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Hulksmash wrote:I'm cool with competition. I'm all for Warmahordes, Mantic, The Perry's games, Dust Warfare and the like. I think that's the only way that GW will have competition and possibly readdress some of their business practices. But all of those are creating games and models to compete. They are creating their own worlds and identities. I'm totally cool with that.

As for my other "assumption" I don't think Puppet'sWar would cease to exist. I do think they might have existed at all without GW and that they'd be hammered hard if GW went away.

If I was wrong about your assumptions, please correct me. I'm not allergic to admitting it when I'm wrong. I was simply stating why I don't think the term "parasite" is accurate here, and your post was fresh in my mind.

Hulksmash wrote:I think that without GW the 3rd party bitz market might not exist at all if everything else in the market was the same. If GW, through the years, hadn't encouraged customability and converting inside of their massive universe then none of this would exist as it stands.

Agreed. GW has done a number of good things for this hobby. I don't want to give the impression that I don't like GW. I'm clearly a big fan, or I wouldn't be here on Dakka. But being the best/biggest in the market doesn't give them some sort of free pass or immunity to capitalism. If the company does some good and then just rests on its laurels, it will stagnate and die very quickly. I'd rather not see that happen, so I happily embrace the 3rd party imitators and what they do. Partly because they keep the big movers and shakers moving and shaking, and partly because sometimes the 3rd party imitators do it better.

Hulksmash wrote:Think of Warmahordes (the closest thing GW currently has to a real competitor). How many people convert models for their armies? How many 3rd party bitz are made for Warmachine or Hordes? "Unique" armies don't really exist there from what I've seen at events and game nights.

I've seen a rare few conversions, but in all honesty I think this has more to do with market share. If the other companies were bigger in the industry, they'd draw their fair share of the 3rd party imitators.

Hulksmash wrote:Just ethically dislike straight stand-in kits for GW's, or anyone elses, games. Just my thoughts.

I can respect that. For me, at worst I'd consider potentially shady generic brands to be "in bad taste" rather than morally wrong, but that's a minor quibble. And, of course, a company that uses GW's trademarks and copyrighted material is still in the wrong.

I'm using GW minis and bitz for other games for some years now so... GW is a damn parasite

Are third party makers of anything parasites? Yes. Is it a legal and accepted business strategy? Yes.

So many markets for so many things depend on third party manufacturers... why not toys?

BladeWalker wrote:Are third party makers of anything parasites? Yes.

Not everything that lives off of something else is a parasite. Parasitic relationships are defined as one partner benefiting at the expense of the other. There are also symbiotic relationships, where each party is strengthened.

I would never have bought a Stormraven, without the Chapterhouse mod kit. I think it's ridiculous looking in its stock form. In this case, GW benefited from the Chapterhouse kit - they made a sale they would otherwise not have made, and Chapterhouse benefited as they sold the mod kit which they'd never have sold without the Stormraven being produced. Both sides (and me) win.

There are also parasitic examples, where Chapterhouse has produced a model (Doomseer) that costs GW a sale. That case is definitely parasitic. But I don't think the upgrade kits are.

That is a good distinction, I see your point. Parasite implies harm to the host, in most cases the third party bits aren't costing sales like you said they are making more of them.

GW don't make any female Farseer models.

Thus it isn't possible for the Chapter House model to reduce GW sales.

They are jazzercising GW's muscles.

Selling autoparts for a living I simply take it as a given that third party parts and accessories are a boon to the company that manufactures the original product. Anyone here who owned a Daewoo can tell you what a pain it is to have a car with third party parts not accessible.

I personally love all the new bits and parts companies springing up. I love making my armies unique and one of a kind. When FW started up I heavily invested in their models as this is what it gave me. Now, FW are a mainstream source of models and add ons.

So I turn to Kromlech, Puppetwars, Maxmini, Armorcast, (the list could go on) to produce my parts that give my models a unique look. I want my stuff to stand out and be different. Check out my thread here on my Kommand Orks and you'll see what I mean.....

http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/449804.page

If GW stubbornly doesn't provide essential (or demanded) parts for their own game (e.g. Tervigon for 2 years) and someone else provides those parts, does he harm the gamer or rather help him?

What is harming GW's revenue more:
1.) Chaperhouse selling extra shoulder pads and a Storm Raven conversion kit (all urging you to buy GW products) or
2.) GW's yearly price hikes, absence of introductory games, no advertising policy?

These companies are parasites. In that they require their host (free market money, not GW) to survive. I say that because if the market suddenly demanded aftermarket kits for Privateer or infinity thats where these companies would go. They dont NEED GW to survive, they NEED the free market. In the same vein "parasite" could be applied to GW itself. GW parasites my money like nobodies business not to mention them parasiting Tolkien and Heinlein and Comic Books. Everything they produce is derivative and thus "parasitic". Those barracking to get rid of the third party bits manufacturers should also be trying to remove GW.

(parasiting someone elses post here ) If on the free market you create a demand, and then do not supply that demand, someone else will. Simply ignoring or trying to sue the free market doesnt work. And with the advent of the internet it is easier than ever before for small companies to find an audience.

As far as i am concerned, i hope someone is able to challenge GW on their turf. Literally recreating every army they do JUST different enough to avoid a lawsuit to force GW to compete on price and quality or go bust. In fact i dont think Mantic has gone anywhere near far enough.

Ouze wrote:so, Panic posted something in a different thread that I thought might make for an interesting discussion; but would be OT in the one it was posted in. So, forking over to here:

Panic wrote:It also removes the need for third party ripoffs of things like Tervigons and Tomb blades. IMO these parasite companies are tarnishing the hobby, so I'm glad GW are taking steps to take the wind from their sails.

Panic...

I've seen other users post similar sentiments previously. So, what do you guys think - Stormraven extensions, Razorback tops, Carnifex-to-Tervigon kits - are the makers of these kits parasites, feeding off of GWS's successes?

Well if you assume none of them provide the "community" with anything of worth I suppose you could make the argument they are parasites. Not sure why people get so bent about third party add on kits and bits. If you think they are substandard just don't buy them

But it seems a lot of people do find they make things of worth that enhance their enjoyment of their hobby. Doesn't seem like a parasitic relationship to me.

Buttons wrote:

Frazzled wrote:
You're an old fart too HBMC. Do you remember back when GW had its own bits service, if there were bits manufacturers at that time? I'd proffer GW created their own monster when they ended that service. It left a big void that needed filling.

GW used to have a bitz service? Why did they get rid of it?

Kilkrazy wrote:GW don't make any female Farseer models.

Thus it isn't possible for the Chapter House model to reduce GW sales.

Not true at all. You're making two incorrect assumptions. A) that without the option for a female farseer, people wouldn't but a male one, and B) the aesthetics of the model significantly trumps its value in the game. I'm willing to bet that plenty of people probably bought the male farseer model, even if they secretly wanted a female one, and that plenty of people bought a farseer because they needed it for their army, even if it wasn't the sex they wanted. (And as an aside, all the GW farseers I've seen are wearing robes and masks, so for all I know, the GW ones are female, they just don't have DD tits.)

Now that Chapterhouse is producing a female one, those people won't buy the GW model, they'll buy the chapterhouse one. And maybe that serves GW right for not making more female models. But Chapterhouse, in that case, is acting as a parasite. They didn't work on the IP, or the design of the farseer, they simply made an alternative model in order to profit from GWs design work.

Redbeard wrote:

Kilkrazy wrote:GW don't make any female Farseer models.

Thus it isn't possible for the Chapter House model to reduce GW sales.

Not true at all. You're making two incorrect assumptions. A) that without the option for a female farseer, people wouldn't but a male one, and B) the aesthetics of the model significantly trumps its value in the game. I'm willing to bet that plenty of people probably bought the male farseer model, even if they secretly wanted a female one, and that plenty of people bought a farseer because they needed it for their army, even if it wasn't the sex they wanted. (And as an aside, all the GW farseers I've seen are wearing robes and masks, so for all I know, the GW ones are female, they just don't have DD tits.)

Now that Chapterhouse is producing a female one, those people won't buy the GW model, they'll buy the chapterhouse one. And maybe that serves GW right for not making more female models. But Chapterhouse, in that case, is acting as a parasite. They didn't work on the IP, or the design of the farseer, they simply made an alternative model in order to profit from GWs design work.

Really, did you just really write this post? So I want a female farseer which people have been asking/bitching for since 2ne ed 40k, GW for what ever reason decides the demand isn't there (same with female guard) so decides not to make the model. A company fills the gap but you still say it's stealing a sale from GW?

Hi Welcome

http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=Hi%20Welcome

Are third party makers parasites? probably are as they are clear about what the product will most likely be used or substituted for.

Do I care? Not remotely, as I am not a GW shareholder.

I have bought numerous products (actually quite a lot) from Kromlech, Puppets War and Chapter House for the simple reason that their products are good.

If a company puts out something that I consider better or like the look of for my army I'm going to buy it. So simple really.

Its a free market and I spend my money on who put out the best ........ The winner get my money.

Its up to the Law to decide if it is right or wrong and then act on it.

Yeah, they're parasites, in the sense that their business feeds off GW's.

However, when GW cut the bitz service (DEAR SWEET MERCIFUL LORD, HOW I MISS THE BITZ SERVICE) the (potentially unforseen) consequence was the creation of companies like Chapterhouse, who fill a niche that GW simply does not offer anymore.

Honestly, a lot of GW's problems arise from their own decisions. Sales wouldn't be down if GW was more active on the internet and attempted to keep prices at a tolerable level, rather than sacrifice number of sales for profit per sale. Additionally, companies like Chapterhouse and others wouldn't have so much business if GW espoused more conversions (like they did in the old days) and offered a geniune bitz service, as compared to the horrid thing they have in place now.

FabricatorGeneralMike wrote:
Really, did you just really write this post? So I want a female farseer which people have been asking/bitching for since 2ne ed 40k, GW for what ever reason decides the demand isn't there (same with female guard) so decides not to make the model.

A very small, tiny minority of people have asked for a model since 2nd ed. That doesn't mean that there is sufficient demand to justify making the model for a large company. I can easily see that decision.

A company fills the gap but you still say it's stealing a sale from GW?

Yes, and if you actually spent the time to read my post instead of simply attempting to look witty by using outdated internet memes to respond, you'd understand why.

First, it's not their gap to fill. Second, GW is going to sell X many farseers. Doesn't matter if they're male or female or eunuch. There's some demand for farseers out there, and it's not substantially altered by whether they're male or female, the primary influence on demand is how good they are in the game. If some other company takes some of those farseer sales, then yes, they're essentially stealing from GW. They didn't develop the IP. They didn't design the distinctive farseer look, with the rune armour chestplate or the high eldar helmet. And whether GW made that specific sculpt that chapterhouse is selling is largely irrelevant.

http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=Hi%20Welcome

I'm so proud of you, you figured out how to link a url all on your own. You must feel very clever.

Redbeard wrote:

http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=Hi%20Welcome

I'm so proud of you, you figured out how to link a url all on your own. You must feel very clever.

Little victory's my friend, it is all about the little victory's. And again Hi Welcome.

no, not parasites. They are companies making their living off of providing stuff GW doesn't. That being said, they are making their living via the IP of GW....so I would call them all "Vanilla Ices". Not the original deal, but scratching out a living on the ideas of others.

On that note, FLGS are like record stores....going to a GW store is like buying merchandise at a concert. FLGS make their money by buying and reselling GW stuff, GW makes and creates it and you kind of consider shopping there like "supporting the band"...but they charge you a premium.

There are alot of people making a living off of GW, would be nice if they all showed some respect...like not selling things until a launch date, or in the case of Bitz guys...maybe paying a royalty...but I digress

Ouze, this thread needs a poll.

We can do without the digs and insults thanks.

warboss wrote:Ouze, this thread needs a poll.

What options? Presuming we're talking about how they interface with GWS -

1.) Yes, they steal sales from GWS
2.) No, they enhance them by requiring a base GWS kit.

I feel like there could be 3 or 4 more options there.

deggreg@yahoo.com wrote:no, not parasites. They are companies making their living off of providing stuff GW doesn't. That being said, they are making their living via the IP of GW....so I would call them all "Vanilla Ices". Not the original deal, but scratching out a living on the ideas of others.

I was under the impression that Vanilla Ice was back with a brand new invention.

deggreg@yahoo.com wrote:There are alot of people making a living off of GW, would be nice if they all showed some respect...like not selling things until a launch date, or in the case of Bitz guys...maybe paying a royalty...but I digress

I can't imagine why they should, or would. GW doesn't own the IP that these guys are selling. Ford can't control who makes windshield wipers or hubcaps, and I think that's a good thing.

Ouze wrote:

warboss wrote:Ouze, this thread needs a poll.

What options? Presuming we're talking about how they interface with GWS -

1.) Yes, they steal sales from GWS
2.) No, they enhance them by requiring a base GWS kit.

I feel like there could be 3 or 4 more options there.

I'm a fan of one very pro, one mildly pro, one neutral, one mildly con, and one very con choice in polls. 3P bits makers are good for the community and GW sales, 3P bits makers are good for the community but only occasionally benefit GW, 3P bits makers have no real effect on either the community or GW, 3P bits occasionally decrease GW sales depending on their type, 3P bits makers decrease the creativity of the community and negatively impact GW sales.

biccat wrote:

deggreg@yahoo.com wrote:no, not parasites. They are companies making their living off of providing stuff GW doesn't. That being said, they are making their living via the IP of GW....so I would call them all "Vanilla Ices". Not the original deal, but scratching out a living on the ideas of others.

I was under the impression that Vanilla Ice was back with a brand new invention.

Why do I suddenly have the urge to model my land speeder with the rag top down so my Blood Angel's hair can blow?

They are in no way parasites. 3rd party makers of figures, accessories and especially conversion parts have been an accepted part of the modeling hobby for decades.

Folks were making "Garage Kit" models of established sci-fi subjects and resin mod kits for tank models for decades before 40k even existed, to name just a couple of examples.

Arguments such as "they're taking the hard work of GW and..." hold no water for me either, GW appropriated bits of Heinlinen, Geiger, Anime, Tolkein and a host of other entities in the same blatantly-derivative-but-not-copyright-infringing way and I don't hold it against them.

IcyCool wrote:

Hulksmash wrote:Think of Warmahordes (the closest thing GW currently has to a real competitor). How many people convert models for their armies? How many 3rd party bitz are made for Warmachine or Hordes? "Unique" armies don't really exist there from what I've seen at events and game nights.

I've seen a rare few conversions, but in all honesty I think this has more to do with market share. If the other companies were bigger in the industry, they'd draw their fair share of the 3rd party imitators.

I want to dispute a couple of things with this. First, I don't think it has anything to do with market share. I think there simply isn't a niche needing to be filled with Warmachine. When PP releases something, it doesn't come with a missing option you need to make yourself (I won't make a list of all the GW stuff you have to scratchbuild/kitbash, but the number is significant), it comes with ALL the options for that model. They also don't tend to let product lines sit with gaps/without support for years (support meaning attention that isn't a price jump). If something makes it into one of their books, you can almost bet you'll see a model of it within the next 12-18 months, usually more on the 12 side, 'cept Destors those were a long time coming I'm told. The third party market, if it can be considered some sort of problem for GW, is one entirely of their own making.

warboss wrote:[Why do I suddenly have the urge to model my land speeder with the rag top down so my Blood Angel's hair can blow?

Don't forget to add in some Necrons on standby, waiting just to say hi.

warboss wrote:Ouze, this thread needs a poll.

AND LO, IT IS SO

I used Tervigons as an example of when there was no GWS official model for a long time. I'm aware you can now buy a GWS Terivgon. They seemed like the best example though.

No option for "I buy mod kits, but not entire models".

Ok, I added that in 2 options.

Guys this thread is making me sick. I think of all the great stuff Chapter house and Krom is comming out with and newing companys like Anvil industries and I just can't associate their work with being "parasites". I never even thought of those companys like that, the only thoughts I had of those companys were "Hey that kit\bit is pretty darn cool and I think I'll take 5.".
So what is so wrong with makeing a great product?