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chrisrawr wrote:
My wording is intentionally similar. How would you suggest I further clarify It?

For every unsaved wound caused by the firing unit, the target suffers an additional wound (but what about vehicles?). All types of saving throws can be taken against these wounds as normal. These extra wounds cannot generate fruther additional wounds.

Vehicles don't take wounds, so I don't know where your bracketed question comes from.

Sentence 2 and to a lesser extent 3 are addressed elegantly by the comparison to No Retreat - I'll include the 3rd sentence situationally for now, it just feels inelegant when the rule is already strictly stating that the effects apply only to the shooting of the firing unit.

I recently had a thought, that I figured you might like / would bounce around here on the concept of all fw / all suit /all stealth armies.

As far as I can tell, standard fw armour would

I've got commander Shas'O Kais as a "Firewarrior" commander, allowing for all FW armies. Farsight pretty much replaces all your auxiliary foc slots with crisis suits - I can do the same for shadowsun and stealth/sniper suits.

The problem with Kais is that I can't really see a reason to take regular firewarriors over MACs with him; I suppose I could restrict MACs to auxiliaries, but we'll see what he comes out as.

chrisrawr wrote:
The problem with Kais is that I can't really see a reason to take regular firewarriors over MACs with him; I suppose I could restrict MACs to auxiliaries, but we'll see what he comes out as.

There is actually no reason to take FWs at all. Like you could have two: take them as the compulsory Troops choice and/or take them as SMS delievery squads. Blobbing them up to 24 models seems good, but 240 points for 24 S5 AP5 shots with BS3 is 'bleh'.

Stupid phone screwing up.
Anyway - to continue.
As far as I can tell, standard firewarriors use PX-16 armour.
Stealths are XV15 and 25, and crisis suit / broadsides use the XV8 chasis.

My proposition (that I'm probably going to implement in a reasonably ambitious change.) is making everything a base Shas, in PX-16 armour. This then has the option of being upped to XV-16 / 26 (nonstelth stealth suits, basically a slightly harder fw witj 1-2 hardpoints.), XV-15/25s or XV-8s.

This would lead to less overall entries, though slightly more complex ones, that leads to a significantly more versatile force.

I'd rather not have an Army entry spanning 3 pages

Although I agree that it would be a daring and noble feat of customization efficiency, what you're proposing is closer to a "Create-A-Unit" project, which I would just end up taking CONSIDERABLY further than what I'm hoping to accomplish here

I'll flesh it out better when home and do a mockup using my gw commander entry as a base to see how feasible it'll be + how much space it'd need a page.

I'm thinking for squads do it as the squad leader can upgrade individually, and the rest of the unit has to upgrade together, i.e the hq is an xv-8 while the squad are xv26 or something.

But it'd allow for a large, basic army or a small hyper elite one. Kinds GKish in that regard I suppose.

Final A2 version is out; there's some discrepancies between unit entries and army entries that I need to get to, some hypertext I need to do, and the glossary and table of contents need updating, but besides that and some unit entries being tested, it should be good to go :V

Uh, so after reading through the alpha version, i decided to skip the unit-by-unit analysis, and simply give a general advice instead:

BOOST EVERYTHING (or make them cheaper)!

Yeah, seriously, this codex needs at least an 500% power boost for all units (except Crisis suits and Gunfishes) because it simply lacks killyness and hitting power.

Also, the Honour Guard must be reworked, because they are close-combat Fire Warriors. And those things don't exist.

And some pricing issues must be fixed too (to fully utilize the Drone Harbinger, you must sacrifice 510(!) points for it...).

Oh, and please re-name the multi-fuser back to fusion cascade! The multi-fuser sounds like some sort of AdMech blowtorch.

It's not a fusion cascade. The fusion cascade has D3 shots. Multifusor is more constant, and also unique and different I swear!

Just try using the Honour Guard as a CC unit. I dare you. It'll be hilarious. It's like guardblob but without the bodies. What the honour gaurd does, through repeated playtesting, is provide a psychological 12" bubble of fear; in reality, they're the equivalent of 30-40 BS3 'snipers' in Close Combat. At I3 (sometimes 4). Against 170 points of assault terminators on the charge, they lose as often as not. Add to that the lack of scoring, and the required 60 point VIP they need to be taken, it's really not as "close combat firewarrior" as you think. Also, Kais says "Hi" with his Combat Katana of Khornate Fury.

Harbinger is being looked at for that exact reason; also, only being able to field 1 (effectively) is clunky. Instead, it's going to improve through the tiers by turns, instead, and come with an embarked unit of gun drones at a slight discount.

Battlesuit points are being upped slightly, wargear points on them going down slightly.

Right now, Warriors are point for point better than ork boys just by themselves. With 2 markerlights and 2 airbursts (300 points) there's no contest. So I dunno why you think they need MORE

chrisrawr wrote:It's not a fusion cascade. The fusion cascade has D3 shots. Multifusor is more constant, and also unique and different I swear!

The multi-fusor also has D3 shots.

chrisrawr wrote:Just try using the Honour Guard as a CC unit. I dare you. It'll be hilarious. It's like guardblob but without the bodies. What the honour gaurd does, through repeated playtesting, is provide a psychological 12" bubble of fear; in reality, they're the equivalent of 30-40 BS3 'snipers' in Close Combat. At I3 (sometimes 4). Against 170 points of assault terminators on the charge, they lose as often as not. Add to that the lack of scoring, and the required 60 point VIP they need to be taken, it's really not as "close combat firewarrior" as you think. Also, Kais says "Hi" with his Combat Katana of Khornate Fury.

The exact reason they should be reworked. They are unfluffy and a useless unit.

chrisrawr wrote:Right now, Warriors are point for point better than ork boys just by themselves. With 2 markerlights and 2 airbursts (300 points) there's no contest. So I dunno why you think they need MORE

Whut? 24 FW-s are 240 points. They can kill 7.92 boyz (without cover) per salvo (double as many with rapid fire). 40 Boyz cost 240 points. So you need 4 or 5 turns to kill your 40 boyz. That's pretty much the whole game. And remember, in close-combat, even 10 boyz can annihillate the whole FW blob under a single Assault phase (because they will win the CC)!

I done derped then. Part of that 'editing' I said needed to be done Thanks

They do what they're supposed to; protect the Ethereal. They repel attackers and provide a decent deterrent to deathstars. They let you field something besides kroot at your front lines.

24 Firewarriors is 240 Points. Without cover, they kill 8 ork boys on turn 1, assuming the orks start as close as possible and the warriors start at 30. On turn 2, they move back 6, and kill another 8 - the orks have gained D6". On turn 3, 8 more, and we'll assume they can retreat no further. On turn 4, the firewarriors move forward, kill 16, having taken 0 casualties assuming the orks ran the entire time.

With 4 Markerlights (300 points, or 50 boys), we can run the scenario at BS5 reliably; 13.3r boys per turn.

The more of the support you add, the better they get per point; with seeker missiles, you get ~4-6 free kills per turn@15points, etc.

They can also hide in a devilfish; 12 in a devilfish with is 170, or ~22 boys and a nob w/pklaw. With a multitracker and burst cannon, this thing can literally loop circles all day around the boys, firing off 5-7 S5 shots with chance of pinning below 11 boys. Again, the disparity between points spent on each side only grows the more you add.

This dex was literally built with the aim of not being as good as gray knights; there's no intents of making it overpowered or gimmicky in any area, and pushing any more firepower into firewarriors will make them too good for their role and slot.

Also, 12 firewarriors in a fish can now fish of fury again, using carbines, and especially since I'm putting the Dfish's drone armaments back to pulse carbines; 45 S5 shots at 9".is 15 wounds outside of cover against oeq, 5 against meq, and 18.75 against geq

chrisrawr wrote:They do what they're supposed to; protect the Ethereal. They repel attackers and provide a decent deterrent to deathstars. They let you field something besides kroot at your front lines.

But close-combat Fire Warriors??? Please, at least change their fluff... This whole Honour Guard squad is kind of like the SM Vanguard Squad - put into the Imperial Guard Codex ...

chrisrawr wrote:24 Firewarriors is 240 Points. Without cover, they kill 8 ork boys on turn 1, assuming the orks start as close as possible and the warriors start at 30. On turn 2, they move back 6, and kill another 8 - the orks have gained D6". On turn 3, 8 more, and we'll assume they can retreat no further. On turn 4, the firewarriors move forward, kill 16, having taken 0 casualties assuming the orks ran the entire time.

My point is that 4 turns to kill a single unit is waaaay too much. Because in that 4 turns, the Orks can do anything they want, like capturing objectives or wrecking another unit that is not the 24 FW. Or simply go for cover and GtG for the rest of the game. And what the FWs can do against this? ABSOLUTELY NOTHING. The 24 FW should kill its 40 Ork in 1 or 2 turns (with shooting, their speciality) to be really cost-effective, because normally, the 40 Orks kill the 24 FW in 1 or 2 turns (in cc, their speciality). And don't start with upgardes and support, because the other side also has some stuff to counterbalance ('ard Boyz and Trukks).

chrisrawr wrote:This dex was literally built with the aim of not being as good as gray knights; there's no intents of making it overpowered or gimmicky in any area, and pushing any more firepower into firewarriors will make them too good for their role and slot.

Well, people usually like "too good" units better than sub-par and medicore units. And it isn't a big problem if you make the core Troops selection of your codex good (ref:: Grey Hunters).

chrisrawr wrote:Also, 12 firewarriors in a fish can now fish of fury again, using carbines, and especially since I'm putting the Dfish's drone armaments back to pulse carbines; 45 S5 shots at 9".is 15 wounds outside of cover against oeq, 5 against meq, and 18.75 against geq

FoF is the only way to effectively field FWs in your codex, even while it is rather pricy (12 FW's with 2 markers or SMS and Dfish are 225 points...).

They aren't close combat tau; they're deterrent tau. Their fluff is the same as it's always been, they've just received a minor points and a majour effectiveness buff. They're right there in the Ethereal profile of the 4th edition, I've just made them actually good at their job. You're not forced to take the unit if you don't want it, but there are people who like ethereals and who like to see them alive.

If the orks spend those 4 turns going toward anything else on the map, that means there's other things on the map. Shooting armies get STRONGER the MORE THEY HAVE because they can FOCUS FIRE. 2 240 units of fw's can take out 480 points of orks faster than 1 240 unit of fws can take out 240 points of orks.

'ard armour cuts the numbers almost in half, while only doubling their survivability; they become more susceptible to the pinning effects, faster; inferno missiles become more effective point for point. AV 10-11 opentopped vehicles are so ridiculously bad to field against pulse that it isn't even a legitimate option.

Comparing shooting effectiveness to CC effectiveness is a more intricate mistake; with shooting, you have an effect on one side that has no counter on the other. I shoot you, you take saves, models die; if I make it the same 'strength' as CQC, you can compare it to "first turn assault you get no attacks back against." Which is OP no matter how you look at it. The core of Tau gameplay has always, ALWAYS been outthinking your opponent, using the meta against them even with allcomers lists, and focusing fire without exposing any flanks. It has never been the overwhelming firepower of the guard or space marines, has never been the speed and precision of the eldar, has never been the uncaring monotony of the necrons; making less do more, with overwhelming odds against you - being the underdogs and winning through smarts and tactics, feints and lures, is the Tau way.

225 points for 3 pinning tests and 7 marines a turn isn't bad. Compared to 225 points of guardsmen (4.5 wounds, or if you smack a lascannon, 5 wounds, but no pinning still), 225 points of orks (with shootas we can assume 4 wounds), dire avengers (with exarch and supershooting we can assume 5.8r wounds, but no shooting next turn and no pinning), GK strike (10 with 2 psycannon, stationary, 1.7r from stormbolters and an additional 4.8 from psycannons, or with 10 2 psycanon and psybolt for a bit overpoints, 2.37 + 4.8, but still no pinning)

so I don't know what kind of shooting you're comparing 225p fof to for being 'rather pricy', when it's almost the best shooting you can get in the game for those points at that range.

chrisrawr wrote:If the orks spend those 4 turns going toward anything else on the map, that means there's other things on the map. Shooting armies get STRONGER the MORE THEY HAVE because they can FOCUS FIRE. 2 240 units of fw's can take out 480 points of orks faster than 1 240 unit of fws can take out 240 points of orks.

Why would they take them out faster? Double as many FWs do double as many damage against double as many Orks...

chrisrawr wrote:Comparing shooting effectiveness to CC effectiveness is a more intricate mistake; with shooting, you have an effect on one side that has no counter on the other. I shoot you, you take saves, models die; if I make it the same 'strength' as CQC, you can compare it to "first turn assault you get no attacks back against." Which is OP no matter how you look at it.

Yes, but i compare the effectiveness of shooting specialists to the effectiveness of cc specialists. The two should be the same, because they are specialists. Just as orks can butcher nearly any infantry unit in cc, the FWs should butcher nearly any infantry unit with their shooting. Because hey, they are specialists!

chrisrawr wrote:The core of Tau gameplay has always, ALWAYS been outthinking your opponent, using the meta against them even with allcomers lists, and focusing fire without exposing any flanks. It has never been the overwhelming firepower of the guard or space marines, has never been the speed and precision of the eldar, has never been the uncaring monotony of the necrons; making less do more, with overwhelming odds against you - being the underdogs and winning through smarts and tactics, feints and lures, is the Tau way.

Gosh, but you canot base the style of the army upon such an unstable thing that smart tactics. Because not all Tau players are tactical geniuses, but they still want to play the army and win with it. And simply saying that "If you are not a smart guy, then you shouldn't play Tau." is kind of wrong. And i don't even start with the problem of the smart opponents...

chrisrawr wrote:225 points for 3 pinning tests and 7 marines a turn isn't bad. Compared to 225 points of guardsmen (4.5 wounds, or if you smack a lascannon, 5 wounds, but no pinning still), 225 points of orks (with shootas we can assume 4 wounds), dire avengers (with exarch and supershooting we can assume 5.8r wounds, but no shooting next turn and no pinning), GK strike (10 with 2 psycannon, stationary, 1.7r from stormbolters and an additional 4.8 from psycannons, or with 10 2 psycanon and psybolt for a bit overpoints, 2.37 + 4.8, but still no pinning)

But all these units can do something else... Guardsmen can pack special weapons, shootas can still do cc, DAs are kind of crap, and 10 Strike GK-s with psybolt ammo are 220 points and they have a R30" two-shot pulse rifle...

chrisrawr wrote:so I don't know what kind of shooting you're comparing 225p fof to for being 'rather pricy', when it's almost the best shooting you can get in the game for those points at that range.

10 IG Veterans with 3 plasma guns and Chimera are 170 points, and they can drie around in their mobile bunker shooting all kind of stuff and enjoying the show. They can take on light vehicles, MCs, light and heavy infantry... And they probably have one extra turn of shooting after you popped their Chimera.

Because of morale checks that happen faster. You get it pinned or falling back much sooner, meaning you can focus on the other one much sooner.

They shouldn't be the same, and the reason why was in my last post; CC has a lot of factors that can swing an assault out of favour for a dedicated CC unit; higher init, vehicles moved 7+, enemy ws mitigation, difficult terrain. The only things shooting has to worry about are saves, los, and toughness; the only things tau shooting has to realistically worry about is toughness and los.

"If you are not a smart guy, you shouldn't be good at an activity that requires being a smart guy" is pretty much how real life works. However, you've taken my point out of bounds in order to demonize it; tau is already like this - I was emphasizing my adherence to the rule. Having an opponent smarter than you at a battle of wits win? HOW HORRIFYING. Next you'll be saying that strong people shouldn't be allowed to be better at weight lifting competitions, or that we should give weaker entries special props to aid their feeble arms. This bit might be a bit rude, but there shouldn't be an offended reaction to suggesting that smart people get to be better at things than other people. Observable facts triumph over sensibilities in the realm of science!

220 points of gk's is, again, 22 fw's, meaning you're still getting more shots at 30", and you're getting more than double shots at <15". AND you're pinning in many cases.

10 IG vets with 3 plasma guns in a chimera is a very sturdy choice, especially in the current meta. I have no qualms about FW's not being as good at that kind of points as chimvets. The goal is balance, not exploitable goodies hidden in mediocrity.

chrisrawr wrote:Because of morale checks that happen faster. You get it pinned or falling back much sooner, meaning you can focus on the other one much sooner.

But the Orks are Fearless until they drop below 10 models, so only the last salvo will force any moral/pinning tests.


And about the "Tau is not for non-smart guys", i can see your point, but this approach is very player-hostile. Because, you know, the big thinking and outsmarting can easily kill the fun. You can see this happening a lot with the current Tau codex (and this is the source of most of the codex-loathing).

Eh, i've found the most codex loathing has come from the perceived 'mecha anime fan', - most humans think of themselves as 'competent and intelligent,' so saying "you must be competent and intelligent to use this codex" will self-identify with most people.

Yes; the orks are fearless. Instead of taking 4 turns to pin them, it takes 2. Meaning instead of 5 turns to kill the unit, you can take 3; then, it's 2v1 - you can split forces and force the orks to choose, one or the other. That's the power of ranged combat - no retaliation means that your forces are left over while theirs are diminished. Your army gets STRONGER while making theirs WEAKER - which is why you can't make it as powerful as CC, which requires you to sacrifice to make it..

chrisrawr wrote:
Yes; the orks are fearless. Instead of taking 4 turns to pin them, it takes 2. Meaning instead of 5 turns to kill the unit, you can take 3; then, it's 2v1 - you can split forces and force the orks to choose, one or the other.

Oh! Here lurks the misunderstanding! So no, it isn't 2v1 but 2v3 because the size of the boy mob is 10-30. So the 2x24 FW must face 2x30 and 1x20 boy.

And it is enough to get through 10 boys for each FW blob, because 10 ork boyz can kill 24 FWs rather easily. The 60 other boys are essentially only there to soak up damage.

If you're going at it that way, on turn 1 or 2, the first ork blob takes 2 pinning tests and a morale. The second gets them on turn 2-3 depending on the pinning/running state of mob 1, and the third (only 20 men) gets annihiated on turn 3-4 depending on the states of blob 1 and 2. Meanwhile, orks 1 and 2 are on virtual turn 2-3 if they were pinned, but are both also within pinning/morale range. The smaller you make a blob of orks, the easier it is to ff it down.

chrisrawr wrote:If you're going at it that way, on turn 1 or 2, the first ork blob takes 2 pinning tests and a morale. The second gets them on turn 2-3 depending on the pinning/running state of mob 1, and the third (only 20 men) gets annihiated on turn 3-4 depending on the states of blob 1 and 2. Meanwhile, orks 1 and 2 are on virtual turn 2-3 if they were pinned, but are both also within pinning/morale range. The smaller you make a blob of orks, the easier it is to ff it down.

So you kill the 80 ork under the same time span (~4 turns) with 48 FWs than the 40 ork with the 24 FWs.

At less risk, with more chance of pinning/morale, while remaining farther away. Yes.

chrisrawr wrote:At less risk, with more chance of pinning/morale, while remaining farther away. Yes.

But still, for 4 truns, they do nothing, but occasionally withdraw and focus fire on a unit that worths the same ammount of points as the FWs! This is ridiculous for a unit that is specialized on ranged anti-infantry shooting. And we are only speaking about ork boyz, and not about say Space Marines (15 SMs for 240 points, the FWs can kill 2.6 per salvo... so you need 5.76 salvo to kill them that is around 5-6 turns).

Compare it by squad size and effective damage

10 Space marines is 170 points and have an effective range of 18. 17 Firewarriors is 170 points and have an effective retreat range of 24. Space marines require ~3 turns of running just to fire their weapons on the 4th, or they can stand still and do nothing to fire on the 3rd.

17 fws is 1.8r marines a turn. On turn; on turn 4 they get 3.7r wounds, meaning that over 4 turns they kill 9.4r marines, leaving either 4.3r marines single-firing or 0.6 doubletappers leftover to do anything at all - working out to .963 firewarriors, or .2r firewarriors. As well, from turn 2 on there's a 1/8 chance of pinning the marines.

Again this is a vacuum in which neither squad does anything but attempt to engage the other.

Compared to 30 Slugga Orks and 10 Marines starting with the same intentions, the marine player can kill 3.3r on turn 1 suffering no casualties, another 3.3r on turn 2, can charge with bolt pistols for 3.3r on turn 3 if the orks dont roll a 6, kill ing 4.8 more before the orks strike back, (assuming each ork is in range), killing 2.5 and taking 2 casualties to cc consolidation. Marines slowly die over the rest of the engagement. Against Shoota Boys, the scenario is even worse for Marines.

I'd rather take effectively 0 casualties, than suffer either of the above engagements.

For comparison with another 'shooty' unit,

8 GK marines with psybolts and a psycannon is 180. Against 30 orks. Assuming 24" beginning engagement (for maximum effect from gk), turn 1 the orks lose 6.2r to stormbolters and another 2.2r to psycannon. Moving 6 away turn 2, they unleashe another 7.3r, bringing the total down to 14.2r remaining orks, which get the charge if they're lucky, or get destroyed if they're not. If they get the charge, they lose 2.25 before striking back killing 4 gks. The GK's slowly die over the next 3-4 turns. This is a 16% chance of the GK squad being removed compared to a 2% chance of the FW's getting destroyed (Due to repeat 6" runs from the orks)


tl;dr - in a vacuum, the effective range of firewarriors with nothing else easily outclasses many units in many scenarios through just shooting alone.

Uh, i think you miss my point. All those unit you brought up are not that specialized as FWs. They can do a lots of stuff, going CC, tanking damage, take special weapons and hunt something else other than infantry. But FW-s can just go ahead and shoot up things. They cannot go into cc (obviously), they cannot tank damage (they are T3 sv4+), and they can only take the SMS as an ad-hoc special weapon that is usually one-shot and overall costs a lot (because you need to buy the Seeker Missiles for the SMS). And in their job, the FWs simply isn't point effective! They basically cannot kill enough stuff to bring their points back (thats why i brought up the 240 points of FW vs 240 points of boyz problem)! So ultimately, they become either the minimal scoring unit choice as they are in the current codex, or you take them on the pretty risky FoF mission.

I definitely didn't miss your point; Comparing the shootings of various units, including 'shooty' units, Fire Warriors come out ahead time after time in terms of staying alive and staying out of range. Boyz and MEQs can indeed go into CC and tank damage with some decency - TEQ even moreso. However, their points costs and armaments reflect this - Marines and boyz can't glance REQs in most cases outside of CC. They don't come with nearly as many options for heavy weapons (up to 8 rail rifles and 4 pulse snipers in a unit of 24 fws, allowing for 20+ MEQ kills per turn at 500 points, which makes up their points in 2 turns of ~30" shooting.)

tl;dr - you can't cry "But what about negative outside factors!" without assuming positive outside factors as well.

Also, Fire Warriors aren't "specialized" in the respect you're thinking of. They're dedicated shooting units, and as thus they have some of the best shooting in the game. A specialized shooting unit would be something like the Eldar's Fire Dragons, or in Tau's case, Broadsides.

Firewarriors are meant to provide a solid scoring troop that can damage many light vehicles, force pinning tests, and become increasingly potent the closer they get without needing to engage in close combat. They're very generalized, with a bent toward lightly armoured or weak targets (lawn mowing). If I wanted a unit that could hunt elites, I would take crisis suits with plasma, or sniper suits. Much easier to make up your points with 100 points of sniping (1 S8 AP2 2d6 line and 2 S6 AP3 1d6 lines, averaging 8.5 meq or 2.25 teq each turn.)

Edit; You might enjoy the change to the Drone Harbinger, though - it's at 240 points and comes with 12 drones inside of it .

Drone Harbinger: The Harbinger gains power based on how long Drones are embarked in it.

As long as a Drone Squadron is embarked, the vehicle gains the Fast Type. At the end of each consecutive turn in which a Drone Squadron has been embarked for the entire turn, the Drone Harbinger gains a cumulative effect.

● At the end of the First turn a Drone Squadron has been embarked, any Drones embarked may fire as if the Harbinger was Open-Topped.

● At the end of the Second turn a Drone Squadron has been embarked, the Drone Harbinger gains the following ability to create Drone Squadrons - At the beginning of your Movement Phase, roll 2D6, and place a Drone Squadron with that many Drones within 6” of the Harbinger. Each Drone created this way is equipped with a Pulse Carbine. If doubles are rolled, the Harbinger may create no more Drones in this way for the remainder of the game.

● At the end of the Third turn a Drone Squadron has been embarked, the Drone Harbinger may fire all of its weapons regardless of speed, and ignores Shaken results.

● At the end of the Fourth turn a Drone Squadron has been embarked, any Drones embarked count as a Scoring Unit while they are embarked. They may fire their weapons during the Shooting Phase unhindered by the state of the Drone Harbinger (speed, damage results, etc.)

Oh gosh, i give up . You can keep the FWs as they are, just put in Farsight to allow Crisis suits as Troops !

So next up: Pathfinders. Why the mandatory sniper? And why 20 ppm ?

Sorry about being stubborn about firewarriors - they've been very, very effective for me and for my playtesters. Decreasing their points or increasing their options really, really will make them too powerful.

Farsight is allowing crisis suits as auxiliaries in all slots. Meaning up to 2 troops, 4 elites, 1 hq 1 fa 1 hs can be crisis suits (allowing up to 65 suits in total!).

Pathfinders are being rolled about to be BS4 with a special ability that lets unsaved wounds by them apply markerlights. It lets you play off shooting for damage if you want to stand still; within 24" they're Ratlings plus. They're 20ppm because 180 points of PF's (includes Dfish) allows any of your other units to effectively use any markerlight option - i.e. they're 5 point ratlings+ with markerlights.

And you can see how "popular" Ratlings are.... And the biggest problem with PFs are their lack of survavibility. 100 points for 5 carapace guardsmen who will be a piority 1 target for my opponent feels a bit... wasted.