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montrano wrote:i'll see if i can find some time and make up some slides. I got a devlan mud and some old gw paints circa 1996 that should be harbouring something if it can sustain life.
In the long term, it would be interesting to see what any microbes in the paint might be living off, presumably whatever substance it is would affect the properties of the paint

Or not! Your earlier post would suggest that 7 weeks is the maximum, at least for what I got.
16 years.... if you find anything, buy it a car.

A 12 ml bottle is a pretty small ecosystem. If its eating something in the paint, I'd guess that it would starve itself out fairly quickly.

Got ninjaed on my "why don't you just pour it into a test tube" question!

I so wish I had lab access right now... I'm dying to do a bioburden test, i.e. run some Devlan Mud through a filter, rinse with phosphate buffer and stick the filter on a plate (do some serial dilutions, of course). All the organisms will be on the filter, and grow when in contact with media. Personally, considering the product, I'd plate on a low nutrient agar like R2A, and also TSA as a more cozy environment. Doing this, you should get countable numbers of CFUs after incubation. This is a standard way to get a really good idea of the viable organisms per volume.

Once, long ago, I was involved in an investigation to determine why we were finding organisms in an aseptic clean room. We recovered Alcaligenes xylosidans out of a solution used to sterilize the clean room. Not sanitize - sterilize. Another time, I had to ID critters growing in a variety of buffers used for protein crystallization - nothing more than various chemicals in water, not stuff you'd think of as growth conducive, either. They had grown to the point of turbidity and little floaty puffballs in the buffers.

The point of these two examples is this: there is nothing about a paint filling operation that will come anywhere close to the clean controls in these two situations, above. Absolutely it will have bacteria, yeast and/ or mold. An organism like Shigella likely was in the water, or the hose used to clean the fill line, or the filler manifold, or any number of places. Also, paint has no preservatives* because it isn't intended to be consumed or spread on our bodies. All this meaning, paint is NOT sterile.

The organisms in the Devlan Mud could have come from anywhere in the manufacturing process. It does not surprise me in the least that organisms were recovered from it. I would certainly expect Bacillus and mold spores to propagate given nice cozy lab conditions. I also wouldn't be surprised at an organism being able to take advantage of the environment. Its not really that great for growth, so anything that CAN survive and propagate will have little competition. Certain organisms, given a niche, can grow where you'd least expect it. That said, I would more expect a pseudomonad than shigella, but critters are surprising.

montrano if you can get pics of the Gram stain, please do share! I'm really curious!

Archim3des, what method was used for the ID? If you want to take it to PM, please do feel free. I'll likely get really technical...

Edit - *correction. Paints can actually have preservatives that inhibit microbial growth, specifically to preserve product integrity and prevent odors. That said, "preservatives" are a lot more difficult to get right than folks may think. Many times, they are bacteriostatic, meaning they prevent growth but don't kill anything outright. Preservatives also lose potency after a while. That is assuming there are even preservatives at all...

Archim3des wrote:So I recently bought a pot of Devlan Mud wash in addition to some models.
Well, actually a tyranid army's worth of models, but that's not the point.

Anyway, I'd smelled a communal pot of the mud at the local GW, and it was bad.
This stuff was... Very potent.
I do material analysis for a job, so naturally I've got microscope. No need to tint the sample, as it is already tinted.

Oh holy hell the stuff is crawling with bacteria. I'm not sure what kind, that's for the lab I sent slides off to to determine.
What I AM sure of is that if I drop a few hundred dollars on models, I'd really like to get just pigment in my washes.
Maybe I'm overreacting, but if the labwork comes back as being anything but benign, I'm going to cause a huge stink.
A bigger stink than the wash, if possible.

Wow, that's a brutal profession

I'm secretly hoping it turns out to be e.coli or something awful. How does Bacteria survive in there? Is the paint itself a good food for them?

Wow, nice post, Gymnogyps! Didn't know how many scientists we had among us

I had no idea whether paint would have a "preservative" or not... the closest I get to that is, we have a water-based coolant that we use at work, and I added something to it to keep critters from growing in it, for exactly this reason...

Very interesting thread! For me its always a pleasure to learn something new and I appreciate you guys taking the time to do the research.

From a manufacturing stand point I would wager that the differences in both of your pots of wash come from the water scource used during the manufacturing process. Most likely the Wash in Snarky's pot was made using water from and underground scource either from a well or an aquafer or from a water supply that is treated chemically, whereas the Wash in Archim3des pot was made using water from an aboveground untreated scource like a river or holding pond.

Its fairly common in manufacturing around the world for water intensive plants to draw water directly from an above ground scource and this water, unless the end product is intended for human consumption does not have to be treated so long as it meets certain standards that vary depending on the country in question. Its also fairly common, although less common in developed countries, for an above ground water source to become contaminted by any number of different things including whats discussed earlier in this thread.

Thanks, RiTides. The more I dig into this topic, the more interested I get! Coolant... yeah. Critters would love that!

I had a couple of pots of the Mud early on, right after release, that did not reek like swampbutt. At some point, though, all have been rank, right at first opening. So having learned that paint formulations can include preservatives specifically to prevent odor, I'm thinking the formulation is allowing stinky organisms to grow...

This may all be moot if the rumors on a new paint manufacturer and formulation is true. New formulation will hopefully fix it.

I hope folks realize that when something stinks of butt, don't stick it in your mouth, right? Also, keep in mind, if the Mud is allowing organisms to grow, and you stick a brush full of it in your water rinse container... you've just inoculated your water. Water that is exposed to air, and has all sorts of organic stuff for the organisms to eat. So, yeah, brush licking doesn't seem wise. Especially when communal stuff is in the picture. Rugrats carry all sorts of nasty critters and are sure to get it in whatever they touch. LOL

Gymnogyps wrote:I had a couple of pots of the Mud early on, right after release, that did not reek like swampbutt. At some point, though, all have been rank, right at first opening. So having learned that paint formulations can include preservatives specifically to prevent odor, I'm thinking the formulation is allowing stinky organisms to grow...

Yeah, it sounds like a very plausible hypothesis!

Also, love the way you science people call these things "critters" at least when talking to non-scientists. That's the exact word our chief scientist here uses when talking to us engineers about this stuff

Hmm it seems that i shall have to boil my paint before i use it and thin it with alchohol and bleach.

^
I use rubbing alcohol to thin my paints, which should take care of at least most of the bugs. It also dries the paint faster, because of alcohol's faster rate of evaporation.

Deathklaat wrote:Hmm it seems that i shall have to boil my paint before i use it and thin it with alchohol and bleach.

Ha. I hope you're joking, because bacteria are everywhere. Easily a few pounds worth between your gut and the ones on your skin. Don't believe, me, look it up.

Joe Mama wrote:

Deathklaat wrote:Hmm it seems that i shall have to boil my paint before i use it and thin it with alchohol and bleach.

Ha. I hope you're joking, because bacteria are everywhere. Easily a few pounds worth between your gut and the ones on your skin. Don't believe, me, look it up.

We were talking about bacteria in my Bio class the other day, there is more bacteria in your large intestine, then there is in your entire body! It would be no surprise to me that there would be bacteria in paint,and even that it smells.

Ashton

Redfinger wrote:We were talking about bacteria in my Bio class the other day, there is more bacteria in your large intestine, then there is in your entire body! It would be no surprise to me that there would be bacteria in paint,and even that it smells.

Would it surprise you to learn that your large intestine is in fact part of "your entire body", and that that statement is therefore ridiculous?
Even taken as "than there is anywhere else in your body, large intestine not included", its not surprising. That's where all the plant and animal matter you've ingested has had the length of a house (I've got third grade science trivia too!) to travel by peristaltic motion, slowly rotting. There is more matter that you are going to expel into a toilet in your large intestine than anywhere else in your body!
Yes, bacteria are everywhere.

If you still think I'm surprised by this, please go test surfaces of your bathroom, kitchen, whatever - I've been tasked with the same but have refrained.
I'll bet five years salary that you will find bacteria there.
Now test your paint selection. Is there LESS bacteria there? LESS fecal bacteria than the rim of your toilet? There definitely should be!

MY problem is that when I (the lab) tested it, there was an equal amount. That is the source of my disgust. Not that bacteria exist.

I went ahead and spent the cash to have the five bottles tested, documented the transfer of materials to show I did not add anything.

Rtides- It might surprise you to learn how many science majors play these games! For me, I was attracted to a field where getting new shiny toys was a job requirement. The disposable income from said job is then spent on other shiny toys, albeit toys that do not relate to my job. At my FLGS, about 30% of the members are in similar situations.

Thsi is one of the most informative threads I have seen in a long time! Bacteria in the Devlan Mud Wash? Papa Nurgle would be proud!

Joe Mama wrote:

Deathklaat wrote:Hmm it seems that i shall have to boil my paint before i use it and thin it with alchohol and bleach.

Ha. I hope you're joking, because bacteria are everywhere. Easily a few pounds worth between your gut and the ones on your skin. Don't believe, me, look it up.

"Objection Your Honor, asked and answered."
"Sustained, move it along counselor."

Lets face it I can imagine a couple of easy scenarios that would create this result...
Man works in factory and visits the toilet during his break, he washes his hands but flushes the toilet first meaning there is feacle matter aresol from the flush in the room while he washes his hands then he opens the door and picks up some feacle bacteria.... he walks back to the production line and continues unpacking empty paint pots onto the conveyor transfering trace amounts of bacteria to the pots he touches....

I am not worried about small amounts of bacteria in my paint as they'll be everywhere in similar trace amounts however it is very interesting....

I'm not a scientist yet, but a neuroscience student at the moment, so bacteria arent my strong suit.
I originally trained as an electronics engineer, so have a healthy inquisitive mind.
Of the people i still know from the old school war games club, the majority are in technical careers.

Shocked by how many posters in this thread keep bringing up how much bacteria there is on everything else. That's not really the point.

Like one of the other posters here, I had two pots of Devlan Mud early on that didn't stink but the six that I've been through since stank to high heaven - initially not so much but after opening the smells became progressively worse. My miniatures smell terrible after using the stuff and the length of time it takes for the smell to wear off appears to be increasing.

Also, while many people here were mocking the thought of putting brushes in one's mouth (a habit I'm trying hard to break), nobody has mentioned that these bacteria will be aerosolized by passing the paint through an airbrush. I can tell you from sad experience that a room in which Devlan Mud has been sprayed through an airbrush remains stinky and foul for quite some time.

Not trying to be a jerk or anything but bacteria is EVERYWHERE, so I don't get the big fuss.

Skulleater wrote:Not trying to be a jerk or anything but bacteria is EVERYWHERE, so I don't get the big fuss.

Bacteria are everywhere not is your describing a group of things not an individual

Let's try and keep to topic please people

Skulleater wrote:Not trying to be a jerk or anything but bacteria is EVERYWHERE, so I don't get the big fuss.

Some people have a thing against poop, or they really don't know that bacteria are everywhere. Either of those can be the cause of the "fuss" not that there is much fuss here.

I must say this thread has probably been more informative to more people than a lot of other threads out there.

Yowzah, how me miss dis?
What a great thread, thouroughly enjoyable read.

angryboy2k wrote:Shocked by how many posters in this thread keep bringing up how much bacteria there is on everything else. That's not really the point.

That is the point for pretty much everyone here. The smell is secondary, as it should be, since us nerds already smell bad to begin with. So what if a different stinkyness happens, things are still stinky either way.

nobody has mentioned that these bacteria will be aerosolized by passing the paint through an airbrush.

Well now you mentioned it, and you are somebody. We'll see if a science dude can explain to us how unlikely it is for a few airborne bacteria to do anything to us at all. I reckon unless you are spraying the paint directly up your nose and into your mouth, you should be safe from infection. Heck, your probably still safe even if you do that. But I am not a scientologist, so don't take my word for it.

Joe Mama wrote:

angryboy2k wrote:Shocked by how many posters in this thread keep bringing up how much bacteria there is on everything else. That's not really the point.

That is the point for pretty much everyone here. The smell is secondary, as it should be, since us nerds already smell bad to begin with. So what if a different stinkyness happens, things are still stinky either way.

nobody has mentioned that these bacteria will be aerosolized by passing the paint through an airbrush.

Well now you mentioned it, and you are somebody. We'll see if a science dude can explain to us how unlikely it is for a few airborne bacteria to do anything to us at all. I reckon unless you are spraying the paint directly up your nose and into your mouth, you should be safe from infection. Heck, your probably still safe even if you do that. But I am not a scientologist, so don't take my word for it.

I thought the point was bacteria of a specific type in large numbers being in a place that it is highly unlikely for said bacteria to be in that number. The secondary point being is this an isolated incident, or is it endemic to the line. We all know that bacteria is everywhere, and in numbers that are shocking to folks. The point of this thread was the AMOUNT, not that there was bacteria.

For all the special service announcements about bacteria being everywhere.

We know.

Seriously.

All these repeats of the same tired platitude is contributing nothing to the discussion.

We can all assume everyone here knows bacteria are everywhere.

If you don't understand why this discussion is occurring, please read the thread.

Since reading comprehension seems to be an issue, here is a summary.

Contamination by disease causing organisms has the potential to cause people to get sick. It is a cross contaminant risk as well as risk of direct exposure.

Even normal organisms, at very high numbers, can cause disease or health concerns.

Organisms can and do cause product quality issues, which has nothing to do with health, but just the product.

No single one of these things are proven to be happening.

But this is why this thread is interesting.

It would be a shame for this thread to be closed because people are refusing to comprehend or be open to learning. Or because they think because they don't get it, it has no value. This thread is an excellent opportunity, don't ruin it with your ignorance.

This goes for all the silly pedantic games occurring here.

Edit- phone posting problems.

Also, aerosolizing and breathing an organism into your lungs can significantly change what it does to you. Can. Does not mean will. Some examples- look up the various forms of anthrax or Naegleria fowleri.

angryboy2k wrote:Shocked by how many posters in this thread keep bringing up how much bacteria there is on everything else. That's not really the point.

Like one of the other posters here, I had two pots of Devlan Mud early on that didn't stink but the six that I've been through since stank to high heaven - initially not so much but after opening the smells became progressively worse. My miniatures smell terrible after using the stuff and the length of time it takes for the smell to wear off appears to be increasing.

Also, while many people here were mocking the thought of putting brushes in one's mouth (a habit I'm trying hard to break), nobody has mentioned that these bacteria will be aerosolized by passing the paint through an airbrush. I can tell you from sad experience that a room in which Devlan Mud has been sprayed through an airbrush remains stinky and foul for quite some time.

Just wanted to quote this, and agree with Gymnogyps above.

What I'd REALLY like to know, is if the stronger smell (that has been mentioned by many posters) correlates to larger colonies of bacteria in the wash. Beyond that, if it affects the performance of the wash as the bacteria to "other" ratio increases.

There's a lot of potential here, let's stay on track

Joe Mama wrote:Some people have a thing against poop, or they really don't know that bacteria are everywhere.

Well now you mentioned it, and you are somebody. We'll see if a science dude can explain to us how unlikely it is for a few airborne bacteria to do anything to us at all. I reckon unless you are spraying the paint directly up your nose and into your mouth, you should be safe from infection. Heck, your probably still safe even if you do that. But I am not a scientologist, so don't take my word for it.

Please lose the condescending schtick. It's flamebaiting and that is against our rules. In case you are wondering, the orange parts of your text below are the most egregious examples of this. Avoid it in the future or your account will be suspended. There is no need to insult other posters to make your point. Attempting to infuriate them will not make them pay more attention to your argument and any intelligent readers will not confuse your attempt at wit with being convincing. Thanks. ~Manchu

You're so close to getting it. You've got all the fundamentals, let me see if I can arrange them in a new way for you so that it clicks together.

Bacteria are everywhere! Good boy, Joe! Have a treat!
But how did they get there? Let's look at the most obvious place fecal bacteria exist (other than your large intestine), the bathroom. When you flush, you smell some poo. That's because tiny amounts of poo get ionized into the air, and you are literally inhaling the poop to smell it. Some of it lands other places.
Still with me? The "Heck, your probably still safe even if you do that" part is right, even if you were wrong in the previous sentence. Yes! Good!

Now, stay with me here!
Is bacteria that is in a pot of wash (primarily water) in the air? Nooooo, it's not! Its in the water! Another treat for you.
What does all life, including bacteria, need in order to fill out the space between its cell walls? Water! Again, good job!
Focus, boy, focus! Don't look at the hand I'm holding the treats with! Look at me!
Ok, now once the tiny amounts of bacteria have traveled through the air (where, again, they are mostly harmless) and landed in a medium that supports life, the very very smaaaallll amount of bacteria get a chance to do the mommy-daddy hug. Whats that? Yes, very good. Its not really a mommy-daddy hug, but a process where one cell splits into two, and two into four, and so on at an exponential rate of growth! Ex-po-nen-tial. Yeeeesss. But essentially the small amount of bacteria (harmless, everywhere) has become, very quickly, a LARGE amount of bacteria.

This is because bacteria don't like to reproduce on the kitchen counter. I might, you might, but they dont!
They like to reproduce in a place with food and water that allows them to grow!

So my paint pot got sick, you see? And If I'm not careful, I could get sick too! All because few bacteria became a writhing mass of bacteria.
To review.
Small amount of bacteria good. Ok. Normal even.
Large amount of bacteria bad. Not ok. Harmful, even.
There is a large amount of bacteria in the wash I had tested. Bad. Not ok.

This, combined with the idea (that not everyone agrees with!) that poop, outside of a large intestine, toilet bowl, or really anywhere - Its not something most people would like to have contact with.
A test: Take some feces and rub it on your cheek. Whats that? You don't want that? Its gross? Ok, just rub it on your model then. Just a little. Again, no?
Well then I really don't see your continued objection to my having a problem with it being in my paint.

Ignoring your treating me like dog (offering me treats, saying good boy and the like) and other rule breaking shenanigans from you...

Archim3des wrote:Small amount of bacteria good. Ok. Normal even.
Large amount of bacteria bad. Not ok. Harmful, even.

Quite simply, 100% wrong. The first time kids learn about bacteria in school, they are informed that there are good bacteria and bad bacteria. There is a LARGE amount of bacteria in/on your skin. That's normal and good, because it takes up space and makes it hard for the bad stuff to grow there. There is a LARGE, EXTREMELY LARGE amount of bacteria in the gut. Which is good, because if it wasn't there, we'd all be in trouble. Or dead.


Personal attacks are against Dakka Dakka Rule #1. On the level of personal ethics, please extend to your opponent the same courtesies you demand of him. Thanks. ~Manchu

There is a large amount of bacteria in the wash I had tested. Bad. Not ok.

I guess I missed this before. What is this "large" amount of bacteria? What is considered large? Is that what microbiologists and infectious disease specialists consider large? What's the standard? Also, speaking of standards, how many samples are you going to test? Considering how there can be variation over the whole population of wash pots, and considering how your methods are not always perfect, how many samples are you going to test, and what's your protocol for testing them? When will we reach statistical significance?

Ratius wrote:I lol'd at some parts Archi but maybe tone down the sarcasm a tiny bit, it was a good post but still everyone has different levels of knowledge and that has to be considered too.

Short of spoon feeding the basic hygiene knowledge past a now banal "bacteria are everywhere1" level of understanding, I'm officially out of other methods.
Not having the knowledge is ok. Repeating false information over and over though... less ok.

Joe, when certain types of bacteria leave the gut, and re-enter the body by fecal-oral route, it becomes harmful, where before it was not.
Shigella Sonnei is one of these types of bacteria.
I'm testing six pots total. One, the original pot, and the five more that were sent off yesterday.

reds8n wrote: Let's try and keep to topic please people

<This.>

Last warning, folks - tone it down, or people are going to start losing posting privileges real quick. You're annoying quite a few mods simultaneously.