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The things is, they've made one character who was really good, and made him bad. It's not like they took a good model and turned him into a decent one. His best abilty worked best in this one patricular way, and although it can still be used, it's nowhere near as good as it was.
It would be like taking Vulkan and saying that everything only counts as twin-linked whens he's not in a vehicle.

I'm still leaning towards Necronmike's example, as it only mentions firing points, and does not say anything about measuring from the model itself within the vehicle.
Since you can't measure it from a firing point, that just takes 4" off the range of the ability effectively.
However, Anrakyr is physically inside the vehicle, and can draw LoS to things outside the vehicle.

He's off the table actually, since models that embark are removed from the table. Good luck measuring LOS from there.

Plus, there is absolutely no rule allowing you to measure from the representation of a necron lord on the CCB.

nosferatu1001 wrote:

Herr Dexter wrote:On page 4 I regretted even starting to read this mess...

Tell you what - as soon as Necron FAQ gets updated yet again - Anrakyr will be permitted to use MitM while on the Barge. Period.
All elaborately over-interpreted Necron rules, were FAQ'd to Necron favor and I seriously doubt this would be an exception.

No, it isnt "elaborately over interpreted"

Is anrakyr using a power that ISNT shooting OR psychic and requires LOS? YEs

Is he embarked on a vehicle? Yes

If the answer to the two is Yes, then he cannot use the power - as it requires LOS and you cannot draw LOS from a vehicles firepoints

Essentially Anrakyr, Njal and Coteaz (that I can think of) are the ONLY REASON FOR THIS FAQ.

I hope that this debate is done now... because I'm pretty sure that when nosferatu1001 & I actually agree on something, that means either A) the coffin is nailed shut, or B) the rapture is imminent.


...also, I believe Zandrekh cannot use Counter Tactics either, as it requires LOS.

rigeld2 wrote:He's off the table actually, since models that embark are removed from the table. Good luck measuring LOS from there.

If he is off table; does that mean troops embarked on a transport in Dawn of War arent on the table either?

Crackgnome wrote:I'm still leaning towards Necronmike's example, as it only mentions firing points, and does not say anything about measuring from the model itself within the vehicle.
Since you can't measure it from a firing point, that just takes 4" off the range of the ability effectively.
However, Anrakyr is physically inside the vehicle, and can draw LoS to things outside the vehicle.

Even if you don't subscribe to the fire point debate (for some reason), then you can be sure he cannot use special rules because the only permission an embarked unit on an open-topped vehicle has is for firing. Using Mind in the Machine is not firing.

So, there are two different reasons why MitM doesn't work while embarked.

Ignore the underlined, my original response, read below
There is a lot of precedent for letting models use powers/abilities from a vehicle.

1) You can shoot from vehicles using a firing point to measure LOS
2) You can use a psychic shooting attack from a vehicle using the firing point to measure LOS
3) You can use ANY psychic power (not just psychic shooting, see Rulebook FAQ) from a vehicle using the firing point to mesure LOS

I would deduce that abilities that require LOS should be usable from a vehicle, from the firing point(s).

This shouldn't be a debate, I just re-read the Rulebook FAQ:
Q: Can models embarked upon a vehicle use its fire
points to draw line of sight to a unit to use special
rules or wargear (other than shooting)? (p66)
A: No.

Check out page 5 of the rulebook FAQ. The 2nd portion in red is quite clear.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
ninja'ed

That's the issue though, because Open Topped vehicles don't have fire points.

Q: Can models embarked upon a vehicle use its fire
points to draw line of sight to a unit to use special
rules or wargear (other than shooting)? (p66)
A: No.

So we'll have to wait for yet another FAQ for them to clarify if Open Topped allow the measuring of LoS, and if so, how that works.
For now, case-to-case house rules will have to clear this up.

Crackgnome wrote:
For now, case-to-case house rules will have to clear this up.

No, they won't. You cannot use it from an open-topped vehicle. You can read the entire thread if you want to understand why open-topped vehicles must have fire points. But, for the sake of brevity, if you don't want to read that, there is another glaring problem:

The open-topped rules only give you permission to fire from an open-topped vehicle drawing LOS and measuring from the hull. Using special rules is no way, shape or form "firing". So, even if you want to argue the point about fire points, there is still the permission issue with drawing LOS for something that is not firing.

puma713 wrote:

The open-topped rules only give you permission to fire from an open-topped vehicle drawing LOS and measuring from the hull. Using special rules is no way, shape or form "firing". So, even if you want to argue the point about fire points, there is still the permission issue with drawing LOS for something that is not firing.

This. No permission given to use a special rule from an open-topped transport; the fire points issue is thus irrelevant to Anrakyr.

Thankfully people I play with use common sense in such cases - we agreed to measure from the hull
But I guess some tournaments out there are better to attend to without Anarkyr if you plan to use him that way.
Fingers x-ed for this to be more clear / revoked in 6th edition.

EDIT:
Don't get me wrong - I'm not saying your interpretation of rules is incorrect. It probably is. It simply escapes the boundaries of common sense me and most people I play with use in such situations... Anyway - thanks for bringing this up, will take note before any major game to avoid geting stuck in this debate again with someone else.

Herr Dexter wrote:Thankfully people I play with use common sense in such cases - we agreed to measure from the hull
But I guess some tournaments out there are better to attend to without Anarkyr if you plan to use him that way.
Fingers x-ed for this to be more clear / revoked in 6th edition.

You can always make up House Rules of course. If I think my Guardians should be BS4 coz they have an awesome paint job and my opponent agrees, why not?

Yeah I know - probably why I shouldn't have made my point here anyway

Aeon wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:He's off the table actually, since models that embark are removed from the table. Good luck measuring LOS from there.

If he is off table; does that mean troops embarked on a transport in Dawn of War arent on the table either?

P66, measuring to or from a vehicles embarked unit.

The point is that the model on the CCB isnt actually there, according ot the real rules, so you cannot draw LOS from him. He's literally just a decorative item

Wow, I'd missed entirely the "Coteaz in a Box" army loses the "I've Been Expecting You". Interesting.

I ascribe to the theory open topped vehicles have a nonspecific firing point that all passengers can use, that is any place on the hull. Making the FAQ stop Anrakyr. I do not quote rules or pages or anything, that's been done to death. This is simply my opinion.

nosferatu1001 wrote:

Aeon wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:He's off the table actually, since models that embark are removed from the table. Good luck measuring LOS from there.

If he is off table; does that mean troops embarked on a transport in Dawn of War arent on the table either?

P66, measuring to or from a vehicles embarked unit.

The point is that the model on the CCB isnt actually there, according ot the real rules, so you cannot draw LOS from him. He's literally just a decorative item

Why do you say the model isn't actually on the CCB? I physically put my models on the CCB all the time. GW designed the CCB so you can put your models on it to show embarked models. I think that alone is more up to date then P66 of the 5th Edition rule book, and I’m going to use my example when using Anrakyr it is only common sense that I draw LOS to the Model not any fire point. The Necron codex lets me draw LOS to this model during the shooting phase, and does not tell me he can't be embarked on a vehicle. also I’m not breaking the FAQ portion of this rule either because I’m not drawing LOS to the Fire Point or Hull , I’m drawing LOS to my model that is Anrakyr. So that just how I’m going to play him.

It’s almost like people are saying when I drive up to McDonalds to order a Happy meal. I can't simply roll down my window to order, I need to Disembark from my car.. place my order.. Embark back in my car drive up.. Disembark again pay the person at the window.. Embark back in my car.. drive up a little more.. Disembark again get my food and .. Embark once again to drive off.. can we order like this?.. yes.. is it logical .. noooo and your going to tick off alot of people behind you. Thankfully the club I’m in are relaxed players, and use common sense when dealing with such things. we come up with an agreement fast and continue play.

So I’m going to quote the FAQ portion and break it down and show that I will not be breaking any rule while using Anrakyr in this manner.
Q. Can Models Embarked upon a vehicle use its fire points to draw line of sight to a unit to use special rules or wargear (other than shooting)? (p66)
A. No.
There it is word for word. And when I draw LOS to Anrakyr ( the model ) and he is embarked on the CCB.. am I going to use any Fire point that this question is talking about? Nope I’m drawing LOS straight to the Model that is physically placed on the CCB. (don't forget GW is a Big Fan of WYSIWYG) Just look at the question everyone.. the question is talking about using Fire Points to draw LOS, not can he use his ability while embarked. That would be two totally different questions.

That question would look like this..
Q. Can Anrakyr use Mind in the Machine while embarked on a CCB? ( now doesn’t this question look totally different than the one posted above? )

We, that use Anrakyr on the CCB don’t have to use any Fire Point when we draw LOS straight to Anrakyr the model. So no we are not breaking this rule when we use MitM while embarked on the CCB. This is not a trick question. the FAQ question is talking about Fire Points, not abilities. So as long as I don’t use any Fire Points to draw my LOS to Anrakyr then I’m in the clear and no rules have been broken.

Necronmike wrote:
Why do you say the model isn't actually on the CCB?

Because that is what the rules state.

kirsanth wrote:

Necronmike wrote:
Why do you say the model isn't actually on the CCB?

Because that is what the rules state.

hmmm i've read P66 and i did not see where it said that if i have a model physically embarked on a vehicle that it is just for decorations. I use WYSIWYG all the time soooo if my CCB has a named lord or over lord Embarked on it.. then by all means that model better be on it. and its not just for decorations, it is to show my opponent that yes I have a named lord or over lord on a CCB and it is very dangerous. So take cover. Because I’m coming for you.

can you give me a page number in BRB that states the model embarked if it is physicaly there its only for decorations and not for function? here i go again having to get out of my car to order a happy meal. thats not logical.

Necronmike wrote:

hmmm i've read P66 and i did not see where it said that if i have a model physically embarked on a vehicle that it is just for decorations. I use WYSIWYG all the time soooo if my CCB has a named lord or over lord Embarked on it.. then by all means that model better be on it. and its not just for decorations, it is to show my opponent that yes I have a named lord or over lord on a CCB and it is very dangerous. So take cover. Because I’m coming for you.

can you give me a page number in BRB that states the model embarked if it is physicaly there its only for decorations and not for function? here i go again having to get out of my car to order a happy meal. thats not logical.

Okay, since your model is 'there' and can see, and I can see it. You don't mind if my Hive Guard ignore the CCB and just shoot at Anrakyr... since they can see the model that is 'there'.

also keep inmind.. my codex won't let me draw LOS to a Fire point to use mind in the machine.. it says i have to draw LOS to Anrakyr himself.

Necronmike wrote:hmmm i've read P66 and i did not see where it said that if i have a model physically embarked on a vehicle that it is just for decorations

Then you missed it. The model is a marker - and optional. Third sentence under "Embarking".

BRB pg 66 wrote: ...it is removed from the table and set aside...

Pretty sure this is what the reading kitten is talking about.

coredump wrote:

Necronmike wrote:

hmmm i've read P66 and i did not see where it said that if i have a model physically embarked on a vehicle that it is just for decorations. I use WYSIWYG all the time soooo if my CCB has a named lord or over lord Embarked on it.. then by all means that model better be on it. and its not just for decorations, it is to show my opponent that yes I have a named lord or over lord on a CCB and it is very dangerous. So take cover. Because I’m coming for you.

can you give me a page number in BRB that states the model embarked if it is physicaly there its only for decorations and not for function? here i go again having to get out of my car to order a happy meal. thats not logical.

Okay, since your model is 'there' and can see, and I can see it. You don't mind if my Hive Guard ignore the CCB and just shoot at Anrakyr... since they can see the model that is 'there'.

sure but you got to go threw my Quantum shielding to hit me.

SlaveToDorkness wrote:

BRB pg 66 wrote: ...it is removed from the table and set aside...

Pretty sure this is what the reading kitten is talking about.

Yep yep. With emphasis on fact that the parenthetical is referencing a way to remember which squad is embarked, not a new way to play the game - thus the use of parenthesis.

SlaveToDorkness wrote:

BRB pg 66 wrote: ...it is removed from the table and set aside...

Pretty sure this is what the reading kitten is talking about.

I'm looking at it and i do not see this statment. i've read this page like 6 times looking for something like this. what Paragraph?

Jesus, really? let me get out my spoon...

BRB, right column, 2nd paragraph, 3rd sentence.

SlaveToDorkness wrote:Jesus, really? let me get out my spoon...

BRB, right column, 2nd paragraph, 3rd sentence.

thank you and yes i over looked that serveral time.. but it also says that they find placing one of the units modesl on top of the transport works well.. and it still didn't say it was only for decorations .. placing a model ontop of the vehicle has function. so sorry i'm still going to use Mind in the machine while Anrakyr is embarked on the CCB. the FAQ was talking about Fire Points not on if Anrakyr can use mind in the machine or not.

Necronmike wrote:I'm looking at it and i do not see this statment. i've read this page like 6 times looking for something like this. what Paragraph?

Page 66, under the Embarking section 3rd sentence: "When the unit embarks, it is removed from the table and placed aside, making a note or otherwise marking that the unit is being transported (we find that placing one of the unit's models on top of the transport works well!)."

yes slavetoDorkness got his spoon out and feed it to me..lol. thanks