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In the army builder it allows you to have the relic blade and another weapon such as a storm shield or a pistol...

So i would assume no...

Army Builder is absolutely not something to base rules off of.

Happyjew - stop misrepresenting what I said

I said ACCORDING TO GW fluff can now = rules, at least in one case.

Happyjew wrote:The rules for both the relic blade and the storm shield simply state that a model with one of these pieces of wargear cannot have +1 Attack for an additional close combat weapon. Is it therefore possible to equip a model with both a storm shield and a relic blade? (p99, 101)
The rules for two-handed weapons in the rulebook and the rules for storm shields and relic blades are not in contradiction. So you can have both a storm shield and a relic blade, which I think makes for rather cool models!

Although, technically, it appears that this FAQ is from page 4 of Warhammer Armies: Vampire Counts.

Regarding the OP, yes, a Relic Blade is two-handed. It says so right in the description. I'm not sure how this is debatable.

The question and answer are straight from the SM FAQ. Personally I don't see why it matters if it is a two handed weapon or not. Hence the reason I'm not voting. If there was a third option (I.E "Doesn't matter, rules says you don't get bonus attack") then I would vote, but...

Happyjew wrote:The question and answer are straight from the SM FAQ.

See the footer on Page 4.

Happyjew wrote:Personally I don't see why it matters if it is a two handed weapon or not. Hence the reason I'm not voting. If there was a third option (I.E "Doesn't matter, rules says you don't get bonus attack") then I would vote, but...

Agreed.

IMO it's 2H because the rules say it's 2H. If my opponent wants to argue that it's really a 1H weapon and there's no rules distinction between it being 1H and 2H, I'd bow to his interpretation.

Crap, I voted wrong.

It is not a two-handed weapon, but that hardly ever matters given its actual rules.

Huh, never noticed that. Gotta love GW sometimes...

What the hell is this insanity? Of course it is two-handed, can't people read?

Two handed weapons may matter in 6th edition, but we aren't playing 6th right now are we?

As it stands, confirmed from the FAQ, the relic blade is a two handed weapon. Not that it matters right now.

Fluff wise it is two handed. Nothing in the rules says it is two handed though so I would assume it is treated as a one handed weapon (as it is a power weapon) that you mearly can't get the extra attack for having a pistol or other single handed weapon.

I'm confused, where is it stated that power weapons are 1 handed weapons? I can think of 2 different 2-handed power weapons. Aren't all CCW assumed to be 1-handed unless otherwise stated, anyway?

Actually the FAQ doesnt say that. It just mentions that the rules for 2 handed weapons in the rulebook dont contradict the SS and Relic blade. There is an implication

Also: no, swords and axes are NOT CCW, RAW. Note the definition of "normal" close combat weapons has "etc", and never lists swords or axes. As such you need to find something stating it is a CCW. For example marines have combat blades - however they arent CCW, only chainswords are. Its why Tacs dont get additional attacks.

This is a highly technical discussion which shows the difference between rules and fluff. In this case IN FLUFF it is 2 handed, in RULES it is a single handed power weapon that denies the bonus attack due to size and weight.

And I'm still confused as to why it matters whether or not the relic blade is 2-handed.

Happyjew wrote:And I'm still confused as to why it matters whether or not the relic blade is 2-handed.

It doesn't.


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Akroma06 wrote:Fluff wise it is two handed. Nothing in the rules says it is two handed though so I would assume it is treated as a one handed weapon (as it is a power weapon) that you mearly can't get the extra attack for having a pistol or other single handed weapon.

It says clearly it is two-handed in the description. What makes you assume that it doesn't count?

Happyjew wrote:And I'm still confused as to why it matters whether or not the relic blade is 2-handed.

It matters because when a Space Marine honor guard squad model has one, the model will now have a Power Weapon, Bolt Pistol, and Relic Blade.

The relic blade being two handed affects close combat.

How do we determine what weapons he uses in CC?

How does the relic blade being two handed affect combat? 2-handed weapons don't get bonus attack for 2 CCW. The relic blade says you never get a bonus attack for 2 CCW. As you said earlier DR, the whole thing about choosing CCW is in debate in another thread.

DeathReaper wrote:
It matters because when a Space Marine honor guard squad model has one, the model will now have a Power Weapon, Bolt Pistol, and Relic Blade.

The relic blade being two handed affects close combat.

How do we determine what weapons he uses in CC?

Like we normally determine when the model have several different close combat weapons: the player chooses which one to use. In this case the model gets either +2 to str or +1 attack. Where's the problem, and how does it matter whether or not the Relic Blade is two-handed?

I would argue on part of that Crimson but DR already yelled at me once.

Crimson wrote:

Akroma06 wrote:Fluff wise it is two handed. Nothing in the rules says it is two handed though so I would assume it is treated as a one handed weapon (as it is a power weapon) that you mearly can't get the extra attack for having a pistol or other single handed weapon.

It says clearly it is two-handed in the description. What makes you assume that it doesn't count?

It says it in the fluff. Without an FAQ saying that it IS a two handed weapon for game purposes that fluff is not rules.

Akroma06 wrote:
It says it in the fluff. Without an FAQ saying that it IS a two handed weapon for game purposes that fluff is not rules.

And as we are firmly in the territory of rules lawyering, then perhaps you can point me towards the rule that says that all rules material is located in the second paragraph of the weapon's description?

Find me a rule that a Sword is a Normal Close Combat Weapon. If you cannot, then the fact that a relic blade is a 2=handed non-CCW IS important.

nosferatu1001 wrote:Find me a rule that a Sword is a Normal Close Combat Weapon. If you cannot, then the fact that a relic blade is a 2=handed non-CCW IS important.

It says it is two-handed, it says it is a power weapon. Normal close combat weapons have nothing to do with it.

It says it is a 2 handed SWORD.

So it is a 2-handed NOTHING. Because a sword is never defined as a CCW. Making that part of the paragraph have nothing to do with actual rules.

Simple, really. You just need to actually read a sentence, not pick out key words

Happyjew wrote:I find it interesting that Nos argues that fluff can = rules and is now saying fluff does not equal rules. As it is, I don't think it matters if the weapon is 2-handed or not. If you use it you don't get the attack for 2 CCW. It's part of the rules. Why does it matter if it's 2-Handed?

Actually I think he was showing that fluff CAN be rules. Granted it still needs an FAQ to be RAW, but that whole to hit with plasma weapons thing, and what is a deamon for GK was rather vague.

nosferatu1001 wrote:It says it is a 2 handed SWORD.

So it is a 2-handed NOTHING. Because a sword is never defined as a CCW. Making that part of the paragraph have nothing to do with actual rules.

Simple, really. You just need to actually read a sentence, not pick out key words

"CLOSE COMBAT WEAPONS
On the battlefields of the 41st Millennium, close combat remains commonplace - seasoned warriors often bear a deadly array of combat knives and frag grenades, while specialised assault troops take pistols, swords and deadly power weapons into battle."

There.

Also, I'd claim that the rules are written with the assumption that the reader is a human being with at least a moderate grasp of the meanings and implications of common English words, instead of an automated robot. So that we can assume that swords and axes are indeed weapons.

So youre using fluff to justify fluff?

LOL

But are they Normal Close Combat Weapons, which are a defined type under the heading Normal Close Combat Weapons?

Did you miss the "extremely technical" part of my post? I guess you did. Try again.


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Oh, just noticed - frag grenades are CCW now?

Interesting. Or, not.

Fluff is not rules, using fluff to justify other fluff as being rules doesnt work.

nosferatu1001 wrote:So youre using fluff to justify fluff?

LOL

But are they Normal Close Combat Weapons, which are a defined type under the heading Normal Close Combat Weapons?

Did you miss the "extremely technical" part of my post? I guess you did. Try again.


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Oh, just noticed - frag grenades are CCW now?

Interesting. Or, not.

Fluff is not rules, using fluff to justify other fluff as being rules doesnt work.

Do you realise that you arbitrarily adjudge some parts on the text to be fluff and some rules? You cannot do that. This is in rules section of the book. It is all rules, albeit scattered with flavour.

And no, frag grenades are not normal close combat weapons. They are weapons, as are swords.

Rules for normal close combat weapons have absolutely nothing to do with the Relic Blade.

Relic blade is:
1) A power weapon
2) Two-handed sword

Sword is a weapon

Ergo:
Relic Blade is a two handed weapon, and a power weapon.


BTW, do you accept that Nemesis Force Halberd is a two-handed weapon? How about Glaive Encarmine?

Crimson wrote:What the hell is this insanity? Of course it is two-handed, can't people read?

Mod: No need to bite people's heads off.

Kilkrazy wrote:

Crimson wrote:What the hell is this insanity? Of course it is two-handed, can't people read?

Mod: No need to bite people's heads off.

Sorry. Understood.

Can I even nibble a little bit?