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I dunno what you're on about with the quotations, ratlings are freakin' awesome.

With the saturation of markerlights in the army, the change to assault from heavy (and subsequently the ability to begin play embarked in a dpod fish), pathfinders being taken out is less of a problem than it used to be - the BS5 markerlight and assault change alone warrants 20 points.

That they've been given a hyperefficient option for minor offensives, especially with the changes coming to sniper weapons in 6e, is the kind of bonus that makes up for the mandatory dfish. Remember, Pulse weapons get an extra shot at half range; 24" becomes heavy 2 for their snipers.

Hi!

So, testing days are over, and after nearly a dozen battles, i can confidently say that the codex is rather... ailing in a competitive enviroment. i successfuly recruited one of my friends to help testing, and he pretty much confirmed this.

The main problems are:
- Everything is a tad bit overpriced. Mostly the stuff that is really useful (Broadsides, Missile Pods, Pathfinders). This sadly limits the legitimacy of nearly all other units and options. Some could be taken, but only as a min-max option (Fire Warriors) while the others remain fancy options for crazy fun games (Sniper Suits, Stingwings).
- On this note, the usefulness of the selections are very distinctive, as there are the very good, must-have units (Crisis suits, Commander) the good units (Broadsides, Gunfish tanks) the medicore units (FWs, Kroots, Stealth Suits), the bad units with a slight chance of salvation (Sniper Suits, Pathfinders, Stingwings, Wilting Sorrow, Barracuda) and the trash can (everything else).
- The options are also somewhat overpriced (Markerlights) or simply underpowered (Iridium Armour).
- The lack of Blacksun Filter is simply annoying, you should bring it back.
- Oh, and the points cost for weapons should be rounded up/down to be divisible with 5.
- Its kind of a general design problem, but a few units and options badly overshadow other units/options. The HQ is ruled by the Commander, the Elites is a section for Crisis suits, the HS is dominated by Gunfishes and Broadsides. Same for the weapons: the Missile Pod+Fusion Cascade is a lethal combo, and taking anything else is kind of a waste.
- Also, some rules needs clarification. Like the sacrifice of drones (as it stands now, i can sacrifice only one drone to make an auto-success Hit and Run).
- And it is a sad thing that the best things in the codex need so much point and tactical investments that they rarely worth the effort. The best example is pinning: you usually need like 7 Markerlight tokens to pin down a unit (4 for Courage and 3 for -3 Ld). So for 105 points, you can pin down one enemy unit for one turn.
- And before i forget: pleeeease, give me something that helps against enemy all-reserve tactics! Those really kill the army as a whole !
- A last thing: suits should be 4(5) and 3(4) because it is kind of odd that a Crisis is more durable than a Land Raider against an S9 shot (and the same for Stealth Suit/Devilfish/S7 shot).

Overall, i won two battles (one against mech IG, and one against a DoA BA), lost 7 (2 Wipe Outs), and made 2 draws (against GK henchmen army and an Ork Kan Wall). i tried out several army lists mostly at the 1750 points range, but ultimately sticked with the usual Crisis build, as the others were rather lackluster.

First of all, thank you so much for your time and for your input and feedback, it's been greatly helpful.

When playing against some competetive lists, you lost against some of the more common netlists, using general crisis lists? This is about right what I'm aiming at, actually. There are some issues you bring up that I've addressed, and some that I'll address because of you

If you'd really wanted to win, (i.e. test competitively with codecies who also suffer from ridiculous internal balance) you'd have gone with Dual TL Plasma or Dual TL Multifusor suits. @64/78 points, they put out 1.6r TEQ or 2.5 MEQ per turn at effective 30". They also act as lawnmowers for lesser troops, and greatly benefit from any kind of support. Their only problem is vehicles; Stocking your reserve with Meltas, Baracudas, and Piranhas with Fusion Blasters and melta missiles are all options. You then take a couple firewarrior carbine support units, stick em in a devilfish, slap an HQ onto something, and fill the remaining points with broadsides. Hell, go all out with outflanking broadsides.

Example List:
HQ
Shas'El plasfusionray - 85p
SMS - 100

Elites
Shas'Ui DualTLPlas - 78
x5 = 390
x3 = 1170

6 FW - 60
x2 = 120

Broadside - 100
x3 = 300

2 Melta Missiles - 60
= 1750

Gives you 3 big fancy shots, 2 small scoring units to draw fire, 3 fat units literally spewing plasma, and an HQ with a multimelta that can call out a couple missiles for more melta.

That 390 point CS squad can kill 8.3r assault termies per turn. It kills 16.6r regular termies, 25 marines, 1.16r rhinos, instant deaths most DE and GEQ units, devours monstrous creatures, and even kills a goddamn wraithlord. It also has 15 S5 hits in assault against vehicle rear, making landraiders and stormravens the only thing in the game that stand against it for long. It's mobile. It's powerful. It's scary. It has literally 2 weaknesses - armour and assault - and this codex has the tools to get around both.

Compared to dual TL multifusor suits (64 points, 24" range that puts them into assault range almost immediately but which do admittedly kill a lot more), I find plasma a fine alternative. This will, however drive up the cost of the multifusor, and I think I'll be dropping it to 12" range as well if anything. There's not enough cost-risk benefit to not take it; 30% chance to kill a raider@9", 12.4r assault termies or 24.8r regular termies, 30 marines, etc.

Thanks for bringing that up!

On Broadsides overpriced: I overjacked both the Broadside and Sniper Suit and have been torquing them down slowly to comfortable levels. Thanks for more feedback on this!.

On Missile Pods overpriced: 2 TL mpods on a crisis suit is 64 points. 2 TL autocannons on a hydra is 75. I think they're fine :I

Pathfinders: The lowest I can honestly go for these is 18 points per model - at 17ppm they're literally too good. Dunno if that does anything for you. Devilfish is getting slightly less pointscost though, so should help.

I still don't see the gripe against stingwings. Would giving them A2 work?

Is there anything particular with the barracuda and wilting sorrow you find wrong? They've been powerful force multipliers for me so far - having a dedicated lawnmower/antimeq in my force has been doing wonders so far.

Everything else includes: Piranhas, drones (these ARE jetbikes, by the way), kroot savages (a decent first turn assault unit your opponent won't expect of Tau), drone harbingers (significantly improved), and MACs.

>Piranhas are one of the better units in the codex imho. They punish and punish and punish your enemy for mistakes, create distractions, and wreckface in general.

>Drones received a bit of a facelift resulting in QOL improvements and a power buff. I've never found drones to be a competitive idea in general, but they're there for those people who like neat things.

>Savages can be S5 I5 T1 Assault units, and have also gone down a few points to 14; 10 with a Master Shaper improving the squad's I is 231 points. Against Meq, they get off 11 attacks at I6 on the charge for 5.6r hits, for 1.47r wounds, with the remaining 34 at ini 5, for 4.2w; their power however comes simply from the ability to assault first turn, or sit in ~3+ cover and be ominous. They're far more powerful against less armoured foes and against transports with their S6 option - which is where they're generally taken.

>Harbingers now start spewing drones on turn 2, give you a free chunk of drones, and a lot more like the mass of moving sentient metal they were designed to be.

>MACs were dropped to 14 points per model.They'll get a lot neater when the Firewarrior commander comes out.

Markerlights are looking at 12 points. Now that lists are focusing on them less with the emergence of other options, they still need to be fitted in and their costs are prohibiting this. FNP is popping down to 10 Points with Iridium Armour. Iridium Armour IS receiving a change, along with your last point; Suits are going to T4(5), with Iridium Armour granting immunity to ID from wounds of high strength value.

Suppressive Fire for Firewarriors is getting a change; it's a Markerlight-based ability that reduced the movement of the unit by 1" per markerlight token spent (only if they wound the unit). This means that yes, a squad of firewarriors can fairly consistently 'pin' a squad each turn - and that they work incredibly efficiently with Pathfinders.

Blacksun filter is coming back as part of the Command Helm, replacing the Acute Senses it now grants; this makes leaders with BSF and markerlights very good for your units agaun.

I will say, the numbers I used above are for the current version of the uploaded dex. Right now the Commander costs base 60. Suits are Base 35. I don't know why you'd take MP+MF instead of 2MF, tbh.

The sacrifice for drones - yes. If you have a drone controller with only 1 drone, saccing that drone is H&R. If you have 2 Drone Controllers with 2 Drones each, saccing both from 1 controller is H&R. The wording was typo'd - any should have been all. Nice catch!

I think our stances on the power of pinning a unit vary - I find pinning a unit to be one of the most effective things you can do; I wanted guaranteed pinning to feel like an accomplishment you set up and delivered with unavoidable determination. Perhaps you're right though; I'll play around with Courage at 3, Wrath at 2, and Harvest down at 4. Seeker Missiles are going to require 2 Tokens to be on the unit, but will only spend 1. SMS range will increase to 36.

How about "When an enemy unit arrives from Reserve, you may immediately target and fire a single Reserve Seeker Missile at it. You must otherwise abide by the normal rules for Seeker Missiles and the Seeker Missile Reserve (i.e. only 1/5th per turn)." ? It spends your resources, is fairly limited, but boosts the power and adaptability of the SMR overall, encouraging you to use it more.

Addressed above; Iridium Armour makes them beefcakes. FNP dropped to 10 points because it's basically Iridium Armour lite. Shield Generator is still too badass to be 10 points. 94 points for a T5 2+/4++ hydra isn't bad, I think - 27 rapidfire BS4 bolters, to kill it on average which is the exact same for an open-topped AV10. For 104 points, though, you have to shoot it with 54 rapidfire BS4 bolters. For reference, it only takes 8 RF BS4 bolters to kill a termi, and termies don't put out as much firepower. Points for points though, Crisis Suits are roughly balanced against termies for what they each do.

As I said above - Played competetively, your list could've used some minmaxing with the current version, but I'm also not aiming for the codex to be as blatantly power creeped as the current netlists.

As i said, the problems with the bad units are not specific problems, but rather "job stealing" (when another unit does the same, only better) or "christmas tree" (when the unit has lots of haphazard equipement/special rules).

Two examples:
- Stealth Suits (they mostly suffer from "job stealing"): i guess they are 30 points because of their 'Veil of Tears', but it doesn't help them that much if you want to play them fluffy (but it helps a lot when you abuse it with long-range weapons!). Drop their cloaking distance back to 2D6x3, make them T3(4) and drop their points cost to 20-25 points (i'm leaning towards 20 because they still compete with Crisis suits, only without all those deadly weapon options). I would say, putting them to the Fast Attack selection is also a good idea...
- Pathfinders (they mostly suffer from "christmas tree": Simply replace their pulse snipers with pulse carbines (make pulse snipers as a squad weapon option), and drop their points to 14-15 ppm.

I thought the Stealth Suits in 4E already had 2D6x2? I don't know why they need to be T3(4) - they only have 1 wound, so any wound is instant death

Replacing the pulse snipers wouldn't lower their costs. I can't lower their cost much more, despite how fun it is to spam markerlights and ruin all your opponent's cover and dignity; they're point-for-point the cheapest markerlights I can give the empire at this power. The snipers were just to increase their situational ability. WIth 6E cover rules on the horizon, we should see the prevalence of 4+ cover dropping in general.

How is this for Suppressive Fire, then - It should be a serious boost to Firewarriors of any size unit


Suppressive Fire:
Fire Warriors may spend Markerlight Tokens on the Suppressive Fire Effect.
For each Markerlight Token spent this way, the Target Unit's movement is reduced by 1” during its next turn (An exception to the usual limitation of Markerlight Effects).
This movement reduction is limited to the number of unsaved wounds inflicted by the Firing Unit.
Beyond that, the reduction is improved by -1” for each Pinning Test the Target Unit is subject to this Shooting Phase.

After oodles of playing with it, suppressive fire has gone to:
Suppressive Fire: For 1 Markerlight Token, the Target Unit must take a Ld Test with a -1 Ld Modifier for each Unsaved Wound inflicted by the Firing Unit.

Fearless Units get a +3 bonus to the result of this Test.

For each Markerlight Token spent on this Effect after the 1st, an additional Ld Test must be taken, and the Penalty for each Ld Test increases by -1.

Each time the Target Unit fails one of these Ld Tests, it receives a penalty of -2” to all of its Movement and -1BS until the end of its next turn.


On top of this, many changes in the current dex, found in this post as well as on the front page. One big thing is the re-stripping of burst cannons; slapping down 20 crisis suits with as many heavy burst cannons as possible was one of hte most ridiculous, OTT things fielded in the history of history, and I can't believe I didn't notice it immediately. So, I swapped it down to 2 grades (as normally, 2 weren't being used at all). The Burst Cannon has been upped to 4 shots, and is 4 points (5 twinlinked). The HBC is now simply 36" rnage, and 18 points (24 twinlinked) putting it on par with the plasma rifle - where it is against stormshield terminators and anything with worse than 3+ save.- it's wonderfully efficient at scrapping light vehicles and mowing down units; it's a warwalker, but for 80 points instead of 60

Another is the inclusion of many of the heavy weapons on a few of the units that hadn't seen them before; heavy Ion cannons made their way to both the drone harbinger and gunfish for reasonable costs, and the pulse repeater, gravity gun, and railgun can be found on the barracuda from time to time.

Lots more neat little changes all around the dex, including in the guevesa lines ( Still need to port over the ordnance and russ batteries for ease of cross-dex reference). Check it out!

Nice! I was just about to suggest making the BC 4 shots. I mean they have 4 barrels on the gun haha. I was looking through the Grey Knights Codex the other day and they had this weapon that fire like 12 shots from one gun. Perhaps we should get something like that? Like a seeker missile that has a cluster of tiny rockets in it. Well something like that.

Number of barrels doesn't always correspond to rate of fire.

Though I do like the cluster warhead idea.. Instead of a blast or some causes 2d6 wounds. Maybe wtr 6-7 ap4 instead of s8 ap3...

Well yeah but I just want an excuse to make the BC a more viable option. And yeah I just figured the Tau should or could have something like that.

If I do a clusterfire, it'll be something along the lines of the old SMS, not necessarily a missile. The missile idea you guys are describing can be better attributed to the Airburst, where multiple plasmatic missiles split off a special tracking rocket which designates their destinations with accuracy - a simple refluff, in other words.

Cluster-Missile Rack

Range:12-60 Strength: X AP: 5 Special: Heavy *, Detonation

X: The strength of this weapon is determined by Detonation.
*: The number of shots this weapon has is determined by Detonation.

Detonation: When you fire this weapon at an enemy unit, place a small blast or similar marker at a point between the firing unit and its target. This weapon does nothing this turn.

At the beginning of your opponent's next Shooting Phase, before he takes any voluntary actions, draw distance from the center of the marker to the Target Unit and consult the following chart:

0-6": 2D6 S7 hits.
7-12": 1D6 S6 hits.
13-24": 1D3 S5 Hits
25-60": 1 S5 Hits
61"+: No Effect.

Twinlinking this weapon allows you to re-roll the number of hits, picking the highest set between the two.


The reasoning behind it - it's a smart-fire missile rack with a delayed timer on the missiles themselves; Since they're easy targets for any sort of automated system to shoot down due to their heat signature, the Tau have adapted to firing them 'off' from the racking first, in order to get them close without being detected, and then activating their powerful thrusters. The closer they are, the more damage they can do. It also gives them incentive to move away from it, and therefore, you. Unless he's got jump packs, but then, you were screwed anyways

I like it, but I do find the dex a bit hard to read and understand. I might just be used to the old Tau dex though, and I think some of the things don't have point values or I am just stupid and can't read it right. Anyway perhaps we could have a commander that makes pathfinders troop choices? And perhaps so vehicle upgrades for suits? I would actually love to have Flechette (spelling?) dischargers on my suits and fire some seeker missiles from them too.

The seeker missile rules seem kind of confusing but I like it. However I think the distances should moved back a bit and still retain their punch. But overall not too bad!

Yeah, I'm hoping that once all the hyperlinks are up and running, everything will be a lot smoother - I'll have a page dedicated to explaining the Army List entries and another to the Unit Entries.

Everything should have a points value - point out any I'm missing, please! D:

Pathfinders as troop choices.... Hmm, I'll work on that. Could be very, very interesting

I deigned to put the Flechette Launchers ant Seeker Missiles on Drones - You can have 6 drones in your elites suits and up to 8 per commander/bodygguard combo; very good at deterring CC, especially if you have them plasmablade/plasmagun shield generator and 2+ armour.

Good, sorry but I am pretty stupid when it comes to organizing things like units and wargear.

Where are the point values? I could just be looking at the wrong page, no worries!

And yes I think so, if they could be taken as a troop choice I would probably take them over FW's A lot of markerlights and some rail rifles. Boooooyah!

I like the Flechette drones and seeker drones. And wow thats a lot of drones. I am guessing their best use is a sacrifice type of drone to avoid CC?

Keep up the good work man!

Yup! Drones are for utility at range, and sacrifice in close combat.

The points costs are all in the Army List Entries, during the last 15 or so pages. They're to the right of the names, after the ............'s

Ohhhhh, got it thanks!

The ODST guys are rage inducing. They have superior weapons to storm troopers (AP 2 over AP 3 as well as assault 2 instead of Rapid fire), superior leadership, preferred enemy against Imperials which are about 80% of all armies, and best of all they are auxiliaries so you can take up to four squads of them, for only four points more than storm troopers. Why do these random weeaboos have weapons better than not only Imperial Storm Troopers, but Fire Warriors, and such good leadership? It wouldn't be half as bad if there were inferior human auxiliaries, but this just hurts. It is like humans come in, they are ultra determined soldiers (superior leadership to space marines, and Storm Troopers who were raised from childhood to serve the Imperium, storm troopers being educated alongside commissars and SoBs), and the Tau decide to give them their best weapons and use them as special forces.

Edit: Forgot rending in close quarters for your ODST

TBH if you want human auxiliaries I would tone down their weapons and special rules unless they were brainwashed from childhood or something. Also, weak Gue'vasa should exist as a troop choice, pretty much guardsmen with no preferred enemy (why would they particularly hate Imperials, if anything they would pull their punches against other humans) and the ability to take Tau weapons and armour. Something like 10 man squad for 50 points, any member can take a pulse rifle or carbine for 3 points and FW armour for 3 points, perhaps let them take SWs (flamer, plasma rifle, fusion blaster) and HWs (burst cannon (make it heavy 3 on foot), rail rifle) like normal guardsmen can to make them something like heavy and versatile fire warriors. They might not have marker lights, they might not have the best weapons at low costs, but they provide the ability to field infantry with special weapons and heavy weapons, which is something the Tau don't normally get.

Also, plasma blades on battlesuits seems bad, Tau should almost always fold in hand to hand outside of very lucky dice rolls. The whole reason battlesuits get JSJ and your army gets Kroot is so that you can avoid hand to hand with your weak Tau. Adding these things just goes against fluff and the way the army was originally made.

I honestly can't tell if your serious or just trolling. Remember its just a fan dex, plus why can't we have SOME over the top stuff, just about every other army does.

Fralethepalewhale wrote:I honestly can't tell if your serious or just trolling. Remember its just a fan dex, plus why can't we have SOME over the top stuff, just about every other army does.

Not saying you can't, but it ANGERS me. Beyond the fluffrape it is just awkward, the Tau grab random humans, they give them super guns, they give them the best regular armour they can, they give them fancy plasma swords, they give them the means to deepstrike, and for some reason the soldiers are Imperial haters with the same leadership as a commissar or a veteran space marine.

Also, the wimpier Gue'vasa was completely serious, that is a great niche for human auxiliaries to fill. They are more technologically inclined than Kroot, they are bigger and tougher than Tau, why not get them to lob bigger guns around to support the Tau FWs when a battlesuit isn't nearby?

As for the battlesuit blades, you don't know how good you guys have it when it comes to evading hand to hand. All the IG gets are some overpriced Ogryn who are inferior to boyz with the same total cost, and rough riders who are too soft to actually act like a shield. You guys have Kroot who can infiltrate, and you can jump out of cover, shoot, and jump back into cover. Not that I am complaining about IG, we do have it great, but you should work with your strengths, boost Kroot, make it easier to avoid H2H if you have to, but I would suggest trying to make the Tau like every other army with tons of power weapons everywhere.

Well I mean they are ODST, sooo they are trained pretty well. And since the Tau see that they are more specialized then the run of the mill Gue'vasa they decide to equip them better and since they have rugged training and I am assuming some combat experience they are hardened and won't break so easily and when you add that to their hardcore belief in the Greater Good you have some pretty BA soldiers. And well yeah they are Imperial haters I mean they left the IoM in pursuit of something else and they must have seen something pretty good to risk losing their lives by leaving the IoM. So that's probably why they have such a strong hatred for the IoM. Of course this is all purely my speculation and it may vary depending on the person. One more thing I don't really see how this is fluffrape...?

I understand the crappy Gue'Vasa. But ehhhhh...

I mean we have the JSJ but your only moving 12in and with most assault orientated armies they will have no problem getting into combat with the suits. And yeah the IG have crappy CC units but you guys also have massive blobs of infantry and a lot of tanks to help make up for it. We have suits that can JSJ which is mehhh at best. And Kroot which according to my knowledge are basically Orks with a lower toughness and no armor save. And not in the numbers the Orks have. I mean yeah can field a decent amount but there will always be more boyz! And when you look at it Kroot are still kind of mehhh. The whole Tau dex is really just kind of mehhh.

I really am not trying to start a fight on here, I hope you know that!

TBH the infantry blobs and hordes of tanks are overrated. Blobs are nice all around, but in the end you spend 300+ points for a horde of men with Lasguns that can barely hold their own against a basic SM squad. As for the tanks, 9 tanks is great, except when your tanks are grouped in threes so you end up using three tanks to kill a squad of infantry that one could have killed. But, once again, not complaining we have BS 4 infantry for 7 PPM and a cheap transport.

But with JSJ you can make a line of Kroot, jump over them, shoot, and jump behind them. You get a 4+ cover save (IIRC troops offer 4+ I may be wrong) and the enemy has to assault the Kroot to get to you, giving you a turn to hop away.

Anyway, back on topic, I am not complaining about the ODST per se, I am simply stating that it seems OTT. For example, you could perhaps make their guns different, perhaps give them AP 4 str 5 guns, makes you better against hard targets, but doesn't invalidate TEQs completely. Perhaps instead of Ld 9 you can lower it to 8, which is the same Ld as most elite units. Perhaps you can remove their preferred enemy on all Imperials (because you would get it against 90% of armies). With that you can lower the point cost down to 14 or so PPM, which gives you a relatively cheap unit that has the ability to kill high toughness models, but can't simply kill TEQs by firing 40 AP 2 shots at them. Your choice of course.

As for fluffrape, it might have been a tad extreme, but the unit is OTT, I mean unless fluffwise the unit is made up of brainwashed humans it makes little sense. The humans living in the Tau Empire were effectively forced to join or die yet are still allowed to worship the emperor. Such an environment does not exactly breed people that would particularly hate the Imperium and be particularly loyal to the Tau. Also, the Tau seem somewhat unwilling to give away their tech to mercenaries, allies, and subjugated peoples, Kroot still use their crappy guns, IIRC existing Gue'Vasa get like 3 pulse weapons per squad and their crappy flak armour.

Lastly on the "crappy Gue'Vasa" I can understand your sentiments, but the guardsmen aren't really crappy. If you want to field them as firewarriors they suck, they cost 13 points for the same equipment and get no marker lights. The point however is to use them as support. For example, you might use Humans as a screen for battlesuits, line them up between the battlesuit and the enemy, battlesuits JSJ, guardsmen mop up with their good but inaccurate weapons, or if the enemy is weakened enough, by charging. Also, that is the PERFECT unit to give power weapons to since they could have simply entered the Tau empire with them. An IG squad surrenders to Tau, Sergeant has a power sword, he brings it with him now that he serves the Tau.

Uh, do you know any math hammer, or play any actual games?... or have any reading comprehension?

There are inferior human auxiliaries. Check just after the Fire Warrior entry.

Not saying I don't enjoy criticism, but you're backing a position with no evidence, and making a lot of assumptions.

I'll address your issues from top to bottom.

For one, you can take 7 squads of them. For 875 Points - 20 Terminators. No competition, there, and in order to do so, you compete with Crisis Suits, Stealth Suits, Sniper Suits, and Savages.

What sort of cognitive dissonance lets you get away with using the term weeaboos for Tau, and then cry 'fluffrape'? They get good leadership because they drop from space in a brick, and because GAME BALANCE. They get good weapons because they're high-ranking, high-risk generalist troops, volunteering their lives in order to deal with whatever gak goes down where they land, and because GAME BALANCE. They get rending in CC because GAME BALANCE. They get EMP grenades to deal with vehicles because GAME BALANCE.

These 5 T3 4+ save guys drop down, randomly, somewhere on the board. They HOPEFULLY deal enough damage in their 1 turn of life to distract the enemy player, or make up some of their points.

Again, there ARE toned-down human auxiliaries as troop choices. 100% of traitor guardsmen get and receive favoured enemy against the imperium, and if you'd looked at the rule in their entry at all, the imperium has it back at them.

The ODSTs are storm troopers who've broken the indoctrination of their former allies, who've sided with the Tau, and who are ready to give their lives in order to defend the only pure thing in the galaxy - this budding, chaos-free, liberty loving race of slit-heads. And in return, the Tau have honoured them with the finest weapons, powerfully advanced armours, and screeching bricks of metal from which to deploy from. If you can't get behind that, pretend they're something else, because they were balanced 10 to 5 against Terminators and then bumped by quarter-again points.

I don't see your hate-on for preferred enemy? They get it because they know the imperials' fighting styles, and back again. Foot Infantry don't get special weapons in the Fire Caste, that's just how it rolls - and there's no way some Gue'Vesa are getting Drones, who knows what the neural interface would do?

I'm all for going against the 'original army' if the original army was based on bad design, bro. And once again you seem to be under some misconceptions - They still fold in CC outside of lucky rolls. Even with Farsight, who's going to be buffing the crap out of (now mandatory) plasmablade suits, you're still getting swamped by any other similarly costed CC units - And once again, if you don't like plasma blades, don't take them in your army. I offer a lot of choice with this dex, you are not limited. Game balance is definitely not an issue with them, as they're underpowered as balls.


Your interpretation of what fluff I'm 'raping' is ridiculous. You DO know that opinions can be wrong, right? Because yours definitely is, on this matter. Protip: The game is super duper lax on what Characteristics mean. If you're really going to argue that a Space Marine would be capped at a lowly S4, when simply making an imperial guardsman really angry and telling him to run at something gives him a similar S4, then we have nothing more to talk about here - you're living in a fantasy realm where the things you like don't have to make sense. ODST's are 25 points per model and can deesptrike - randomly - from the middle of the map. That's freaking vanguard cost. They're allowed to have stats and wargear for it.

@Avoiding H2H - the board is 48" x 72". The farthest you can start away is less than 4.5 feet, in spearhead, with 1 model in the corner. It's more accurate to say 24-30" is the norm. This means that your opponent will be at your doors in 2-5 turns depending on his movement capabilities - Kroot are paper. In the old dex, 'castling' with your kroot in a corner was literally the only viable build against any competitive playstyles anymore. In this one, sure, castling works - but there's a lot of damage you can be doing that you're missing out on because of those kroot now - more of your points can go effectively into other areas. If you want to play the old-style castle, you're welcome to, but I'm convinced there are more effective and more competitive routes to be going. That said, I'd rather my Kroot be an effectively open-topped transport tank for firewarriors to shoot out of and tankshock objectives with, than a 4+ cover 1-turn/gone bubble-wrap. I think you were trying to say, 'wouldn't suggest' - and if you did suggest, I would say no. I've personally only used plasma blades in testing, in jokes lists with an overpowered version of Farsight, in order to see how powerful they could potentially be.

It turns out that WS2 I2 doesn't do much for power weapons in CC, by the way. Even when rerolling to hit and wound, even when overrunning my enemy in crisis suits, it doesn't work that well, and clumps of crisis suits make WONDERFUL targets for battle cannons! What a great way to lose 400 points, wow-ee.

Again, you are allowed to simply not use the things you dislike - it's okay, you have permission from the "Fun Allowed" commission. The great part about playtesting and intentionally overcosting your choices is that it lets you say with confidence, "these are balanced, I have included them for you to use, but you do not have to."

@Blobs - how are you spending 300 points on infantry and not doing anything with it? That's 3 HW teams once you've got the plat and infants out of the way! You can do ANYTHING with that! With tanks, your power comes from the fact that their ranges are longer than god's middle finger, and they all pretty much pulp whatever they hit. 2 manticores and a squad of 3 hydras is going to devastate whatever each one chooses to fire at - which is why they're commonly used in lists called 'leafblowers' - because you might as well just sweep your opponents' models off the table.

With the line of kroot, you're limiting your mobility. If they have any outflank options, if the game is objectives, or if the enemy is simply a cc-oriented or shooty army that doesn't give a rats about your kroots' I3 sv-, then it won't matter.

Case in point, castling behind kroot against dark eldar? BAH. HAH. HAH. Your kroot run from a single venoms' shooting. Your tanks pop and your shas'ui boil in their suits. I have yet to win a decent game against dark eldar with castle, using either codex.

I really don't see how it's OTT - They're balanced points wise, they have a generalist kit, they can do a decent amount of damage, and they're fragile and small.

Your % of armies is skewed, too. No wonder you hate xenos so much, you've fallen for imperial propaganda!

You realize that to kill an equal amount of teq to make up its points, the ODST has to drop within 18" of it, shoot it unhindered for 2 turns with no cover in between, and then possibly still assault it and hope at least 2 live to fight at i3? And that's if nothing, including the termies, shoots back at them the entire time.

Fluffwise, your fluff is wrong. I don't know where you're getting that, but Gue'Vesa are human rebels, not interment camp slaves.

Tau give plenty of tech to allies - kroot are mercenaries, not allies. vespid get technology out the ass. Demiurg and tau share tech all the time. That stormtroopers would get something to enhance their forte, should not come as a surprise.

Kroot still use their crappy guns because their crappy guns are cannon-sized. Kroot are big, big buggers.

One thing I might do is range the Autogun down to 12" - forces them to react more to what's in their immediate vicinity, I suppose.

chrisrawr wrote:Uh, do you know any math hammer, or play any actual games?... or have any reading comprehension?

I did, and the ODST was a piece of crap . But then i simply ignored them as the "compulsory bad unit in the codex".

And i guess the ODST is the "native" Gue'vesa, who was born in the Tau empire and has 1337 mixed Tau/human tech (developed and produced by other "native" humans).

I think he is absolutely right, this dex offers a ton of diversity and while it MAY seem OTT I don't think it is I mean we are still paying a premium for it.

@AtoMaki - a lot of your ideas are ridiculously overpowered, and your idea of a 'bad unit' includes everything that isn't overpowered. My goal was a balance point and diversity roughly equal to space marines, while removing many of the design flaws that Ward is intent on keeping (poor codex-wide balance, poor in-unit versatility, poor scalability, acute-purpose units, etc.).

The ODSTs are a random element. You have no control over where they land, ever. What they DO do when they land, is hopefully make up their points cost, and not get flopped. I'm reducing their range to 12", as they've been successful for me within that area; not too successful, but enough that I don't want to risk them being used as a ranged engagement unit instead of a close engagement unit.

On a side note, I am attempting to build a 500 pt. maybe 1000 pt. army from your dex and the first thing I notice is I can no longer purchase a TA for my Shas'El? Or am I just being stupid

Oop, I'd bumped him down to BS4 with a slight points decrease and forgot to re-add it. Yes, it's 5 points on him.

Alright, well we will see how this goes. Haha I am pretty bad at writing lists but hang on.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
And we don't need a multitracker for suit right?

Nope, it's part of the "Battlesuit" rule

chrisrawr wrote:@AtoMaki - a lot of your ideas are ridiculously overpowered, and your idea of a 'bad unit' includes everything that isn't overpowered.

Actually, my idea of a 'bad unit' is something that needs special conditions to work efficiently and the unit has no control over these conditions. So i think "when all stars allign, the unit can do its intended job" is a straight ticket to the crap pile. The other end is when the unit is simply ridiculous (Vendetta, i'm looking at you). I like my units straight-out effective and reliable. Just as most people who play 40k .

chrisrawr wrote:while removing many of the design flaws that Ward is intent on keeping (poor codex-wide balance, poor in-unit versatility, poor scalability, acute-purpose units, etc.).

These are the flaws of that Cruddace guy. Ward's biggest problems are pricing and inter-codex balance. i mean, from my viewpoint, the GK codex is close to perfect: you can pick and choose any unit you want, and make a very good army with them. No stupid limitations or anything, you can do whatever you want and call it a deal. And that's how a codex should look like.

chrisrawr wrote:The ODSTs are a random element. You have no control over where they land, ever. What they DO do when they land, is hopefully make up their points cost, and not get flopped. I'm reducing their range to 12", as they've been successful for me within that area; not too successful, but enough that I don't want to risk them being used as a ranged engagement unit instead of a close engagement unit.

But their effectiveness is simply too unpredictable. Totally random deployment, very limited damage output (effectively, they are only good against TEQ without any cover/invu), and almost zero mobility (while being rather vulnerable to enemy fire) after landing. Yeah, no, the dual TL Ion Wave Crisis is still superior.

Score! Do piranha's need a multitracker...? They are fast vehicles so wouldn't that kind of be redundant