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so, Panic posted something in a different thread that I thought might make for an interesting discussion; but would be OT in the one it was posted in. So, forking over to here:

Panic wrote:It also removes the need for third party ripoffs of things like Tervigons and Tomb blades. IMO these parasite companies are tarnishing the hobby, so I'm glad GW are taking steps to take the wind from their sails.

Panic...

I've seen other users post similar sentiments previously. So, what do you guys think - Stormraven extensions, Razorback tops, Carnifex-to-Tervigon kits - are the makers of these kits parasites, feeding off of GWS's successes?

Aye was following that discussion myself. I'd say no, as it says there its healthy competition, and choice of modeling. We dont JUST use GW products for GW games, same with any hobby with models and someone you know hosts a homebrew game of something (Cowboys Dinosaurs, Warbands, things like that). Plus even with the regular GW games, it helps if you dont like a certain model but you're not confident converting right off the bat. Dont like that tank turret? Use an alternative. Dont like this model range? use something else. As was said its not like GW is the only hobby company dealing with sci-fi and fantasy, and in business like this there is no such thing as plagerism, just careful hiding of sources and borrowing.

Of course they're parasites. That doesn't mean we can't enjoy their products.

While I may not like every third party kit or bit out there, I love that they exist. Customers in this hobby never suffer from having too many choices(except maybe that we don't always have money for every model we want).

Fantasy parts from third parties are a bit rarer, which is unfortunate.
But look at Chapterhouse. Stormraven kit? To me it is mandatory for the model as it completely improves the design and scale. I also love their Rhino chassis parts like the alternate front armor panels and armor kits. And now they are doing true scale pieces for those who are so inclined.

They are filling a gap in the market. There will never be too many choices when it comes to customizing an army.

For the record, I also consider Forgeworld a third party as they sell(for the most part) pieces that are meant to work alongside a specific plastic kit. Some FW models are stand alones. But I look at them and see that they are filling gaps in the market, and in some cases(DkoK and what not) they are creating new markets without stepping on the toes of the parent company.

We as consumers only benefit from a competitive market where the rule of cool reigns supreme.

Now if only Warhammer Forge released new models faster...

A parasite may feed off a host, but that host still needs to eat to sustain the parasite. GW makes money for every Storm Raven kit that CHS sells.

God damn Toyota, Nissan and Ferrari for parasitically leeching from Ford...

Consider some of the Forge World pieces, I know they're "offical" but they're still just add-on bits and extras. None of them are essential, they're alternatives.

I don't think these companies are parasites at all, they cater to the same market, whilst still standing slightly apart. They're add-on bits. GW is still getting their money from the kits they can be used with, some people just like their models to stand out, yet don't have the skill/time/patience to sculpt details on every shoulder pad, make the Storm Raven look less like a brick or make a Carnifex into a Tervigon. That's why these companies exist.

To use an example of my own Guard - I have backpacks and brass-etch from Secret Weapon, heads from West Wind, tank stowage from Tamiya and other companies, Forge World vehicles, weapons and brass-etch. Quite a mix, but I use the humble plastic Cadian as a base, bought from GW. I don't "need" any of those other bits, I could have a perfectly serviceable Guard army using the Cadians with no add-ons at all. But I want them to look different, and so I splashed out to all these other companies, got extra bits and made them "mine"

Parasitism is a valid survival strategy in a capitalist marketplace. And really, GW doesn't deserve our money or adoration by some divine mandate, they need to earn it. If someone making shoulder pads and !marines is what it takes, then by jingo, that's what needs to happen.

Well then, maybe the question should be have a codicil. If they are parasites, is this an undesirable thing?

Ouze wrote:so, Panic posted something in a different thread that I thought might make for an interesting discussion; but would be OT in the one it was posted in. So, forking over to here:

Panic wrote:It also removes the need for third party ripoffs of things like Tervigons and Tomb blades. IMO these parasite companies are tarnishing the hobby, so I'm glad GW are taking steps to take the wind from their sails.

Panic...

I've seen other users post similar sentiments previously. So, what do you guys think - Stormraven extensions, Razorback tops, Carnifex-to-Tervigon kits - are the makers of these kits parasites, feeding off of GWS's successes?

They aren't parasites, at most they are symbiotic organisms.

Sure they need GW to survive, but since their kits are "upgrades", they actually help GW sell more of their own products as well.

Charax wrote:God damn Toyota, Nissan and Ferrari for parasitically leeching from Ford...

Indeed.

How dare someone not use the official Toyota Genuine Parts when replacing their wiper blades.. the nerve of some people!

GW needs to learn to embrace the aftermarket parts and kits schtick. Model kit companies don't thrown a hissy bitch fit over other companies producing etched brass upgrades or resin replacement parts, some of them even encourage it.

FW is trying to fill this niche for GW, it wouldn't be such a big if their casts weren't so miss and hit all the time for the prices they're asking.

1.) Are we humans parasiting the success, sunlight using and oxygen producing plants have?
2.) Are second market products per se immoral?
3.) Is a higher diversity of products bad for gamers?
4.) Does GW have the copyright on anything mankind ever imagined?

Charax wrote:God damn Toyota, Nissan and Ferrari for parasitically leeching from Ford...

Actually, Henry Ford was parasiting Gottlieb Daimler

Strictly speaking, yes.
If GW didn't make the kits there would be nothing for them to make bits for.

Not necessarily a bad thing though.

PhantomViper wrote:They aren't parasites, at most they are symbiotic organisms.

You're stretching the definition of symbotic a bit, PhantomViper.

Yes. But there's nothing wrong with that.

In the most extreme technical sense, yes they are parasites. They need the host to make their products, but the host does not need them. It's not symbiosis.

Unfortunately, when someone calls Kromlech or Puppets War or ChapterHouse a parasite they don't do it to describe the methods they've they've chosen to do business. No, they do it as a form of pejorative with a heavy 'moral' bent to it. They're not a parasite because of their business model, they're a parasite because they're evil/wrong/thieves/etc..

Nope no problem here with 3rd party makers. Just never seem to find bitz/parts that I want to order ... and those I do I rarely have the money to ever afford them at the time.

Mainly shoulderpads ... I would love 10 of 1 design ... not 10 of 5 or 6 random designs.

I don't see how they could be considered parasites. These addon kits don't detract from GW profits, but could be considered to even encourage them. Since a parasite by definition "feeds" off it's host entity, they aren't parasites. Symbiotic, maybe.

H.B.M.C. wrote:In the most extreme technical sense, yes they are parasites. They need the host to make their products, but the host does not need them. It's not symbiosis.

Unfortunately, when someone calls Kromlech or Puppets War or ChapterHouse a parasite they don't do it to describe the methods they've they've chosen to do business. No, they do it as a form of pejorative with a heavy 'moral' bent to it. They're not a parasite because of their business model, they're a parasite because they're evil/wrong/thieves/etc..

I agree. With this statement

In fact I think a better term for this relationship is Commensalism (from biology)

Commensalism benefits one organism and the other organism is neither benefited nor harmed. It occurs when one organism takes benefits by interacting with another organism by which the host organism is not affected. A good example is a remora living with a shark. Remoras eat leftover food from the shark. The shark is not affected in the process as remoras eat only leftover food of the shark which doesn't deplete the shark's resources.

Bitz seller wise, they are benefiting from GW while in the grand scheme of things GW is not harmed nor better off

H.B.M.C. wrote:In the most extreme technical sense, yes they are parasites. They need the host to make their products, but the host does not need them. It's not symbiosis.

Is that always the case though? For example, someone might want to make a 'Pre-heresy' army, and need bits from a 3rd party supplier (for example, the Cataphract terminator shoulder pads from Maxmini). But to use those pieces it is essential to buy the official GW terminator set. What if the person would not want to buy any of it if the 3rd party component did not exist?

Similarly, several people have commented that they only bought the Storm Raven because of the Chapter House kit.

I had a project planned for some true-scale marines, but it has been put on hold because WarSmith miniatures was given a C&D order. So now, those tactical marines I would have had to buy to make the conversion will remain on the shelf.

I would argue that the 'host organism' (in this case GW) benefits from this relationship. Admittedly it will only be in a very small percentage of cases in the grand scheme of total sales, but I think the fact that most 3rd party bits producers design kits to work alongside a GW product, rather than as something standalone which directly competes with GWs product, makes it more symbiotic than parasitical.

Panic wrote:
It also removes the need for third party ripoffs of things like Tervigons and Tomb blades. IMO these parasite companies are tarnishing the hobby, so I'm glad GW are taking steps to take the wind from their sails.

I really, really can't understand this viewpoint. If anything, those Chapterhouse kits for the unreleased tyranids (again, which required a GW kit) prompted more people to start that army than might have done otherwise. Especially for those players who didn't want to convert their own, not knowing whether or not an official model was coming for one of the most evocative options in the army list might have been a major turn-off.

GW's legal team is trying to crush those companies because of copyright considerations, nothing more, or more accurately for that legal team to justify its existence and the costs it must incur.

I wouldn't say they are parasites. They don't really take anything away from a host. More like Barnacles. They just pop up because there is somewhere for them to live.

I think shows GW's success at creating a 'GW first, GW only' mindset in the people who play their games when 3rd party manufacturers can be 'parasites' and that their downfall can only be a good thing for the 'Hobby.' *hocchhh ptooey*

Pacific wrote:Similarly, several people have commented that they only bought the Storm Raven because of the Chapter House kit.

This means little when calling Chapterhouse the parasite due to the fact that conversion kit wouldn't have existed without the GW model. Since it's a conversion kit.

My only real issue is when they use the GW names, like chapterhouse did with the Tervigon, and planned to do with the Doom of Malantai. Call it an alien baby factory, call it a floating alien super brain. Call it a Tervigon conversion kit or a Doom of Malantai, and you're banking on it sounding like the official product and being misleading.

Talarn Blackshard wrote:Mainly shoulderpads ... I would love 10 of 1 design ... not 10 of 5 or 6 random designs.

This is, frankly, my biggest complaint with Games Workshop. It's nice that you get lots of options, but to give you lots of options they mix up the unit significantly.

I've been putting together a unit of Chaos Knights recently. I know they're Chaos, but why can't I have 5 similar shields to indicate a unit? Or why not 5 axes, swords, or maces? Why do I have to use 2 axes and 3 swords if I want bladed weapons? And if I want to have all of my horses to have the same style of barding I need to buy 5 boxes...and have 5 identically posed horses.

To the OP: No, the bits companies aren't parasites. They provide a valuable service separate from Games Workshop's products. They don't provide products at Games Workshop's expense, they provide products that enhance the value of Games Workshop's products.

Recasting companies are parasites because a sale from the recaster is a lost sale to GW.

I call it symbiotic as well.. take the carnifex to tervigon kit... people wanted tervigons... gw did NOT make a tervigon kit when the codex came in, so the bitz makers make a kit to convert one into the other... still requires a gw kit, so it is symbiotic in that they wouldn't have sold as many carnifex kits if the bit makers hadn't made the kit.

also look at warlock councel on jet bikes... only way to get them for my eldar was get some gw bikes and then get the bitz kits to convert ... i could i supposed try and snip bitz off a warlock but then the bike would look the same.

bit makers enhance models as long as they are making accessories and not actual models... though admitadly i'd love to buy full models from 3rd parties over gw if they were cheaper

Ouze wrote:so, Panic posted something in a different thread that I thought might make for an interesting discussion; but would be OT in the one it was posted in. So, forking over to here:

Panic wrote:It also removes the need for third party ripoffs of things like Tervigons and Tomb blades. IMO these parasite companies are tarnishing the hobby, so I'm glad GW are taking steps to take the wind from their sails.

Panic...

I've seen other users post similar sentiments previously. So, what do you guys think - Stormraven extensions, Razorback tops, Carnifex-to-Tervigon kits - are the makers of these kits parasites, feeding off of GWS's successes?

Thats nonsense. non EOM aftermarket products are a staple for other industries. Two specifically which are blow GW out of the water (oine literally) in terms of cost to play in are automobiles and firearms.

Automobiles are rife with aftermarket kits for performance enhancements, different seats and materials, and audio upgrades. Indeed. It wasn't until the mid 1980s that I ever saw a car that actually had the original own radio in it. On our Volvo 1800ES I had competition Weber carburetors, racing tires/wheels, and a badass Sony HIFI and speakers. I miss that car.
Bikes are the same. Frazzled Sr. one of the original road racers, drilled holes in the frame of his bike to lose weight on it and had mom sew special scuff pads on his trousers (they were just inventing the lean into it method of turning).

The US civilian pistol market is awash in aftermarket crap. There is an entire cottage industry for aftermarket parts and entire 1911 lines with the thought that you will acquire a base 1911 (.45 ACP for you girly men) frame and basically build it up from there with competition hammer, trigger, assembly, special super heavy competition guiderod, throated and polished (sperate process) competition barrel, competition grips, aftermarket springs tailored to your pistol/trigger pull/weight of the bullet you're throwing, competition sights of your personal flavor, maybe even work on the slide itself or some sort of specialized coating. Don't even get me started on handloading your own cartridges...


Automatically Appended Next Post:

H.B.M.C. wrote:In the most extreme technical sense, yes they are parasites. They need the host to make their products, but the host does not need them. It's not symbiosis.

Unfortunately, when someone calls Kromlech or Puppets War or ChapterHouse a parasite they don't do it to describe the methods they've they've chosen to do business. No, they do it as a form of pejorative with a heavy 'moral' bent to it. They're not a parasite because of their business model, they're a parasite because they're evil/wrong/thieves/etc..

You're an old fart too HBMC. Do you remember back when GW had its own bits service, if there were bits manufacturers at that time? I'd proffer GW created their own monster when they ended that service. It left a big void that needed filling.

lord_blackfang wrote:Of course they're parasites. That doesn't mean we can't enjoy their products.

Pretty much this. They are in fact benefiting because GW is big, but it doesn't mean that they aren't offering a nice product.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Frazzled wrote:
You're an old fart too HBMC. Do you remember back when GW had its own bits service, if there were bits manufacturers at that time? I'd proffer GW created their own monster when they ended that service. It left a big void that needed filling.

GW used to have a bitz service? Why did they get rid of it?

I think a lot of these third party companies are making money from GW's hard work. GW develops a concept art and these guys put a spin on it.

But I also think GW is taking the wrong approach at viewing these guys as competition. GW is making only so many bits to go with each army. In a standard Orc army you have 100 models and a choice of maybe 12-15 heads to choose from. So what if independent companies are making more heads, it gives armies more variety and actually makes their (GW) product look better.

I think if GW took an approach that was more "open source" like a lot of the computer and gaming industry, they'd have less headaches, and not always look like the evil empire.

Who's to say GW can't look at an independent's product and put a spin on it too? Maybe they should use those independent companies to answer the question "Our product isnt selling, that product is. How do we fix that and make it better?"

Buttons wrote:

lord_blackfang wrote:Of course they're parasites. That doesn't mean we can't enjoy their products.

Pretty much this. They are in fact benefiting because GW is big, but it doesn't mean that they aren't offering a nice product.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Frazzled wrote:
You're an old fart too HBMC. Do you remember back when GW had its own bits service, if there were bits manufacturers at that time? I'd proffer GW created their own monster when they ended that service. It left a big void that needed filling.

GW used to have a bitz service? Why did they get rid of it?

If i remember they ditched the service because (paraphrasing my local store, i didnt know they stopped it till a few months back) "The cost of maufacturing the individual sprue bitz was losing more money than they made selling the specific parts people needed"

doc1234 wrote:

Buttons wrote:

lord_blackfang wrote:Of course they're parasites. That doesn't mean we can't enjoy their products.

Pretty much this. They are in fact benefiting because GW is big, but it doesn't mean that they aren't offering a nice product.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Frazzled wrote:
You're an old fart too HBMC. Do you remember back when GW had its own bits service, if there were bits manufacturers at that time? I'd proffer GW created their own monster when they ended that service. It left a big void that needed filling.

GW used to have a bitz service? Why did they get rid of it?

If i remember they ditched the service because (paraphrasing my local store, i didnt know they stopped it till a few months back) "The cost of maufacturing the individual sprue bitz was losing more money than they made selling the specific parts people needed"

Indeed they had a service. I bought a freight train of power weapons, plasma weapons etc. that way. I think they just got greedy, trying to get you to buy entire kits.