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Scipio Africanus wrote:They're a parasite, but they're a good parasite, like a woman with a baby.

They're undeveloped, but eventually they'll grow into their oedipus complex and kill the father (GW) and marry the mother (wargaming as a whole, I guess.)

But Jocasta then ran off and killed herself. So... yeah.

As for the parasite argument - it doesn't work. By such a broad definition, everything is parasitic, as every organism on the planet requires something in order to survive, but there are definitions between, for example, predatory and parasitic behaviours.

EDIT: Any company is thus a parasite, even ones who make their own product. Those products need to be made from something, thus they are parasitically leeching from other companies who sell similar products, or who also require to deal with the same plastic supplier, or whatever.

And now we're up to 11 people cuddling up with their HHHobby blankets at night, making them feel nice and safe from the big bad world of parasitic 3rd party companies (including PP!).

InquisitorVaron wrote:GW wouldn't have to invest so much money in a crack legal team if people didn't constantly infringe their IP.

No come on really. You don't actually believe that do you?

Pacific wrote:

Howard A Treesong wrote:The feel of the original genestealers was very Alien when Space Hulk was first released, but Tyranids in general went 'big bugs' after the Starship Troopers film was released.

I remember looking at the 1st edition Space Hulk box and the chap in the shop describing at as 'Aliens the boardgame'. There was absolutely no pretence at it being anything else, although that is not necessarily a bad thing, and in fact the release of the game itself was timed so that the movie was still fresh in people's minds.

But, in the same way that I don't think anyone (except those who have limited knowledge of other fictions) would describe Nids as being completely original, what is really these days? It's a struggle to find anything (especially in the Science Fantasy area) which hasn't been done before.

And that is ULTIMATELY the point. There are people in this thread who are claiming that third party manufactures are parasites for copying GW... but either refuse to acknowledge the many places where GW has copied othes, or claimed that it GW is right to do so in spite of their position on third party manufacturers.

There is a word for it, and it's not a very nice one. Begins with an H, ends with ypocrisy....

LakotaWolf wrote:here is a thought to process..........if you think that the third party companies are parasites...........technically so isnt anyone who trades or sells used stuff............in both cases it eats away at the profits of the company who makes the product

I don't think you understand this topic.

"Third party companies" which are creating products to profit off of the IP of GW--whether or not it is a full product ala the Doomseer or a conversion kit ala the Stormraven extension kit--is what is being talked about here.
You cannot say that private individuals who are trading or selling their used products are in the same category as a company which has created itself specifically to subsist off the IP of others.

Pacific wrote:I remember looking at the 1st edition Space Hulk box and the chap in the shop describing at as 'Aliens the boardgame'. There was absolutely no pretence at it being anything else, although that is not necessarily a bad thing, and in fact the release of the game itself was timed so that the movie was still fresh in people's minds.

Did you ever think it was because of the fact that the overall feel of the game was supposed to evoke that same atmosphere?

If you're having to describe something to someone, you use concepts they're familiar with. If I were to describe a television show to you--I would use examples based upon things I know you would understand.

But, in the same way that I don't think anyone (except those who have limited knowledge of other fictions) would describe Nids as being completely original, what is really these days? It's a struggle to find anything (especially in the Science Fantasy area) which hasn't been done before.

I dunno. In terms of how the Tyranids are presented now, I'm having a bit of a blank on things which are similar enough to call the Tyranids "ripoffs".
People love to point at Heinlein's "Bugs" as an example, but if you have read "Starship Troopers" you'd know the only commonality is the fact that they have multiple legs and carry guns.

Kanluwen wrote:
I dunno. In terms of how the Tyranids are presented now, I'm having a bit of a blank on things which are similar enough to call the Tyranids "ripoffs".
People love to point at Heinlein's "Bugs" as an example, but if you have read "Starship Troopers" you'd know the only commonality is the fact that they have multiple legs and carry guns.

Starcraft

Redbeard wrote:

weeble1000 wrote:
Just walk through this with me, if you would....

It's not about wearing robes, it's about wearing robes in the exact same style. With an armless over-robe piece and a long flowing sleeve. It's not about wearing a pointed helmet, it's about wearing a pointed helmet with the exact same face cutout. It's not about wearing plated armour, it's about wearing a breastplate made of sculpted runes. It's not about having a sword, it's about having a sword with the exact same hilt and blade curvatures.

It's not about whether it's reasonable to have a humanoid figure in robes and plate armour with a high helmet and a sword. Because that's a very generic statement and applies to all sorts of models, the vast majority of which don't infringe on anyone else's designs. It's that this specific chapterhouse model has taken several very specific designs and copied them.

It is apparent that we agree about the basic principle that I described in my earlier post. It may interest you to know that this is a fundamental principle of copyright law. The elements that I described earlier (humanoid figure, robes, plated armor, peaked helmet, etc. etc.) could quite easily be said to be inseparable from the idea or concept. Thus, including those basic elements within the protection of any given expression would be tantamount to protecting the underlying idea or concept.

Now, regarding your point about the specific details of those elements, I will further encourage you to flip that argument around once again and, as I suggested earlier, apply it to the Tyranids in comparison to Geiger's works.

An alien monster with a chitinous exoskeleton is a generic concept, and I think we can agree on that. But just as you are keen to compare the specific details of the Doomseer's armor, robes, sword, helmet, etc. with what you consider to be an Eldar "design," do so with regard to the specific details of Geiger's works.

Is not the exoskeleton of any Tyranid creature ribbed in a very particular way? Do the limbs not have oval spaces filed with a ridged material? Are the hands of, say, the genestealers not shaped in a distinct manner? Are the heads of, say, warriors and other Tyranid creatures not decorated with a broad, detailed crest of of bony carapace?

What you seem intent on pointing out are very specific details that you feel are evocative of a "design." And yet where does your understanding of that design come from? You've drawn on a broad range of expressions to formulate, in your mind, the specific details that "belong" to the Eldar.

Certainly, one could point out that Geiger's drawings are not the same as the Alien Queen from Aliens, that the works were made by different authors and artists, and that no Tyranid creature is plainly evocative of all the elements of any one particular expression. And yet those expressions are bound together by a rich fictional universe that has spawned 7 feature films, comic books, scores of novels, video games, card games, and even figurines.

Similarly, I would argue that you cannot point to a single "Eldar" work that the Doomseer's "Eldar" design elements are taken from. You seem to feel that it is not right for the Doomseer model to use discrete elements inspired by a range of expressions because those expressions are bound together by a rich fictional universe that has spawned novels, video games, card games, an animated movie, etc. You seem to feel that the model is "wrong" because you can slap it on a table in a game of 40K and players will know roughly what it is supposed to represent. It is the fictional universe which provides that context along with the confines of the game that you are both knowingly participating in.

But is not the Aliens universe just as, or even much more, richly detailed that the Warhammer 40,000 fictional universe? If another publisher had produced an Aliens themed table-top wargame prior to the release of the genestealers, would that fact, in your opinion, have made it "wrong" for Games Workshop to have released the genestealer models? When you stand everything together, the only point of difference you are left with on any meaningful basis is this.

Now, I will pose a new question. Do you think it is fair for an assemblage of semi-related works to allow an author to severally control the various elements of those works? As in, should one type of design element, such as a round gem in a sword, be owned by anyone in particular?

Personally, it's a bit of a grey area. I think they fill a need in the hobby. GW's wave release bs and incomplete product line fuels the necessity for such things.

However, I despise Chapterhouse and hope they burn. Their attitude gives impression that they're a bunch of self righteous, pompous donkey-caves.

...Flame away Chapterhouse fan boys.

Illumini wrote:

Kanluwen wrote:
I dunno. In terms of how the Tyranids are presented now, I'm having a bit of a blank on things which are similar enough to call the Tyranids "ripoffs".
People love to point at Heinlein's "Bugs" as an example, but if you have read "Starship Troopers" you'd know the only commonality is the fact that they have multiple legs and carry guns.

Starcraft

Your point?

I mean, you must not be aware of the history surrounding Blizzard and GW if you think that GW ripped off Blizzard.

All one needs to do is look at Tyranid Warriors pre- and post-Starcraft to see the sudden similarities.

And yes, I know the history of SC and 40K.

Kanluwen wrote:

Pacific wrote:I remember looking at the 1st edition Space Hulk box and the chap in the shop describing at as 'Aliens the boardgame'. There was absolutely no pretence at it being anything else, although that is not necessarily a bad thing, and in fact the release of the game itself was timed so that the movie was still fresh in people's minds.

Did you ever think it was because of the fact that the overall feel of the game was supposed to evoke that same atmosphere?

Yes, that stands to reason. I'm not sure what you are trying to argue there exactly?

I would say that the concept itself of nasty Insect-like-looking Aliens coming to Earth and eating our brains is one of the oldest tropes in Science Fiction, and the subject matter of many a (appalling but entertaining) B-movie.

I realise though that we are skirting round the issue here, which is that Chapterhouse's 'aliens' were quite obviously meant to be very specific examples of GW's own interpretation of that type of alien.

The first answer is correct.

Kanluwen wrote:

Illumini wrote:

Kanluwen wrote:
I dunno. In terms of how the Tyranids are presented now, I'm having a bit of a blank on things which are similar enough to call the Tyranids "ripoffs".
People love to point at Heinlein's "Bugs" as an example, but if you have read "Starship Troopers" you'd know the only commonality is the fact that they have multiple legs and carry guns.

Starcraft

Your point?

I mean, you must not be aware of the history surrounding Blizzard and GW if you think that GW ripped off Blizzard.

What HBMC said.

I'm aware of their history. Current nids ripped of the starcraft zerg look.

oni wrote:Personally, it's a bit of a grey area. I think they fill a need in the hobby. GW's wave release bs and incomplete product line fuels the necessity for such things.

However, I despise Chapterhouse and hope they burn. Their attitude gives impression that they're a bunch of self righteous, pompous donkey-caves.

...Flame away Chapterhouse fan boys.

You can't be the same person that said this:
http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/352562.page#2542449

If I had the money I would be buying much more - in the air right now as it is about buying pre-heresy looking terminator shoulder pads...or getting the FW World Eater kit...

Hello,
I think of people using terms like parasite rather unnessarily to get a reaction, or to self immoliate thier post. they want you to see they are flaming another company, and that they are the bastion of what is right and wrong in free world economics. However, companies like this have always existed, and will continue to as they serve a need. Are they advertising wrongly? Perhaps, however the need for you to purchase the base companies IP property should make them think twice about the overall winner. The nids'... well their current look is not GW exclusive as we know, I have a book I need to find to show you the art of the new weapon sytles from the 90s to prove that artists do this all the time (Kryomech). In reality, I believe GW wants to win the Chapterhouse case to further thier "lock" on what ever idea they steal, after all look at the Raging Heros Lammasu, GW made nothing close to it, it is Bablyonian in nature yet they claim IP? They send the C and D orders because they can. many are afraid of of the giant, so when certain companies chose to stand against them, thier supporters will cry foul, and now apparently parasite.

Regards,
Carl

oni wrote:Personally, it's a bit of a grey area. I think they fill a need in the hobby. GW's wave release bs and incomplete product line fuels the necessity for such things.

However, I despise Chapterhouse and hope they burn. Their attitude gives impression that they're a bunch of self righteous, pompous donkey-caves.

...Flame away Chapterhouse fan boys.

I have purchased from them, I received a good product, delivered quickly, and Ill purchase from them again.

Just burns ya up doesnt it?...


Automatically Appended Next Post:

theQuanz wrote:If I had the money I would be buying much more - in the air right now as it is about buying pre-heresy looking terminator shoulder pads...or getting the FW World Eater kit...

I got some from Chapterhouse, clean casts, nice product. Im using heads from Puppetswar to go with them.

theQuanz wrote:If I had the money I would be buying much more - in the air right now as it is about buying pre-heresy looking terminator shoulder pads...or getting the FW World Eater kit...

Funny enough I know a guy who is selling a WE forgeworld army, if you are interested please send a tell (pm) and I will send you pics. This has been a shameless promotion from FGMike. =o]

Well.. I'd have no interest in buying them, but I sure would love to see them (in spoiler tags, so they don't derail the thread) if you have any links handy?

Are companies that sell screen protectors and stuff for cell phones parasites too? I use Creative speakers for my HP laptop. Is that Creative parasiting on HP?

Goodyear is parasiting on Daimler and Ford

Hehe, yeah exactly. My local health clinic is parasiting on my local Thai food place

oni wrote:Personally, it's a bit of a grey area. I think they fill a need in the hobby. GW's wave release bs and incomplete product line fuels the necessity for such things.

However, I despise Chapterhouse and hope they burn. Their attitude gives impression that they're a bunch of self righteous, pompous donkey-caves.

...Flame away Chapterhouse fan boys.

What attitude do you mean with this?

Is it the attitude that causes them to advertise that their product is for GW models or something else? I remember reading that the reason they advertise that their bits are for GW mini's is because a lawyer told them it was ok to do so.

I, personally, have more issue with the companies that hide behind barely concealed descriptions of their products intent and rely on others to show what the part is being used as. That is a cowardly way to do business. They are still doing the same thing Chapterhouse is. The only difference is Chapterhouse got legal counsel regarding their rights and the rest of the companies just hide and hope.

Regardless, if Chapterhouse goes down for some reason, in this lawsuit nonsense, you can bet that GW will be on the rest of the 3rd party "parasites" faster than you can blink. They will suffer just as much, which means that gamers will suffer as well.

Some if not most of the third party model vendors are rip offs or scams, well it seems so to me. I have bought a few bits from third party vendors but it was because all of the specific individual bits I wanted from GWS were not available unless the entire kit was bought. The sites that had the individual pieces I wanted were sold out or again you had to buy the whole kit so I found something to suit my needs. I don't like having to do that though and I would much rather buy from GWS they spawned the game and it's ideas they deserve they money made off anything related to their work

Again, it is interesting that in spite of ever rising responses to the poll, the relative percentages have remained remarkably consistent from virtually the first few minutes of the poll until now.

I think that the data is becoming increasingly compelling.

Ugh. I had to sign in because I've just finished reading all 7 pages of this squawble, and felt the need to put my two cents in. I don't play Eldar, but if I did, I would buy a Doomseer or whatever, because, it reminds me of the female farseer in Dawn of War. And about every Farseer in any Eldar related BL book I've read. GW doesn't sell one, so it doesn't hurt their sales. CHS hasn't copied anything, in the strictest sense of copying. Not like (a website in our local gaming group we call ForgeryWorld), who make cheap resin knock offs of GW parts. And while I may or may not have purchased various Ork glyphs and such for my extensive Ork conversions, they *are* a parasite. They blatently copy even plastic and metal kits, in *full* from GW's range. Their "bits" are resin copies of practically everything in the Blood Angels range... They sell a "bits kit" of the Tomb Kings warsphinx. This, is what GW should be going after, but apparently find hard to even shut down for long. Not Chapterhouse. I can't say that I've ever bought anything from them, since they cater to armies I don't play, but I like their jetbikes for the Spesh Marinesh, and if my Templars had jetbikes, I might get one for them. They simply provide *alternatives*. Now, in my Steel Legion/DKOK (as in Aus, FW guard armies are cheaper than the errr severely limited range of metal minis for my favorite chapter of 40k history, aka Armageddon) army, I use a completely random model I purchased from CMON, as Guardsman Marbo. I feel no real reason why we shouldn't be able to substitute as we see fit, to cusomize our armies, in a way we see fit. I know I could *never* manage to sculpt a female farseer, let alone one that looks as nice as the sculpting in the CHS model in question. So, if GW doesn't supply a model, what harm is there in buying a model that fits in with your army? (I must mention that the model I use for Marbo doesn't fit in with the whole gas mask, greatcoat wearing theme of Steel Legion, but I like it, and I would have liked it even more if it did fit the theme.) I feel that the CHS "Doomseer" in question is perfectly alright. Resin copies of actual GW models, not alright. If people feel they shouldn't be purchased, due to their morals being offended, couldn't you, if you liked the model, purchase the "official" GW male Farseer, and throw it in your bits box, to appease your morals? GW still gets a sale, and you support variety, and customizability... As far as say, AoW, Warpath/Kings of War, and uhhh Wargames Factory go, they aren't really any different CHS, Puppetswar, etc... They just slapped an "original" story onto their models, and (don't know about AoW, to be honest) made their ruleset later (Kings of War I believe), or in Wargames Factory's case, no rules at all, just generic greatcoat sci-fi human soldiers fighting under Alien Suns... (That being said, I appreciate these games, and minis, and I do not feel they are copies of GW's product either). Ok, I feel better now.

That site in particular, Sarge, is in China, so there's probably little GW can do to them.

Oh yes, H.B.M.C, I know that, and I know that they can't do very much to them at all. I just didn't want to help anyone out and be seen to be breaching the forum rules, I know it took me a lot of work to find the site for myself lol. But, I guess my point with them was, they are doing nothing to help the hobby, and if you get unlucky and think you are buying legitimate Forge World stuff on say, eBay, and someone say, is selling ForgeRY World stuff *as* Forge World, then that won't help the hobby out at all. People would think the castings and resin itself was subpar. (especially if you are new in the hobby, as I was when I started playing, heck I bought an epic Gargant because it was labeled as a Stompa and I thought it *was* a Stompa! Heh) I was trying to distinguish between legitimate threats to GW, and to Third Party Bitz Makers....

No you're completely right. GW seems to expend a massive amount of effort on stomping down on guys who are essentially casting bits from their garage, which are designed to work alongside GW bits for the most part, while meanwhile presumably concerted, well funded efforts in China and Russia continue to pump out re-casts of official models at a price lower than the RRP and then sell them on ebay. Which is going more damage to the company's sales?

As H.B.M.C. says it must just come down to location. At present Eastern Europe seems to be beyond the arm of the law, or perhaps Maxmini and the like have survived through careful naming and display of their products. AFAIK there isn't a single UK based supplier of 3rd party parts that has survived - not just Warsmith Miniatures, who had to stop making their true scale stuff (which pissed a LOT of people off), but a bunch of other small producers have also had to stop selling. Those that do survive do so by keeping their net presence to a minimum, and selling through a network of 'acquaintances' who will only pass on the purchasing information to others who know them, and so on. It's all very VC French Of course, that doesn't help someone who is new to wargaming, but with a little persistence and a few emails it is usually possible to find those producers.

Of course really the real issue here is a 'legal team' of expensive solicitors who have to justify their existence. Do you really think 99% of the GW staff give a damn about Fred Blogs making some mk1 shoulder pads in his basement? Of course not, and I'd put money on a bunch of the staff who actually play the game having those components in their armies - and in fact, having seen some of those armies in person I know this to be the case. It's just a typical example of what happens when a company becomes too large, and starts to collect detritus along with it which leads to a perversion of what that company was originally about.

You can only blame GW for the popularity of the Remoras of the table top community.

GW release 1/3 of a model range and expect players to sit and wait for months maybe years for a 2nd wave etc... why they cant produce the entire range at once is beyond me since while they are releasing the first wave they usually release other stuff as well.

The main issue that GW has always had ian inability to focus on one army or theme for more than 30 seconds. Its like they all have ADHD and run around the office trying to release as much as possible even if the game dosent need it.

I believe 3rd party designers benefit from GW's inability to finish the job and deserve to stick around and be supported by the fans.

366 responses to the poll and the relative percentages are still substantively the same as when the poll was first posted and there were fewer than 100 responses. This is very interesting data. It makes me curious to see what would happen if a similar question solicited a response on a 5 or 10 point scale such as: Strongly Agree, Agree, Undecided, Disagree, Strongly Disagree. Nevertheless, the results are very interesting indeed.