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Simple question:

Is the Space Marine Relic Blade two handed

Here is the quote from Page 99 of the SM codex:

"Relic blades are two-handed swords or axes sheathed in an armor-sundering power field. most have their origins in the dark days of the Horus Heresy, although some have been crafted in the long centuries since, in commemoration of other momentous events. Only a Space Marine of long and faultless service can earn the right to wield a relic blade

A relic blade counts as a power weapon whose hits are resolved at Strength 6. Due to its size and weight, a model wielding a relic blade cannot get an extra attack for an additional close combat weapon."

well yes it is, but what does it matter? You can still wield it and another 2 handed weapon on a captain.

Yes, sí, نعم, да, ναί, 예, ja, ใช่, and हां.

Think of it as a power claymore

While it says it is you can still carry and Relic Blade and a Storm Shield

Swords and Axes are NOT close combat weapons. Therefore that first line, like ALL of that paragraph, is fluff

They are one handed because a) they are a power weapon, defined as one handed and b) it then states they do not gain the bonus due to their size and weight

All entirely superfluous if you just wrote that they were two handed.

nosferatu1001 wrote:Swords and Axes are NOT close combat weapons.

I'll just leave that here.

They are one handed because a) they are a power weapon, defined as one handed and b) it then states they do not gain the bonus due to their size and weight

And all power weapons are exactly the same, and there is no such thing as a two handed power weapon.

All entirely superfluous if you just wrote that they were two handed.

Because GW never writes redundant rules?

cmon nos - you're better than that.

In this case, you can imagine it as it NEEDING two hands wo wield.

Nowhere in the RAW states it is two-handed. The model is clearly capable of weilding something else in addition to the blade, and the rule specifically states you don't get the extra +1A for "additional close combat weapon", a line which would be irrelavent if it were two-handed.
QED.

Actually, the Howling Banshee Executioner is a 2-handed power weapon.

Wow. Games like this really bring out people's inner pedant, don't they? I understand the rules lawyering in the case of ambiguous rules that actually matter, but this distinction is completely redundant.

DeathReaper wrote:A relic blade counts as a power weapon whose hits are resolved at Strength 6. Due to its size and weight, a model wielding a relic blade cannot get an extra attack for an additional close combat weapon.

That last bit implies that the weapon is two-handed, because this is exactly how a two-handed weapon works. That, and the fluff describes it as being a two-handed weapon.

So, we have a choice between...

1) Two-handed weapon
2) One-handed weapon that is described as a two-handed weapon in the fluff and also works like a two-handed weapon.

At the end of the day, both give you the same result. I just know which one sounds more sensible to me. RAI FTW.

rigeld2 wrote:

nosferatu1001 wrote:Swords and Axes are NOT close combat weapons.

I'll just leave that here.

They are one handed because a) they are a power weapon, defined as one handed and b) it then states they do not gain the bonus due to their size and weight

And all power weapons are exactly the same, and there is no such thing as a two handed power weapon.

All entirely superfluous if you just wrote that they were two handed.

Because GW never writes redundant rules?

cmon nos - you're better than that.

I beg to differ:

Klaive (DE codex) - Klaives are two-handed power weapons that confer +1 str

It may not be an actual two-handed weapon, but for all intents and purposes, it functions like one. Can someone think of a situation where the distinction would actually matter?

additional cc weapon for a regular power weapon.

If it's one handed you can still get the +1 atk

If the relic blade specifically states you don't get the additional attack, it's probably because you don't have a hand free, but GW is expecting easter egg hunters...

Ascalam wrote:additional cc weapon

If it's one handed you can still get the +1 atk

I know... I probably should have specified what I meant, but hoped I wouldn't have to. I mean, is there any actual difference between "one handed weapon that doesn't allow you to gain bonus attacks for 2 weapons" and "two handed weapon"?

edited my post for clarity above.

Ascalam wrote:If the relic blade specifically states you don't get the additional attack, it's probably because you don't have a hand free, but GW is expecting easter egg hunters...

To be fair, +2S and a 3++ save is an amazing combo that I wish my Wolf Lord could take...

Yes there is.

You can use two single-handed weapons in close combat.

You can only use one two-handed weapon in close combat.

So the question arises:

What happens when a SM honor guard squad model buys a Relic blade?

The model will now have a Power Weapon, Bolt Pistol, and Relic Blade.

How do we determine what weapons he uses in CC?

DeathReaper wrote:Yes there is.

You can use two single-handed weapons in close combat.

You can only use one two-handed weapon in close combat.

So the question arises:

What happens when a SM honor guard squad model buys a Relic blade?

The model will now have a Power Weapon, Bolt Pistol, and Relic Blade.

How do we determine what weapons he uses in CC?

He can choose between the power weapon, gaining +1 attack from the bolt pistol, or the relic blade, gaining no additional attack.

You have 2 choices: Relic Blade or Power Weapon and Bolt Pistol, However due to the fact you have 2 SCCW you would never get a bonus attack for 2 CCW

"a model wielding a relic blade cannot get an extra attack for an additional close combat weapon."

a model wielding, you have to be wielding the relic blade for it to deny the attack.

But this is already being discussed here:
http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/90/393443.page

Sorry DR

For some reason I always thought it was two handed... I thought I read it somewhere either in the codex or a FAQ or something.

*runs off to look up codex and FAQs*

From the FAQ:
The rules for both the relic blade and the storm shield simply state that a model with one of these pieces of wargear cannot have +1 Attack for an additional close combat weapon. Is it therefore possible to equip a model with both a storm shield and a relic blade? (p99, 101)
The rules for two-handed weapons in the rulebook and the rules for storm shields and relic blades are not in contradiction. So you can have both a storm shield and a relic blade, which I think makes for rather cool models!

nosferatu1001 wrote:
Also, as pointed out earlier - the GK FAQ has told us that Fluff CAN = rules, when determining what counts as plasma you ar told to look in the fluff. This means that "melta" isnt needed in the rules for it to count, sadly

This amused me - it's from the Melta Bombs vs Stormraven thread. So if the "Two-handed" is fluff, and fluff can equal rules...

RB and SS is still a valid combination - The only restriction on a 2 handed weapon is that you cannot wield 2 CCWs. The SS isn't a CCW.

Really?

Really?

This is the debate we're having?

We're arguing about a rule that has absolutely no effect on the game.

Grakmar wrote:Really?

Really?

This is the debate we're having?

We're arguing about a rule that has absolutely no effect on the game.

Thank you!

I find it interesting that Nos argues that fluff can = rules and is now saying fluff does not equal rules. As it is, I don't think it matters if the weapon is 2-handed or not. If you use it you don't get the attack for 2 CCW. It's part of the rules. Why does it matter if it's 2-Handed?

I think the question is can he use a SS in addition. Per the rules I would say yes. However per the rules he cannot use two relic blades to gain +1 A.

If he is wielding a Relic Blade he does not get +1 A for CCW (whether or not it's 2-handed has no bearing on this as it's in the rules for the weapon). Per the FAQ, you can wield both a SS and Relic Blade. I have posted the question and answer in its entirety above.