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That is your own interpretation. The entry "firepoint" on a trasport is what makes it have a firepoint. As the entry "tank" makes a vehicle a tank, "skimmer" a skimmer etc. If it isn't in the description of the vehicle it can't be used for advantage or disadvantage equally.

I

pg 66 really clears this up though.

"transports have several addition characteristics: capacity, fire points and access points"

so no specific fire points mean you can shoot from any angle with as many figures as you have in the vehicle.

copper.talos wrote:That is your own interpretation. The entry "firepoint" on a trasport is what makes it have a firepoint. As the entry "tank" makes a vehicle a tank, "skimmer" a skimmer etc. If it isn't in the description of the vehicle it can't be used for advantage or disadvantage equally.

So, you're saying Anrakyr cannot use his power because the transport has no firepoints. . .and I'm saying he cannot use the power because there are firepoints.

So. . .

Open Topped Transports have no Fire Points but mounted models are specifically allowed to shoot, measure range and draw LOS from the hull (p70).

I do not understand how one can then jump to calling the hull a fire point. It does not follow.

The CCB does not have firepoints. You can't argue that. It's in the codex plain and simple. No firepoints present = no firepoints used.

Thanatos_elNyx wrote:Open Topped Transports have no Fire Points but mounted models are specifically allowed to shoot, measure range and draw LOS from the hull (p70).

I do not understand how one can then jump to calling the hull a fire point. It does not follow.

All transports have fire points. open top are transports, and have no specific fire points. In a open top your fire point is any spot on the hull, not a pre determined spot.

I wish it said open top does not use fire points, because then open tops could go 18" or 24" and still have everyone inside shoot

Thanatos_elNyx wrote:Open Topped Transports have no Fire Points but mounted models are specifically allowed to shoot, measure range and draw LOS from the hull (p70).

Because, the rulebook puts in a crucial qualifier at the beginning of that sentence. "Open topped transports have no specific fire points, but. . ."

That means the rest of the sentence relies on your understanding of how fire points function. If they meant "Open topped transports have no fire points. . ." then that is what they would have said. But it is not. Passengers in other transports would not be allowed to fire without the fire point rules, correct? Then, you move on to a subset of vehicles, which is 'open-topped'. They follow the same rules as 'vehicles', with added rules/restrictions. One of those is fire points. You might ask yourself, "well, if an open topped transport has no firepoints, how can you fire out of it?" and then they go on to answer, "they don't have specific fire points, instead you can draw los from the hull."

Now, you're telling me that you can't understand the connection between rulebook defined "firepoint" and non-specific "hull"? If they had said "use any part of the hull as your fire point." Then this wouldn't be an issue?

Open topped is a quality of a transport. Firepoints are another quality. These are mutual exclusive. No rules interpretation/manipulation can make a passenger of an open topped vehicle use a firepoint ever. Since the faq specifically mentions firepoints, CCB and all open topped are not affect by it.

copper.talos wrote:Open topped is a quality of a transport. Firepoints are another quality. These are mutual exclusive. No rules interpretation/manipulation can make a passenger of an open topped vehicle use a firepoint ever. Since the faq specifically mentions firepoints, CCB and all open topped are not affect by it.

No open-top is a subgruop of Transports, Fire Points are a quality of all transports. To use the open-top subgroup you need to use all the transport rules, unless it says other wise. No where dose open-top say you don't use the fire point rules, just the have no specific fire points. Please point out rule where it says you do not use the fire point rule for open top, becouse I don't see it.

Noir wrote:

No open-top is a subgruop of Transports, Fire Points are a quality of all transports. To use the open-top subgroup you need to use all the transport rules, unless it says other wise. No where dose open-top say you don't use the fire point rules, just the have no specific fire points. Please point out rule where it says you do not use the fire point rule for open top, becouse I don't see it.

Exactly. The rules for firing from a vehicle come from the Fire Point rules. The Open Topped rules then tell you how they interact with those rules, since they don't have "specific" fire points.

Once again:

Lehnsherr wrote:What they are saying is that outside of the"Fire Points" section of the rulebook, you have no permission to use anything while embarked on a vehicle.

The Fire Points section gives you permission to shoot while embarked.

Then you look up "Open Topped" to determine how that specific rule interacts with "Fire Points" in order to be able to even fire to begin with.

The Open Topped section says to measure from the hull, as there are no "specific fire points" on an open topped vehicle.

In order to fire though, you still draw permission from the "Fire Points" section of the book, and according to the new FAQ which specifically mentions "Fire Points" Anrakyr can no longer use his ability while embarked on the CCB.

puma713 wrote:

Noir wrote:

No open-top is a subgruop of Transports, Fire Points are a quality of all transports. To use the open-top subgroup you need to use all the transport rules, unless it says other wise. No where dose open-top say you don't use the fire point rules, just the have no specific fire points. Please point out rule where it says you do not use the fire point rule for open top, becouse I don't see it.

Exactly. The rules for firing from a vehicle come from the Fire Point rules. The Open Topped rules then tell you how they interact with those rules, since they don't have "specific" fire points.

Once again:

Lehnsherr wrote:What they are saying is that outside of the"Fire Points" section of the rulebook, you have no permission to use anything while embarked on a vehicle.

The Fire Points section gives you permission to shoot while embarked.

Then you look up "Open Topped" to determine how that specific rule interacts with "Fire Points" in order to be able to even fire to begin with.

The Open Topped section says to measure from the hull, as there are no "specific fire points" on an open topped vehicle.

In order to fire though, you still draw permission from the "Fire Points" section of the book, and according to the new FAQ which specifically mentions "Fire Points" Anrakyr can no longer use his ability while embarked on the CCB.

That WAS my point.

Wow, I love Anrakyr and the mind of the machine combo on the barge... but even I'll agree, open topped = 1 large firepoint, it's right there in the BRB.

The combo is broken, move on to other combos.

If it was a subset it would have said something like "treat the whole vehicle as one firepoint". It doesn't say that. It gives separate and distinct rules on how to draw LoS and how to measure range. Therefore it is not a subset.
Anyway the argument still stands: No firepoints present = no firepoints used. If you want to add the entry "firepoints:1", I'll add "ceramite plating" and we'll call it even...

Copper - you have no permission to fire from a vehicle *except* by using the fire point rules.

Dont worry, its a common mistake youre making, but you ARE making one.

If you were to use the firepoint rules you'd first need one and secondly the rules would point you on firepoints on how to draw LoS and check range. It doesn't on both cases.

Copper, can you explain what the word specific is referring to in the open-topped rules?

They don't have a specific firing point - rather the entire vehicle is a limitless number of firing points. Or can you cite a rule allowing you to shoot without using firing points?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

copper.talos wrote:If you were to use the firepoint rules you'd first need one and secondly the rules would point you on firepoints on how to draw LoS and check range. It doesn't on both cases.

They don't have *one* firing point. They aren't limited by firing points. Since there isn't any one firing point to measure to/from, you use the hull.


Not having firing points means you cannot fire out.

nosferatu1001 wrote:Copper - you have no permission to fire from a vehicle *except* by using the fire point rules.

Dont worry, its a common mistake youre making, but you ARE making one.

I have to say, that's not how I read the rules.
The rules for open topped transport vehicles specifically give permission for all passengers to fire.

copper.talos wrote:If you were to use the firepoint rules you'd first need one and secondly the rules would point you on firepoints on how to draw LoS and check range. It doesn't on both cases.

So by that logic, Open-Top can never be fired out of. Or you have to use a fire point. Please, Please point to where it says Open-Top dose not need fire points. Note: It must say there don't use fire points, as "have no specific fire points" dose not say they can fire with out fire point.

That is your own opinion. Firepoints is a trait of a transport that needs to be present in its entry to be used. No firepoints present = no firepoints used. If you arbitrarily want to add a trait, I'll add one my self too.

Again, if the faq wanted to be used in all transports, then it wouldn't mention firepoints at all.

edit: Open topped vehicles have their own set of rules under "open topped". Not under "firepoints".

rigeld2 wrote:
Not having firing points means you cannot fire out.

Not true, the rules for open topped vehicles gives you permission to fire, just like the rules for fire points do on non-open topped vehicles.

Page 66, under Fire Points: "A transport vehicle may have a number of fire points defined. . ."

This tells us that not all transports have fire points, because the corrollary of 'may' is, of course, 'may not'. Any transport which does NOT have fire points will not look to an FAQ about fire points for guidance.

The paragraph goes on to say that one passenger may fire from each fire point, and other passengers may not fire.

Page 70, under Open-Topped Transport Vehicles: "Open-topped vehicles do not have specific fire points. Instead, all passengers in an open-topped vehicle may fire, measuring range and line of sight from the hull of the vehicle."

The bolded sentence is the one that shoots the 'open-topped vehicles use fire point rules' out of the water. We already know that not all transports have fire points; the first sentence in this paragraph informs us that open-topped transports fall into the category of 'transports without fire points'. Normally, therefore, nobody could fire from such a transport, because the rules for Transport Vehicles say that any passengers which cannot fire from a fire point cannot fire; but the second sentence says that yes, they can. Please note the word which begins this sentence; "Instead". That quite clearly tells us that open-topped transports DO NOT have any fire points, but passengers may STILL fire out.

This is a case of specific vs. general. An Open-Topped Transport Vehicle DOES have a number of fire points; that number is zero. You shouldn't be able to fire from them, EXCEOPT, the rules for Open-Topped Transport Vehicles (which are more specific than the rules for Transport Vehicles) say that any model in such a vehicle CAN fire, measuring from the hull.

The only way this can be interpreted is to say that models firing from an open-topped transport are NOT using fire points. An Open-Topped vehicle HAS no fire points; any fire point is a 'specific' fire point, and there is no rules support at all for any such thing as a 'general' or 'non-specific' fire point. You can't say that the whole hull is a fire point, because if the whole hull was a fire point than only one model could fire from it, which contradicts the rules for such vehicles; you can't say they have infinite fire points, either, because the number of fire points (just like the number of any other characteristic associated with a model) is listed in the model's profile, and open-topped transports do not have any. Trying to claim that models firing from an open-topped transport are using one or more fire points violates the rules, and requires changing a value (0, the number of fire points on an open-topped transports) when you don't have permission to do so.

Conclusion; An open-topped transport does not have any fire points, models embarked on such a transport do not use fire points, and the FAQ ruling regarding fire points does not affect open-topped transports in any way. Anrakyr can still use MitM while embarked on an (open-topped) CCB.

The Infinite wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:
Not having firing points means you cannot fire out.

Not true, the rules for open topped vehicles gives you permission to fire, just like the rules for fire points do on non-open topped vehicles.

No the rule for open top let you fire out of non-specific fire points.

BeRzErKeR wrote:Page 70, under Open-Topped Transport Vehicles: "Open-topped vehicles do not have specific fire points. Instead, all passengers in an open-topped vehicle may fire, measuring range and line of sight from the hull of the vehicle."

The bolded sentence is the one that shoots the 'open-topped vehicles use fire point rules' out of the water. We already know that not all transports have fire points; the first sentence in this paragraph informs us that open-topped transports fall into the category of 'transports without fire points'. Normally, therefore, nobody could fire from such a transport, because the rules for Transport Vehicles say that any passengers which cannot fire from a fire point cannot fire; but the second sentence says that yes, they can.

It's interesting that you didn't address the part of your quote that people are noting - the "do not have specific fire points". There's no limit to a physical location on the model of where the firing points are, rather the entire vehicle is a conglomeration of limitless firing points.

The second sentence says that yes they can through the non-specific firing point that is an open topped transport. That's what context tells me.

"Open-topped vehicles do not have specific fire points"

Note the word SPECIFIC. It means they DO have fire points

I am looking at the same quote that has been repeated a thousand times and I am not convinced that open topped means one big fire point.

No, it doesn't. As I said; every single fire point in the game is 'specific'. There is no such thing as a 'general' or 'non-specific' fire point.

The opposite of specific is general. Say the phrase 'general point' to yourself. Notice how it makes no sense at all? A point is, by definition, specific; that's what the word means. You cannot have a general point, and so you cannot have a general firing point, not without radically changing the definition of at least one of those words.

Also, since we're parsing individual words, you are both ignoring the word "Instead". The second sentence there is quite clearly an alternative, which overrides the more general fire point rules.

Context tells me that there are no fire points on an open-topped transport vehicle, and they have a special rule which allows passengers to fire anyway. Fire point FAQ rulings have nothing to do a vehicle that has no fire points.

EDIT: Further support. Only ONE model can ever fire through a fire point. But EVERY model in an open-topped transport vehicle can fire.

So you have, in an open-topped transport, something which is never called a fire point, and follows different rules than fire points. That thing. . . is not a fire point.

BeRzErKeR wrote:The opposite of specific is general. Say the phrase 'general point' to yourself. Notice how it makes no sense at all? A point is, by definition, specific; that's what the word means. You cannot have a general point, and so you cannot have a general firing point, not without radically changing the definition of at least one of those words.

No.... just no.

First of all, a general point does make sense to me. As in, "In general my point is..." or "Generally your point is correct, but this this and this are incorrect." but that has absolutely nothing to do with this.
Second, say the words specific firing to yourself. See how they make no sense without context? Wait - you mean taking a word out of a phrase potentially changes the definition of the phrase? Say it ain't so!
Third, nonspecific is referring to the inability of assigning a firing point to a physical location on the vehicle.

Also, since we're parsing individual words, you are both ignoring the word "Instead". The second sentence there is quite clearly an alternative, which overrides the more general fire point rules.

I absolutely did not ignore it. Since there are no rules for nonspecific firing points, the "instead" gives you rules.

Context tells me that there are no fire points on an open-topped transport vehicle, and they have a special rule which allows passengers to fire anyway. Fire point FAQ rulings have nothing to do a vehicle that has no fire points.

Context only says that if you misdefine phrases and read things subjectively.

edit because you edited:

EDIT: Further support. Only ONE model can ever fire through a fire point. But EVERY model in an open-topped transport vehicle can fire.

So you have, in an open-topped transport, something which is never called a fire point, and follows different rules than fire points. That thing. . . is not a fire point.

You're right - only one model can fire through a specific firing point (as in one of the 2 available in a Rhino). There's no limit on non-specific firing points.

My main issue with his being able to use the Mind in the Machine while embarked means the FAQ change is mostly useless.

Why would the change have been made to begin with, unless it was strictly done as a balance issue. So if we accept that this is a balancing issue, we then have to question why it would be ok for any model to use special rules or wargear while embarked on an open topped vehicle as compared to a tank. Thats an entirely unanswerable question, and pointless to even debate, I realize. That being said, this logical gap only opens up when we assume that an open topped vehicle does indeed have no fire points at all, rather than no "specific" fire points.

I am hoping that this is an oversight, as I said in the other thread. I do not read it that way at all, as "no specific fire points" is not equivalent to "no fire points". They do not have fire points listed in any codex for any open topped vehicle because that would be redundant. It would be odd to see "Fire points - Unlimited" in every codex. Rather, they tell you its open topped, you read the BRB to see what open topped is, and open topped vehicles do not have specific fire points.

This kills Anrakyr for me, as a playable HQ. There are much better options out there now, and I'd rather utilize those than waste points on Anrakyr while not being able to Mind in the Machine while embarked. If it turns out I am wrong, I will be ecstatic. Until the time in which the rules are clarified (I am suspecting a change in 6th will make this situation more clear) I will avoid fielding Anrakyr.

bagtagger wrote:I am looking at the same quote that has been repeated a thousand times and I am not convinced that open topped means one big fire point.

It isn't one, that would prevent other models from firing - which is not the case. There simply is not a limit on fire points.

rigeld2 wrote:

I absolutely did not ignore it. Since there are no rules for nonspecific firing points, the "instead" gives you rules.

Except it doesn't SAY that. That is something you are inserting.

Every model which has fire points listed has fire points located at a specific place on the model. These fire points are, it should be noted, NOT called 'specific' fire points; they are simply 'fire points'. Those rules should, therefore, apply to ALL fire points, specific or not. So, first objection, you have not shown that a 'nonspecific' fire point has different rules than a 'specific' one.

Open-topped transport vehicles are noted as not having any 'specific' fire points. This DOES NOT MEAN that they have 'nonspecific' fire points; it can mean just as well that they have NO fire points, because this is a negative statement, not a positive one. We already know that transports MAY have fire points; that is a positive statement, and also means that they may NOT have ANY fire points. The idea of a transport vehicle without fire points therefore exists within the ruleset. Furthermore, they have a special rule for firing, which doesn't require fire points to work! This leads to the second objection; you are inserting a rule where none exists. There is no requirement for an open-topped transport to have fire points of ANY kind, specific or non-specific; to claim that they do requires some kind of evidence, and I'm not seeing any.

rigeld2 wrote:
edit because you edited:

EDIT: Further support. Only ONE model can ever fire through a fire point. But EVERY model in an open-topped transport vehicle can fire.

So you have, in an open-topped transport, something which is never called a fire point, and follows different rules than fire points. That thing. . . is not a fire point.

You're right - only one model can fire through a specific firing point (as in one of the 2 available in a Rhino). There's no limit on non-specific firing points.

There's no such thing as a non-specific fire point at all. It simply doesn't exist within the rules.

You are assuming that a vehicle without specific fire points MUST have non-specific fire points, but that's an unjustified assumption.

In brief, you are committing the fallacy of composition. We know that some transport vehicles have fire points, and you are extrapolating from that fact the notion that ALL transport vehicles must have fire points. That isn't true, and there isn't any rules support for it. Transport vehicles MAY have fire points, but they are not required. The rules for open-topped transport vehicles do not in any way depend on the rules for fire points; they are quite clear and explicit. ". . . all passengers in an open-topped vehicle may fire, measuring range and line of sight from the hull of the vehicle." If the rules for fire points were excised completely from the book, some parts of the rules for open-topped transports would look strange, but they would still be completely functional.