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DeathReaper wrote:

Which is what Myself, and a few others have been saying, and Berzerker has been ignoring, since very early on in the discussion.

Open-topped vehicles do not have specific fire points, but they do have fire points.

Except I haven't been ignoring that argument at all; it was one of the first things I discussed, and I have brought it up over and over and over and over again.

BeRzErKeR wrote:An Open-Topped Transport Vehicle DOES have a number of fire points; that number is zero.

BeRzErKeR wrote:Of course, that doesn't mean that it doesn't have a Fire Points characteristic; as you noted, all transports HAVE that characteristic. If it has no fire points, that just means that the value associated with its Fire Points characteristic is 0.

BeRzErKeR wrote:Remember; open-topped transports DO have the Fire Points characteristic. They just have Fire Points:0. . .

BeRzErKeR wrote:An open-topped vehicle has no fire points; that is to say, it is a vehicle with Fire Points: 0.

BeRzErKeR wrote: An open-topped vehicle, as I have said over and over, DOES have the Fire Points characteristic. As such, the rules under Fire Points do in fact apply,

EXCEPT

for those rules which are specifically contradicted by a more specific rule.

BeRzErKeR wrote:'Fire Points' is a characteristic, like BS. A vehicle with no fire points has a Fire Points characteristic of 0, in the same way that a model which cannot fire ranged weapons has a BS of 0. It is entirely possible for a vehicle to have no fire points, and still possess a Fire Points characteristic.

An open-topped vehicle has no fire points. How do we know this? Because it doesn't list any fire points. That means that it has a Fire Points characteristic of 0.

BeRzErKeR wrote:There is a Fire Point characteristic. It has a value of 0.

There are no fire points.

These are two different ways to say the same thing.

I'm not the one ignoring things, here. What YOU are ignoring is that 'Fire Points' is the name of a characteristic AS WELL AS the name of the actual thing under discussion, and the value associated with that characteristic can be ZERO. In fact, in the absence of anything positively asserting a different value, that is what we must assume the value is!

Just one request. Please explain to me where you get permission to draw LOS for a unit embarked on a vehicle (open-top or not) that is:
a) not shooting a weapon
b) not using a Psychic Power

From the transport rules we know how embarked models draw LOS for shooting (including PSA's).
From the FAQ we know how embarked models use psychic powers when embarked (only from a fire point).
Where are the rules for other options? (Preferably a page number).

nosferatu1001 wrote:"No specific firepoint"

Guess it has a fire point, just not a particularly specific one.

It's ok - you play taloshammer, we'll play by the real rules.

Pure fiction. There is no rule that says if a vehicle does not have a specific fire point defined in its characteristics, it instead has a 'general' one. It does not exist. Unless you can point to a page number that declares this. if so, then I'm dead wrong

-Yad

Happyjew wrote:Just one request. Please explain to me where you get permission to draw LOS for a unit embarked on a vehicle (open-top or not) that is:
a) not shooting a weapon
b) not using a Psychic Power

From the transport rules we know how embarked models draw LOS for shooting (including PSA's).
From the FAQ we know how embarked models use psychic powers when embarked (only from a fire point).
Where are the rules for other options? (Preferably a page number).

\

Certainly. I'm getting them from page 16, which is the only place in the BGB where LOS is described and the rules for it are given.

This sounds like it should cause a problem, right? After all, permission is only given to draw LOS for shooting. And you can certainly interpret it that way. . . but as soon as you do, NOTHING that is not shooting can EVER draw LOS, no matter whether you're in a transport or not. Why? Because the LOS rules are inextricably linked with the Shooting rules, and as soon as you try to use them for anything else, things get weird really fast.

First paragraph, left side, pg. 16, "A firing unit may choose a single enemy unit. . ." This tells us that 'firing' units can choose a target. No permission for anything else. But maybe there's a more specific permission in a given codex, so this can be glossed over. But there's still. . .

Grey sidebar, same page. "Warhammer 40,000 uses what we call 'true line of sight' for shooting attacks. . ." Well, what do they use for anything that's NOT a shooting attack? It doesn't say. So now you don't know HOW to draw LOS for something that isn't shooting, unless you assume that by 'shooting' they also mean everything else for which you need to draw LOS. And then there's also. . .

Second paragraph, right side, same page. "Line of sight must be traced from the eyes of the firing model to any part of the body of at least one of the models in the target unit." So now you not only are not allowed to trace LOS for any ability that isn't 'firing', you can't do it for any ability that doesn't target a unit. Unless, once again, you replace 'firing' with 'drawing LOS'. And we're not even done, there's still. . .

One paragraph down, under 'Own Unit'; "Firing models can always draw line of sight through members of their own unit. . ." So if you're not shooting you not only don't know how to draw LOS and aren't allowed to do so even if you DID know how, members of your own unit also block your LOS, because the only exception here is for FIRING models.

In order for the LOS rules to work, it's necessary to assume that they are applicable to ALL situations when LOS is called for, not just shooting. Psychic powers, for instance, have no rules for LOS whatsoever (except PSAs, which count as firing a ranged weapon); according to the rules, if we don't assume that permission to draw LOS for shooting also gives you permission to draw LOS for other things, you can never use any non-PSA Psychic power that requires LOS.

EDIT: Just realized that, while true, none of the above actually answers the question, because it all refers only to pg. 16. THOSE restrictions must be assumed to allow anything that needs LOS in order for the rules to work at all, but the restrictions on pg. 66 and pg 70, while phrased in a very similar way, do not.

Looking again at all the pages under consideration, Happyjew is actually correct; you can't do anything EXCEPT shoot or use a psychic power from a transport, whether open-topped or not, because the restrictions on pages 66 and 70 are totally independent of the restrictions on page 16. That being so, Tankbustas can't use Bomb-squigs from a battlewagon, and Anrakyr can't use MitM from his CCB; not because of anything about fire points, but because it isn't a psychic power or Shooting attack.

azazel the cat wrote:Q: Can models embarked upon a vehicle use its fire
points to draw line of sight to a unit to use special
rules or wargear (other than shooting)? (p66)
A: No.

I would argue that Anrakyr is making a shooting attack. He activates the power in the Shooting Phase, and he hits on a 3+ (he just happens to have BS 4)

MitM is not a shooting attack. It happens at the start of the Shooting phase. However it never specifies that Anrakyr is 'hitting' the target. In addition, the rule never says anything to the effect of, "instead of shooting...". It's simply an ability that he can use. If it were a shooting attack then he wouldn't be able to use the Tachyon Arrow on the same phase.

-Yad


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Oh, and Berzerker is right. The OT rule in no way, shape, or form interacts with Fire Points. Except to say that there are none defined for such a vehicle. Instead, models can shoot measuring range and LoS from the hull. Saying that that means there must be a generic fire point that encompasses the entire vehicle is adding/creating a new rule. It strikes me that you are only doing so because you feel that models firing form a vehicle must always do so from a Fire Point. Not so, according to the OT rules.

-Yad

You never answered my question. I didn't ask what gives you permission to draw LOS if not firing. I asked what gives permission to draw LOS when embarked on a vehicle.

I pointed out the rules to draw LOS for firing.
I also pointed out the rules for psychic powers.
These are the only things that are covered for drawing LOS while embarked in a vehicle.

Yad - except the rules tells us there is a fire point there. We know what "0" fire points looks like; we know what a specific fire point looks like; and we know what a non-specific fire point is.

Bezerker doesnt.

Happyjew wrote:You never answered my question. I didn't ask what gives you permission to draw LOS if not firing. I asked what gives permission to draw LOS when embarked on a vehicle.

I pointed out the rules to draw LOS for firing.
I also pointed out the rules for psychic powers.
These are the only things that are covered for drawing LOS while embarked in a vehicle.

You're correct; you must have posted before seeing my edit. Nobody can do anything that isn't shooting or using a Psychic power from a transport, whether open-topped or not.

I would like to add my two cents on this, I think maybe this post has gotten away from what the real topic or question is.
I have attached a Diagram image to ref to when talking about the codex vs the BRB FAQ.
First off I think that the BRB FAQ is in Ref to people trying to use Vehicles in cover and still get “LOS” by Fire point.. Diagram “A” this would be a logical no brainer, hello if your “model” or character does not have LOS then no you can’t use your special ability. I think we need to find out in what content this rule was being used.. were players sticking the HQ in a Land Raider and then calling special ability attacks out of the “ fire Points “. Yes that would not be fair. Stick an HQ in an open top vehicle as long as the Model has LOS sure that is fair, but you will lose your cover save.
Second I would like to look at the Necron Codex talking about Mind in the Machine. Page 62 and it starts out by “ Mind in the Machine… At the start of your shooting phase, chose an enemy vehicle within 18” and in Anrakyr’s Line of Sight and Roll a D6…” this tells me it is talking about Anrakyr as the Model so I take it as the model has to have line of sight to work. The codex also does NOT stat that he has to be disembarked or embarked. It just says it has to be in los of Anrakyr. (the model). So this would be diagram “B”.
To me this would be a logical way to look at both codex and FAQ together and still have both rules work.
The Necron Codex gives us permission to do LOS during the Shooting Phase so regardless if he is embarked or not, Anrakyr can do LOS to an enemy vehicle with in 18” .. via the Necron Codex page 62.
That’s my two cents.

BeRzErKeR wrote:

Happyjew wrote:You never answered my question. I didn't ask what gives you permission to draw LOS if not firing. I asked what gives permission to draw LOS when embarked on a vehicle.

I pointed out the rules to draw LOS for firing.
I also pointed out the rules for psychic powers.
These are the only things that are covered for drawing LOS while embarked in a vehicle.

You're correct; you must have posted before seeing my edit. Nobody can do anything that isn't shooting or using a Psychic power from a transport, whether open-topped or not.

Not true. You can use the Necron Solar Pulse from a transport, as it does not need LOS.

azazel the cat wrote:

BeRzErKeR wrote:

Happyjew wrote:You never answered my question. I didn't ask what gives you permission to draw LOS if not firing. I asked what gives permission to draw LOS when embarked on a vehicle.

I pointed out the rules to draw LOS for firing.
I also pointed out the rules for psychic powers.
These are the only things that are covered for drawing LOS while embarked in a vehicle.

You're correct; you must have posted before seeing my edit. Nobody can do anything that isn't shooting or using a Psychic power from a transport, whether open-topped or not.

Not true. You can use the Necron Solar Pulse from a transport, as it does not need LOS.

Touche.

Soooooooo. . .we're done here?

On whether or not Arynky can use MitM? Yes.
However, I would not be surprised if this thread continues the "Do OT vehicles have FPs or not?" "debate" (and I use that term loosely).

So Anrakyr can use mind in the machine in CCB but coteaz can't use i've been expecting you in chimera...

No, Anrakyr cannot use mintm from a ccb. However, we aredone debating that topic....

The right guy is Nemesor Zahndrekh, he can't use counter tactics in a CCB or a ghost ark now...

Apple's artwork makes me smile lol

So I don't have to read 7 pages of argument could someone please post a sumary thanks

Summary:
It would appear as though Anrakyr the Traveller cannot use his Mind in the Machine ability while he is embarked on a CCB, due to the recent FAQ stating that models may not use special rules or abilities that require LOS from the firing points of a transport, except for the purposes of shooting and/or psychic shooting attacks. Since the CCB is an open-topped vehicle, it has infinite firing points, and thus it does have firing points. Therefore, Anrakyr cannot use his ability while he is embarked.

This same unfortunate circumstance also affects Nemesor Zandrekh's Counter Tactics ability.

Editorial:
I'm crushed, because up until this morning I thought Anrakyr was the best Necron HQ due to the power of Mind in the Machine. However, now he is going to be instantly replaced by a generic Overlord, and I have 60 points free to use on something else. I will hold out hope that a rules errata comes along to change this slightly, as the Necron abilities such as Anrakyr's were always meant to function just like psychic abilities, only they were tech-based. However, that hope may be futile and until that day comes, I am forced to bench Anrakyr, as he is only really worth the cost if he can take a CCB and sweep attack & take over tanks. Now he must choose one or the other, and therefore is no longer worth the points cost.

Thanks

I have contacted the GW faq team on this and the answer was the same with PiereTheMime's posted email. GW treats open topped vehicles as one big fire point.

That settles it for me at least.

copper.talos wrote:I have contacted the GW faq team on this and the answer was the same with PiereTheMime's posted email. GW treats open topped vehicles as one big fire point.

That settles it for me at least.

LoL the gw faq team, aka the unlucky guy who got the telephone call/email.

Kind of funny open topped vehicles are stated in the BGB as essentially being one big firing point. Had to look it up for my ork army.

Yep, but since this is debated so hard, I had to get an outside/neutral opinion. It happens to be almost an exact dublicate to PierreTheMime's email from the FAQ team, so that also shows a bit of consistency in their answer.
I am very disappointed, not with the answer, but with the way the faq was worded. It would have been much simpler to just refer to all transports and not firepoints.

On page 4 I regretted even starting to read this mess...

Tell you what - as soon as Necron FAQ gets updated yet again - Anrakyr will be permitted to use MitM while on the Barge. Period.
All elaborately over-interpreted Necron rules, were FAQ'd to Necron favor and I seriously doubt this would be an exception.

Herr Dexter wrote:On page 4 I regretted even starting to read this mess...

Tell you what - as soon as Necron FAQ gets updated yet again - Anrakyr will be permitted to use MitM while on the Barge. Period.
All elaborately over-interpreted Necron rules, were FAQ'd to Necron favor and I seriously doubt this would be an exception.

With the exception of particle whips which in turn work just like lash whips from the Nids FAQ.

Personally I wish they had FAQ'd that moving flat out was akin to turboboosting. Would have solved heaps of problems and fixed some "loopholes"

Herr Dexter wrote:On page 4 I regretted even starting to read this mess...

Tell you what - as soon as Necron FAQ gets updated yet again - Anrakyr will be permitted to use MitM while on the Barge. Period.
All elaborately over-interpreted Necron rules, were FAQ'd to Necron favor and I seriously doubt this would be an exception.

No, it isnt "elaborately over interpreted"

Is anrakyr using a power that ISNT shooting OR psychic and requires LOS? YEs

Is he embarked on a vehicle? Yes

If the answer to the two is Yes, then he cannot use the power - as it requires LOS and you cannot draw LOS from a vehicles firepoints

Essentially Anrakyr, Njal and Coteaz (that I can think of) are the ONLY REASON FOR THIS FAQ.

But unlike Njall and Coteaz he ain't sittin in a Landraider, trying to target people via it's tiny peepholes

To be fair, he's one of "new" units bringing some unusual elemt to the game. Barge is not only his vehicle it's more of a character upgrade - in some cases you only use it to deal special attacks (Sweep Attack) and everything points at it being ment to be imprevious charriot of doom :] I really imagine his ability to get hotfixed to draw LOS from his own damn head which is clearly visible and has free, almost 360-degree overview while embarked. Unless he would try to gaze through that "backside" part of barge

Also... (although it's not really part of this discussion) This might be different in 6th edition. We will see.

EDIT: Also, Necronmike pretty much presented a reasonable explanation that apparently was ignored. Re-read his post ;]

Njal and Coteaz have never tried to do that; people have just used Firepoints previously. Not LR.

Oh, and Necronmikes explanation has no basis in rules, which is why it is ignored. In rules when you embark a model it is removed fro the table. Try to draw LOS from a model that isnt actually there.

azazel the cat wrote:Summary:
It would appear as though Anrakyr the Traveller cannot use his Mind in the Machine ability while he is embarked on a CCB, due to the recent FAQ stating that models may not use special rules or abilities that require LOS from the firing points of a transport, except for the purposes of shooting and/or psychic shooting attacks. Since the CCB is an open-topped vehicle, it has infinite firing points, and thus it does have firing points. Therefore, Anrakyr cannot use his ability while he is embarked.

This same unfortunate circumstance also affects Nemesor Zandrekh's Counter Tactics ability.

Editorial:
I'm crushed, because up until this morning I thought Anrakyr was the best Necron HQ due to the power of Mind in the Machine. However, now he is going to be instantly replaced by a generic Overlord, and I have 60 points free to use on something else. I will hold out hope that a rules errata comes along to change this slightly, as the Necron abilities such as Anrakyr's were always meant to function just like psychic abilities, only they were tech-based. However, that hope may be futile and until that day comes, I am forced to bench Anrakyr, as he is only really worth the cost if he can take a CCB and sweep attack & take over tanks. Now he must choose one or the other, and therefore is no longer worth the points cost.

Agreed. But I think it's OP if you can move him 24" and use his ability on a vehicle

Love the Cartoon drawnings.. funny as crap.