Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

BeRzErKeR wrote:There's no such thing as a non-specific fire point at all. It simply doesn't exist within the rules.

What? Page 70 describes them in detail.

BeRzErKeR wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:

I absolutely did not ignore it. Since there are no rules for nonspecific firing points, the "instead" gives you rules.

Except it doesn't SAY that. That is something you are inserting.

Every model which has fire points listed has fire points located at a specific place on the model. These fire points are, it should be noted, NOT called 'specific' fire points; they are simply 'fire points'. Those rules should, therefore, apply to ALL fire points, specific or not. So, first objection, you have not shown that a 'nonspecific' fire point has different rules than a 'specific' one.

Open-topped transport vehicles are noted as not having any 'specific' fire points. This DOES NOT MEAN that they have 'nonspecific' fire points; it can mean just as well that they have NO fire points, because this is a negative statement, not a positive one. We already know that transports MAY have fire points; that is a positive statement, and also means that they may NOT have ANY fire points. The idea of a transport vehicle without fire points therefore exists within the ruleset. Furthermore, they have a special rule for firing, which doesn't require fire points to work! This leads to the second objection; you are inserting a rule where none exists. There is no requirement for an open-topped transport to have fire points of ANY kind, specific or non-specific; to claim that they do requires some kind of evidence, and I'm not seeing any.

rigeld2 wrote:
edit because you edited:

EDIT: Further support. Only ONE model can ever fire through a fire point. But EVERY model in an open-topped transport vehicle can fire.

So you have, in an open-topped transport, something which is never called a fire point, and follows different rules than fire points. That thing. . . is not a fire point.

You're right - only one model can fire through a specific firing point (as in one of the 2 available in a Rhino). There's no limit on non-specific firing points.

There's no such thing as a non-specific fire point at all. It simply doesn't exist within the rules.

You are assuming that a vehicle without specific fire points MUST have non-specific fire points, but that's an unjustified assumption.

No he is assuming no specific fire point, means the whole thing is a fire point, Instead of the specific fire point being on the right side.

Since you two posted before my edit, I'll quote it here.

BeRzErKeR wrote:In brief, you are committing the fallacy of composition. We know that some transport vehicles have fire points, and you are extrapolating from that fact the notion that ALL transport vehicles must have fire points. That isn't true, and there isn't any rules support for it. Transport vehicles MAY have fire points, but they are not required. The rules for open-topped transport vehicles do not in any way depend on the rules for fire points; they are quite clear and explicit. ". . . all passengers in an open-topped vehicle may fire, measuring range and line of sight from the hull of the vehicle." If the rules for fire points were excised completely from the book, some parts of the rules for open-topped transports would look strange, but they would still be completely functional.

BeRzErKeR wrote:Since you two posted before my edit, I'll quote it here.

BeRzErKeR wrote:In brief, you are committing the fallacy of composition. We know that some transport vehicles have fire points, and you are extrapolating from that fact the notion that ALL transport vehicles must have fire points. That isn't true, and there isn't any rules support for it. Transport vehicles MAY have fire points, but they are not required. The rules for open-topped transport vehicles do not in any way depend on the rules for fire points; they are quite clear and explicit. ". . . all passengers in an open-topped vehicle may fire, measuring range and line of sight from the hull of the vehicle." If the rules for fire points were excised completely from the book, some parts of the rules for open-topped transports would look strange, but they would still be completely functional.

The rules for open-top dose have fire point rules, it's under the Transport rules part. You know what open-top transports are part of.

BeRzErKeR wrote:Since you two posted before my edit, I'll quote it here.

BeRzErKeR wrote:In brief, you are committing the fallacy of composition. We know that some transport vehicles have fire points, and you are extrapolating from that fact the notion that ALL transport vehicles must have fire points. That isn't true, and there isn't any rules support for it. Transport vehicles MAY have fire points, but they are not required. The rules for open-topped transport vehicles do not in any way depend on the rules for fire points; they are quite clear and explicit. ". . . all passengers in an open-topped vehicle may fire, measuring range and line of sight from the hull of the vehicle." If the rules for fire points were excised completely from the book, some parts of the rules for open-topped transports would look strange, but they would still be completely functional.

sorry, you need to go back to pg 66 and look at the second paragraph under transport vehicles. Transports HAVE additional characteristics: capacity, fire points and access points. ie all transports have those 3 characteristics.

Noir wrote:

The rules for open-top dose have fire point rules, it's under the Transport rules part. You know what open-top transports are part of.

More specific rules override general rules.

The rule for firing out of an Open-Topped Transport is more specific than the rule for firing out of a Transport.

The two contradict each other. The Open-Topped Transport rule overrides the Transport rule. There is no need whatsoever for an open-topped transport to have firing points, because they have a specific rule which tells you how to fire out of them.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

sirlynchmob wrote:

sorry, you need to go back to pg 66 and look at the second paragraph under transport vehicles. Transports HAVE additional characteristics: capacity, fire points and access points. ie all transports have those 3 characteristics.

You need to go back to pg 66 and look at the first paragraph under Fire Points.

"A transport vehicle may have a number of fire points. . ."

If it MAY have fire points, then it also MAY NOT have fire points. Of course, that doesn't mean that it doesn't have a Fire Points characteristic; as you noted, all transports HAVE that characteristic. If it has no fire points, that just means that the value associated with its Fire Points characteristic is 0.

In which case no-one can fire out. . . unless it's an open-topped transport, and so has a special rule, overriding the rules for fire points, which allows them to do so.

Also, not all transports have fire points; see Landraiders.

"Open-topped transports do not have specific fire points."

That sentence (especially the part in bold) is entirely worthless as BeRzErKeR posits.
There are fire points, based upon that sentence - just not specific ones. Thankfully the very next sentence (starting conveniently with "Instead") tells you how to use non-specific fire-points.

kirsanth wrote:Also, not all transports have fire points; see Landraiders.

"Open-topped transports do not have specific fire points."

That sentence (especially the part in bold) is entirely worthless as BeRzErKeR posits.
There are fire points, based upon that sentence - just not specific ones. Thankfully the very next sentence (starting conveniently with "Instead") tells you how to use non-specific fire-points.

No.

You cannot use a negative sentence to assume a positive statement. If I say "I have no pecans", that doesn't mean I have some kind of nut that ISN'T a pecan; it could just as easily mean that I have no nuts at all.

That sentence does NOT tell you there exist fire points of ANY kind; it tells you that, for sure, there are no specific ones. You don't know whether any non-specific ones exist or not, and since the rules don't require there to be any, there's no reason to assume that there are.

kirsanth wrote:Also, not all transports have fire points; see Landraiders.

"Open-topped transports do not have specific fire points."

That sentence (especially the part in bold) is entirely worthless as BeRzErKeR posits.
There are fire points, based upon that sentence - just not specific ones. Thankfully the very next sentence (starting conveniently with "Instead") tells you how to use non-specific fire-points.

Exactly.

What people are not getting (or just ignoring...) is that on an open topped vehicle you can fire anywhere from the hull.

When you're talking about a Fire Point from a different vehicle, lets say a rhino, it is talking about the hatch - this is used to determine where the shots are coming from and where to measure from. An open topped vehicle is simple ONE HUGE FIRE POINT.

This really isn't difficult to understand... again I'm not happy about this but just accept it already, jeez lol

BeRzErKeR wrote:

Automatically Appended Next Post:

sirlynchmob wrote:

sorry, you need to go back to pg 66 and look at the second paragraph under transport vehicles. Transports HAVE additional characteristics: capacity, fire points and access points. ie all transports have those 3 characteristics.

You need to go back to pg 66 and look at the first paragraph under Fire Points.

"A transport vehicle may have a number of fire points. . ."

If it MAY have fire points, then it also MAY NOT have fire points. Of course, that doesn't mean that it doesn't have a Fire Points characteristic; as you noted, all transports HAVE that characteristic. If it has no fire points, that just means that the value associated with its Fire Points characteristic is 0.

In which case no-one can fire out. . . unless it's an open-topped transport, and so has a special rule, overriding the rules for fire points, which allows them to do so.

look I'd love for you to be right, but if open top vehicles are not limited by fire points, then there is no reason my trucks can't go 19" and drop 12 flamer templates on someone which makes for happy orks. Its only under the fire point heading where it says passengers can't shoot if moving greater than cruising speed.

so you can have a specific fire point, where x= 0, x = 3 1 front, 1 port, 1 stbd, or no specific fire points, everyone can shoot out in a 360 circle.

sirlynchmob wrote:

look I'd love for you to be right, but if open top vehicles are not limited by fire points, then there is no reason my trucks can't go 19" and drop 12 flamer templates on someone which makes for happy orks. Its only under the fire point heading where it says passengers can't shoot if moving greater than cruising speed.

so you can have specifically fire number of points, where x= 0, x = 3 1 front, 1 port, 1 stbd, or no specific fire points, everyone can shoot out in a 360 circle.

The rule for firing from a moving vehicle is under the Fire Points heading, but it doesn't reference fire points at all; it says models firing "from a vehicle". That rule applies to all vehicles, whether you're firing from a fire point or not. The rules for open-topped transports ONLY contradict the rules which discuss firing FROM A FIRE POINT.

That being so, that section of the rules still applies; there's no more specific rule that contradicts it. Remember; open-topped transports DO have the Fire Points characteristic. They just have Fire Points:0, and a special rule that allows passengers to fire WITHOUT shooting from a fire point. That doesn't in any way contradict the rules for firing from a moving vehicle.

EDIT: Spelling!

BeRzErKeR wrote:

sirlynchmob wrote:

look I'd love for you to be right, but if open top vehicles are not limited by fire points, then there is no reason my trucks can't go 19" and drop 12 flamer templates on someone which makes for happy orks. Its only under the fire point heading where it says passengers can't shoot if moving greater than cruising speed.

so you can have specifically fire number of points, where x= 0, x = 3 1 front, 1 port, 1 stbd, or no specific fire points, everyone can shoot out in a 360 circle.

The rule for firing from a moving vehicle is under the Fire Points heading, but it doesn't reference fire points at all; it says models firing "from a vehicle". That rule applies to all vehicles, whether you're firing from a fire point or not. The rules for open-topped transports ONLY contradict the rules which discuss firing FROM A FIRE POINT.

That being so, that section of the rules still applies; there's no more specific rule that contradicts it. Remember; open-topped transports DO have the Fire Points characteristic. They just have Fire Points:0, and a special rule that allows passengers to fire WITHOUT shooting from a fire point. That doesn't in any way contradict the rules for firing from a moving vehicle.

EDIT: Spelling!

its that they have no specific fire points, not 0. that's why everyone in the vehicle can shoot out at the same angle. just not a specific opening to shoot out of. It never says under open top that they ignore the rules for the fire point it has. if it has no fire points, than any rules for fire points would not apply. because it also says for open top that all passengers can shoot. so if anrakyr can use his mind thing, all my orks can flame after 19" of movement

sirlynchmob wrote:

its that they have no specific fire points, not 0. that's why everyone in the vehicle can shoot out at the same angle. just not a specific opening to shoot out of. It never says under open top that they ignore the rules for the fire point it has. if it has no fire points, than any rules for fire points would not apply. because it also says for open top that all passengers can shoot. so if anrakyr can use his mind thing, all my orks can flame after 19" of movement

An open-topped vehicle has no fire points; that is to say, it is a vehicle with Fire Points: 0. Since all transports have the Fire Points characteristic, open-topped transports also have that characteristic; having no fire points and having 0 fire points are exactly the same thing Because of the special rule for firing out of an open-topped transports, any rules regarding firing from a firing point do not apply.

This has nothing, at all, to do with a rule regarding firing from a moving vehicle. Is your trukk a moving vehicle? Than the rules which regard firing from a moving vehicle apply, regardless of where they are.

If it is not called a firepoint, doesn't look like a fire point, it isn't defined as a firepoint, it doesn't use the rules for fire points, it is not under the entry firepoints then guess what, it's not a firepoint. BeRzErKeR's arguments are dead on. Open topped does not mean 1 fire point.

Firepoints in a vehicle are described in the entry of the vehicle. No entry = no firepoints. Anything else is just made up...

BeRzErKeR wrote:
An open-topped vehicle has no fire points; that is to say, it is a vehicle with Fire Points: 0. Since all transports have the Fire Points characteristic, open-topped transports also have that characteristic; having no fire points and having 0 fire points are exactly the same thing Because of the special rule for firing out of an open-topped transports, any rules regarding firing from a firing point do not apply.

So MitM can not be used. Fire Point: 0 = Fire Point.

BeRzErKeR wrote:

sirlynchmob wrote:

its that they have no specific fire points, not 0. that's why everyone in the vehicle can shoot out at the same angle. just not a specific opening to shoot out of. It never says under open top that they ignore the rules for the fire point it has. if it has no fire points, than any rules for fire points would not apply. because it also says for open top that all passengers can shoot. so if anrakyr can use his mind thing, all my orks can flame after 19" of movement

An open-topped vehicle has no fire points; that is to say, it is a vehicle with Fire Points: 0. Since all transports have the Fire Points characteristic, open-topped transports also have that characteristic; having no fire points and having 0 fire points are exactly the same thing Because of the special rule for firing out of an open-topped transports, any rules regarding firing from a firing point do not apply.

This has nothing, at all, to do with a rule that regards firing from a moving vehicle. Is your trukk a moving vehicle? Than the rules which regard firing from a moving vehicle apply, regardless of where they are.

sure it does, if you have a fire point, a specific slot to shoot out of, then you can't shoot if you move more than 6" like you said previously more specific rule applies, so open top says all passengers may shoot. so more specific rule, open transport, all models can shoot. nothing about it being limited to a rule that only applies to enclosed vehicles with fire points. You can't have it both ways, either the rules for fire points affect all transports, or it only affects non open topped ones. Because all transports have fire points, weather its a specific amount of them, or a non specific amount.

@Noir That is correct. No fire points at all. You use the "open topped" rules as CCB is an open topped vehicle.

Noir wrote:

BeRzErKeR wrote:
An open-topped vehicle has no fire points; that is to say, it is a vehicle with Fire Points: 0. Since all transports have the Fire Points characteristic, open-topped transports also have that characteristic; having no fire points and having 0 fire points are exactly the same thing Because of the special rule for firing out of an open-topped transports, any rules regarding firing from a firing point do not apply.

So MitM can not be used. Fire Point: 0 = Fire Point.

There is a Fire Point characteristic. It has a value of 0.

There are no fire points.

These are two different ways to say the same thing.

Now; there is no fire point. You are not, therefore, firing from a fire point; there is no fire point to fire from. This is where the open-topped rules come in. And yes, you CAN use MitM, because you are NOT firing FROM a fire point.

@sirlynchmob; The rule never says "If you are firing from a fire point, from a moving vehicle". It just says "from a moving vehicle". Whether you're shooting from a fire point or not is totally irrelevant. The open-topped rule does NOT contradict this, and so it is not overridden.

Why dose it fill like someone trying to convince themself that it works?

Noir wrote:Why dose it fill like someone trying to convince themself that it works?

Because they are.

The argument is the interpretation of "no specific firepoint" in the wording for open topped. I don't understand the confusion, if I go for a drive and have "no specific destination" in mind, I'll still end up at a destination - just like this - An open topped vehicle has NO SPECIFIC FIREPOINT, BUT that does imply there are fire points, its just all over the hull. On a ghost ark its assuming guys are shifting around to fire anywhere out of it, therefore the vehicle itself is a firepoint. The counterpoint would be is there are UNLIMITED fire points on an open topped vehicle , and not "0"

I honestly do not get how this is so confusing.

BeRzErKeR wrote:There is a Fire Point characteristic. It has a value of 0.

There are no fire points.

These are two different ways to say the same thing.

Incorrect, If it had 0 fire points you could not shoot out of it, instead it has no SPECIFIC fire points.

A rhino has 1 specific fire point, which is the top hatch. You have to measure LoS and Range from the top hatch.

An open topped transport does not have any specific fire points, so there is not any one specific point on the vehicle where you have to measure LoS and Range from, you can simply measure LoS and Range from any part of the Hull. (Open topped vehicles do not have specific fire points so you dont have to shoot from a specific place).

BeRzErKeR wrote:@sirlynchmob; The rule never says "If you are firing from a fire point, from a moving vehicle". It just says "from a moving vehicle". Whether you're shooting from a fire point or not is totally irrelevant. The open-topped rule does NOT contradict this, and so it is not overridden.

The firing from a moving vehicle is under the fire points section.

Context is everything.

Cryage wrote:

Noir wrote:Why dose it fill like someone trying to convince themself that it works?

Because they are.

The argument is the interpretation of "no specific firepoint" in the wording for open topped. I don't understand the confusion, if I go for a drive and have "no specific destination" in mind, I'll still end up at a destination - just like this - An open topped vehicle has NO SPECIFIC FIREPOINT, BUT that does imply there are fire points, its just all over the hull. On a ghost ark its assuming guys are shifting around to fire anywhere out of it, therefore the vehicle itself is a firepoint. The counterpoint would be is there are UNLIMITED fire points on an open topped vehicle , and not "0"

I honestly do not get how this is so confusing.

Bolded your error for you. It implies nothing of the kind.

I'll repeat my example from earlier; if I say to you "I don't have any pecans", that does NOT imply that I have some other kind of nut. It might just as easily imply that I have NO NUTS AT ALL.

Reinterpreting the rules to say that open-topped vehicles have some kind of 'non-specific' fire point is clunky and totally unnecessary.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

DeathReaper wrote:
Incorrect, If it had 0 fire points you could not shoot out of it, instead it has no SPECIFIC fire points.

You would be right; EXCEPT that open-topped vehicles have a special rule SPECIFICALLY TO ADDRESS THIS.

DeathReaper wrote:

BeRzErKeR wrote:@sirlynchmob; The rule never says "If you are firing from a fire point, from a moving vehicle". It just says "from a moving vehicle". Whether you're shooting from a fire point or not is totally irrelevant. The open-topped rule does NOT contradict this, and so it is not overridden.

The firing from a moving vehicle is under the fire points section.

Context is everything.

Doesn't matter. The rule does not reference fire points in the slightest; and I have never said that the entire SECTION is contradicted. I have said that those SPECIFIC RULES which reference fire points are contradicted.

BeRzErKeR wrote:

DeathReaper wrote:Incorrect, If it had 0 fire points you could not shoot out of it, instead it has no SPECIFIC fire points.

You would be right; EXCEPT that open-topped vehicles have a special rule SPECIFICALLY TO ADDRESS THIS.

and the Open topped vehicles still do not have any specific fire points.

Every part of the Hull is a fire point, because OT vehicles do not have any specific fire points, so all models can shoot out of an open topped transport.

Re-read P.66: "Transports have several additional characteristics: Transport capacity, Fire Points, and Access Points."

the rules below that section detail how these three characteristics work.

P.70 also says "Open-Topped vehicles follow the normal vehicle rules, with the additions and exceptions given below."

Then goes on to say that Open-Topped vehicles have no specific fire points. nowhere in the Open-Topped entry does it say that they do not have any fire points.

That is an important difference. so they still have fire points, but just not any specific place they can fire from.

I am not sure why there is any confusion on this.

BeRzErKeR wrote:

Noir wrote:

BeRzErKeR wrote:
An open-topped vehicle has no fire points; that is to say, it is a vehicle with Fire Points: 0. Since all transports have the Fire Points characteristic, open-topped transports also have that characteristic; having no fire points and having 0 fire points are exactly the same thing Because of the special rule for firing out of an open-topped transports, any rules regarding firing from a firing point do not apply.

So MitM can not be used. Fire Point: 0 = Fire Point.

There is a Fire Point characteristic. It has a value of 0.

There are no fire points.

These are two different ways to say the same thing.

Now; there is no fire point. You are not, therefore, firing from a fire point; there is no fire point to fire from. This is where the open-topped rules come in. And yes, you CAN use MitM, because you are NOT firing FROM a fire point.

@sirlynchmob; The rule never says "If you are firing from a fire point, from a moving vehicle". It just says "from a moving vehicle". Whether you're shooting from a fire point or not is totally irrelevant. The open-topped rule does NOT contradict this, and so it is not overridden.

and where is the rule about firing from a vehicle listed? under the fire point heading. So is a open top vehicle has no fire points, then that rule would not apply. I can't say all my models have feel no pain because there is a rule for it in the book. I can only use it if something give me that ability. so if I have no fire points, then I can't use any rules for fire points.

so i'd be left with the rules under open top, and all models may shoot. so if I move 18" can I shoot? well lets look under open top transports. "all models may shoot" so yes I can

so its either like it says on pg 66, all transports have fire points weather it has a specific number or a non specific number, and MITM will not work. Because the fire point for Anrakyr is the point on the hull his LOS is measured from. or it does work and by the same arguments you use for it to work, i can use for all my models to shoot regardless of how far the transport moved.

What does it for me is that open topped transports don't have the option for fire points. Closed transports say how many fire points there are even if the number is zero. For open topped it just states that they are open topped and not under the fire point category. I do believe that open topped does not mean infinite fire points and you can see out of it.

sirlynchmob wrote:

and where is the rule about firing from a vehicle listed? under the fire point heading. So is a open top vehicle has no fire points, then that rule would not apply. I can't say all my models have feel no pain because there is a rule for it in the book. I can only use it if something give me that ability. so if I have no fire points, then I can't use any rules for fire points.

so i'd be left with the rules under open top, and all models may shoot. so if I move 18" can I shoot? well lets look under open top transports. "all models may shoot" so yes I can

so its either like it says on pg 66, all transports have fire points weather it has a specific number or a non specific number, and MITM will not work. Because the fire point for Anrakyr is the point on the hull his LOS is measured from. or it does work and by the same arguments you use for it to work, i can use for all my models to shoot regardless of how far the transport moved.

Wrong. An open-topped vehicle, as I have said over and over, DOES have the Fire Points characteristic. As such, the rules under Fire Points do in fact apply,

EXCEPT

for those rules which are specifically contradicted by a more specific rule. The rule for how many models may fire out of a fire point, and the rule which states that any model not firing out of a fire point cannot fire, are specifically contradicted by a more specific rule. The rule for firing from a moving vehicle is NOT specifically contradicted, and so remains in force. Do you understand now?

DeathReaper wrote:Every part of the Hull is a fire point, because OT vehicles do not have any specific fire points, so all models can shoot out of an open topped transport.

Re-read P.66: "Transports have several additional characteristics: Transport capacity, Fire Points, and Access Points."

the rules below that section detail how these three characteristics work.

P.70 also says "Open-Topped vehicles follow the normal vehicle rules, with the additions and exceptions given below."

Then goes on to say that Open-Topped vehicles have no specific fire points. nowhere in the Open-Topped entry does it say that they do not have any fire points.

That is an important difference. so they still have fire points, but just not any specific place they can fire from.

I am not sure why there is any confusion on this.

The confusion is on your end. You are confusing possession of a characteristic with possession of a positive number in a characteristic.

'Fire Points' is a characteristic, like BS. A vehicle with no fire points has a Fire Points characteristic of 0, in the same way that a model which cannot fire ranged weapons has a BS of 0. It is entirely possible for a vehicle to have no fire points, and still possess a Fire Points characteristic.

An open-topped vehicle has no fire points. How do we know this? Because it doesn't list any fire points. That means that it has a Fire Points characteristic of 0.

Please note; 'specific' fire points are not listed, and 'non-specific' fire points are not listed, just 'fire points'. There are no fire points of ANY KIND, specific or non-specific, on an open-topped transport; if there was a fire point, whether specific or non-specific, it would have to be listed. It isn't. If something isn't on the profile, it doesn't exist. A Terminator without Lightning Claws listed on his profile doesn't have Lightning Claws. A Land Raider without a multi-melta listed on its profile doesn't have a multi-melta. A transport without any fire points listed on its profile does not have any fire points; and since we know that ALL transports have the Fire Points characteristic, that necessarily means that it has a Fire Points characteristic of 0.

Therefore, under the normal rules, transported models cannot fire from an open-topped vehicle. But, fortunately, there is a special and specific rule on page 70, which tells us that you CAN in fact fire from an open-topped vehicle. This is an exception to the rule regarding fire points.

The vehicle has no fire points. It's Fire Points characteristic is 0. There are no fire points available to fire from, but models are in fact firing. Ergo, they are NOT firing from a fire point. This means that restrictions applicable to models firing from a fire point do not apply to models firing from an open-topped vehicle, because they are not firing from a fire point.

And you are confusing "The vehicle has no fire points" when the rules actually say "The vehicle has no SPECIFIC fire points"

According to the rules it still has fire points, just not any specific ones that dictate where to fire from.

DeathReaper wrote:And you are confusing "The vehicle has no fire points" when the rules actually say "The vehicle has no SPECIFIC fire points"

According to the rules it still has fire points, just not any specific ones that dictate where to fire from.

I have answered that exact argument at least twice. I have yet to receive any response. Look a couple posts up.

Just to bring in my opinion. I think Deathreaper and others are spot on. My reasoning:

If the BRB had said "no fire points" you would have a case. But it doesn't. It says "no specific fire points" which implies that is does have them. It then goes on to describe how to utilize this non-specific firing point.

The same also applies to access points a little further down in the paragraph. It has no SPECIFIC access points, but you can embark or disembark anywhere within 2" of the hull.

BeRzErKeR wrote:

DeathReaper wrote:And you are confusing "The vehicle has no fire points" when the rules actually say "The vehicle has no SPECIFIC fire points"

According to the rules it still has fire points, just not any specific ones that dictate where to fire from.

I have answered that exact argument at least twice. I have yet to receive any response. Look a couple posts up.

That's because you're wrong. As he has stated several times correctly, no specific fire point does not equal no fire point. The next line tells us what the fire point is, the entire hull. Really, it's not that difficult.