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 Tomb King wrote:

 jy2 wrote:

That likes like a darn fun deathstar to play. They don't really have good resiliency. However, they've got the hitting power. Rage gives them +2A on the charge and Lemartes lets them re-roll all hits and all wounds. They've also got some mobility. Ok, 2 out of 3. I'll put them in my Deathstars Under Consideration list.

For sure. Speak for yourself on the resiliency. They are T4 plague marines that hit like a truck. You can also trade the infernus pistols for plasma but the infernus dont overheat and help against MW models. Just from the 5 PF alone that is 20 Re-roll to hits and wounds. Enough to kill off the paladin squad easily.

Ok, TK, this is for you.


Bonus Deathmatch #2

This is what I would call the "warmup" game before the match between the Draigowing and Tau.


1000 Draigowing Grey Knights

I actually revised my Draigowing deathstar list. Now it doesn't even have Draigo at all. Instead. I swapped him and some paladin wargear for Coteaz and a Grandmaster.


Coteaz - Prescience, Foreboding
Grandmaster - Psycannon, Psykatroke Grenades, Nemesis Force Sword (Warlord)

10x Paladins - 4x (2x Master-crafted) Psycannons, 3x Hammers, Brotherhood Banner

1000

Warlord Trait: Useless

Grand Strategy: Re-roll 1's to Wound



1000 Bad Company Blood Angels (by Tomb King)

Lemartes, Guardian of the Lost
4x Death Company - Jump Packs, Infernus Pistols
5x Death Company - Jump Packs, Power Fists
10x Death Company - Jump Packs

1000


Battle report coming up tomorrow morning on p.5.





Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Shandara wrote:
And denying on a 4+ vs the horrors, it's going to hurt.

That's 5+ Deny. All my Tzeentch psykers are Lvl 3.

nvm, they deny on the highest psyker in the unit.

Ive got my money and my house on draigowing winning this one, 20 psycannon shots with re-rolls, If you play it smart should try and get 2 turns of shooting in, would be enough to kill of a good chunk of death company.

Then with forboding, and re-rolls, even more will be killed of on overwatch. When it gets to combat would be close but now with activated force weapons to ignore fnp and hitting before or the same time, and again with re-rolls from prescience to hit, and the re-rolls of 1 to wound.

Just wondering jy2, why mc some psycannons if they will have re-rolls from prescience anyway?

If you could have rad grenades instead, make the DC T3, then cast hammer hand to wound on 2's with all the regular attacks, re-rolling to hit (prescience) and wounding on 2's with re-rolls (grand stratagy) would be very killy.

GK vs Tau should be all about deepstriking imo.

You dont ever walk up the pallie star towards the tau, you euther deepstrike it all within 12 of the tau and shoot half dead or you mishap and loose the game.
Also, where is the apotechary to help save against all the plasma?


Why no librarian in the pallie star?
Sanctuary, shrouding, even vortex and excommunication would do good vs clustered tau or deamons in cc.

Bonus Deathmatch #2 completed on p. 5.

 tuiman wrote:
Ive got my money and my house on draigowing winning this one, 20 psycannon shots with re-rolls, If you play it smart should try and get 2 turns of shooting in, would be enough to kill of a good chunk of death company.

Then with forboding, and re-rolls, even more will be killed of on overwatch. When it gets to combat would be close but now with activated force weapons to ignore fnp and hitting before or the same time, and again with re-rolls from prescience to hit, and the re-rolls of 1 to wound.

Just wondering jy2, why mc some psycannons if they will have re-rolls from prescience anyway?

If you could have rad grenades instead, make the DC T3, then cast hammer hand to wound on 2's with all the regular attacks, re-rolling to hit (prescience) and wounding on 2's with re-rolls (grand stratagy) would be very killy.

The Master-craft upgrades are only point-fillers. I couldn't think of what else to get with only 10-pts left...perhaps servo-skulls? Rad grenades are 15-pts....couldn't afford them.

 Pyriel- wrote:
GK vs Tau should be all about deepstriking imo.

You dont ever walk up the pallie star towards the tau, you euther deepstrike it all within 12 of the tau and shoot half dead or you mishap and loose the game.
Also, where is the apotechary to help save against all the plasma?


Why no librarian in the pallie star?
Sanctuary, shrouding, even vortex and excommunication would do good vs clustered tau or deamons in cc.

Cannot deepstrike unless they arrive on Turn 1 (or leave 1 model deployed and hiding). Otherwise, they are tabled if they don't have a model on the board at the end of the game turn.

Can't afford apothecaries and librarians. Only had 1000-pts to work with. Coteaz is a much better bargain if points is a limitation. I decided to opt for more offense (shooting and psychic powers) than defense (apothecary). Grand Strategy from the Grandmaster is also nice, giving the paladins some extra movement and making their offense more effective (re-roll 1's or counter-attack).

jy2 - I can beat any DS you throw out there. Look how bad your deamons did. The DS is passe.

 Dozer Blades wrote:
jy2 - I can beat any DS you throw out there. Look how bad your deamons did. The DS is passe.

I don't doubt it. I can probably beat almost any DS out there as well. Army versus army is a whole different ballgame compared to deathstar vs deathstar.

DS vs DS is more like gladiator combat for some spectator fun. Army vs army is a battle where Tactics, synergy between units and teamwork play a much more important role.

But armies with deathstars or mini-deathstars (which is probably actually better than a true deathstar in actual games) can be good enough to give even the best, balanced armies out there higly competitive games.

 Dozer Blades wrote:
jy2 - I can beat any DS you throw out there. Look how bad your deamons did. The DS is passe.

What exactly are you trying to prove Dozer Blades? That you know how to beat a deathstar? fething wow.

This is a thread about death-star on death-star action, not MY DEATHSTAR WINS ALL TOURNAMENTS AND 40K AND THE UNIVERSE! If you don't want to read it, go somewhere else, and leave the rest of us to enjoy the silliness.

Relax.

I mean, all you've contributed so far is that Deathstars are bad, despite plenty of evidence to the contrary. No one's forcing you to read the thread.

No worries Dozer, at least not for me.

Thanks jy2. You know I am a fan. : )

 jy2 wrote:

That's 5+ Deny. All my Tzeentch psykers are Lvl 3.

The squad is mastery level 1 though so they can be denied on 4 plus

Ok, getting to some of the rules issues here. There were a number of rules debates and I didn't respond to them first because I wanted to take the time to research them myself. So now to address some of those issues.

skyfi wrote:
Jy2 check pg 38 jink, no 3+ cover for nob bikers. 4+ when turbo boost now but they always get 4+ from exhaust fumes. Not huge but wanted you to know so #s aren't skewed.

They lost 3+ when 6th dropped

You are right. I missed that. Thanks.

skyfi wrote:
You can't deffrolla and fire normally with skorchas? I think its snap shots only if you ram/tank shock.

You also can't assault after a ram or tank shock anymore, despite it being open topped. 6th was harsh on the BW..

I also believe the deffrolla hits do not ignore cover. I don't see anything (other than logic) to support this unless it was faq'd recently and I missed it.

Dakkamite that is a good build with grotsnik, and with zogwort being a warphead hes got 2 shots at getting the teleport spell for mobility right? MANz would have to have cybork or be scoring tho if ya grab ol zoggy (and with bs0 will he be allowed to do shooting psychic abilities at all0

Correct. Once a unit embarks/disembarks from a vehicle, it cannot tank shock or ram.

You can shoot as normal depending on your speed when you do a tank shock. However, you can only ever snap-fire when you do a ram.

You cannot assault on the turn you tank-shock because you cannot disembark after you tank-shock. And if you disembark before you tank shock, then you cannot tank shock at all.

You can use cover saves against the deff'rolla hits (from the Ork FAQ).

 felixcat wrote:
I know I'm entering this topic a little late but how did you infiltrate Farsight with Shadowsun ... this cannort be done. You could DS in turn two beside the deathstar but he cannot infiltrate with the group regardless of who is the warlord.

When we play the deathstar is it common to see Shadowsun infiltrating and the Farsight DSing with a riptide turn two with AGL/Comm help. Farsight can then either join the deathstar or stay put with the riptide.

According to consensus, you are correct. Most of the "rules" people believe that you cannot infiltrate an IC with the Infiltrate USR with a non-infiltrating unit because in order to infiltrate, the IC needs to join the unit before deployment. However, if you infiltrate him, you cannot deploy him yet, at least not until the rest of the army is deployed. The unit you want to infiltrate him with, however, needs to be deployed.

It is a somewhat asinine oversight by GW. This practically makes all infiltrating IC's unable to infiltrate with their units unless the unit has infiltrate as well. I doubt this is the RAI and think it needs a FAQ. Currently, infiltrate can only be used to ouflank with another unit.

BTW, here is a link to the rules debate on YMDC:

http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/523802.page

MarkyMark wrote:

 jy2 wrote:

That's 5+ Deny. All my Tzeentch psykers are Lvl 3.

The squad is mastery level 1 though so they can be denied on 4 plus

Good distinction.

It would be 5+ Deny against the Lvl 3 Tzeentch Heralds.

It would be 4+ Deny against the Lvl 1 pink horrors.

Thanks for pointing that out.

JY2!!! just read the whole thread and i really like this idea.

I also agree with your assessment that the Farsun star should win it all!!!

Furthermore, I am 100% in agreement with you that RAI shadowsun can infiltrate a unit but since it is up in the air I personally dont use it like that right now, even with the shrike faq correlation......

 jy2 wrote:

According to consensus, you are correct. Most of the "rules" people believe that you cannot infiltrate an IC with the Infiltrate USR with a non-infiltrating unit because in order to infiltrate, the IC needs to join the unit before deployment. However, if you infiltrate him, you cannot deploy him yet, at least not until the rest of the army is deployed. The unit you want to infiltrate him with, however, needs to be deployed.

It is a somewhat asinine oversight by GW. This practically makes all infiltrating IC's unable to infiltrate with their units unless the unit has infiltrate as well. I doubt this is the RAI and think it needs a FAQ. Currently, infiltrate can only be used to ouflank with another unit.

BTW, here is a link to the rules debate on YMDC:

http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/523802.page

Just to clarify - if a unit has Infiltrate (ie, the IC) you don't have a choice to deploy him with the rest of the army ever. He's either deployed at infiltrate time or held in reserves for Outflank.
This is what causes the issue really. In 5th they changed it so that ICs could join before deployment - and may well in 6th. It may be intended, however, for them to only be able to join a unit for Outflank.
It wouldn't bother me playing either way.

Theorius wrote:
JY2!!! just read the whole thread and i really like this idea.

I also agree with your assessment that the Farsun star should win it all!!!

Furthermore, I am 100% in agreement with you that RAI shadowsun can infiltrate a unit but since it is up in the air I personally dont use it like that right now, even with the shrike faq correlation......

Yeah, I'll let my opponent know. When rules are unclear, I usually go for the more conservative intepretation - or the one that gives the least advantage - unless I felt strongly that it was wrong.

In our 2 games, we were actually unaware of this infiltrating technicality so I was ok with him infiltrating his unit. Honestly, it wouldn't have made a difference to the outcome at all.

rigeld2 wrote:

Just to clarify - if a unit has Infiltrate (ie, the IC) you don't have a choice to deploy him with the rest of the army ever. He's either deployed at infiltrate time or held in reserves for Outflank.
This is what causes the issue really. In 5th they changed it so that ICs could join before deployment - and may well in 6th. It may be intended, however, for them to only be able to join a unit for Outflank.
It wouldn't bother me playing either way.

Thanks for the clarification. Always good to have a rules guru nearby.

 jy2 wrote:
Thanks for the clarification. Always good to have a rules guru nearby.

As long as someone doesn't take that as a negative connotation

I'm really a great guy to play with I just also happen to enjoy discussing rules.

I'd love to see the pinkstar vs a Dark harlestar. Can we get a look at that?

How much damage can they do to get past a 2+ re-rollable? Even when all there damage is done on 3d6 and DtW'ed on a 4+. The placement would be akin to this. K being karandras, V being vect, E being eldrad and SS being shadowdseer. First turn infaltrate into cover, wait out fire storm, next turn charge! You have to handle 1 turn of shooting on a 2+ re-rollable armour save of eternal warrior, with LoS onto vect AP 2. I also want to see if vect can handle the big bird, that would be an amazing fight.

K
H H V H H
H SS E H
H Tm H

what is the next face off?

i cant wait to see farsun star take on draigowing!!!!

rigeld2 wrote:

 jy2 wrote:
Thanks for the clarification. Always good to have a rules guru nearby.

As long as someone doesn't take that as a negative connotation

I'm really a great guy to play with I just also happen to enjoy discussing rules.

I mean it in the nicest way.

Rules Guru is good.

Rules lawyer is bad.

 ALEXisAWESOME wrote:
I'd love to see the pinkstar vs a Dark harlestar. Can we get a look at that?

How much damage can they do to get past a 2+ re-rollable? Even when all there damage is done on 3d6 and DtW'ed on a 4+. The placement would be akin to this. K being karandras, V being vect, E being eldrad and SS being shadowdseer. First turn infaltrate into cover, wait out fire storm, next turn charge! You have to handle 1 turn of shooting on a 2+ re-rollable armour save of eternal warrior, with LoS onto vect AP 2. I also want to see if vect can handle the big bird, that would be an amazing fight.

K
H H V H H
H SS E H
H Tm H

I'll try to set that game up. Frankie from Frontline Gaming runs the Harliestar. If he's available, I'll play him. Otherwise, I may have to proxy the Harliestar as I don't own eldar.

Theorius wrote:
what is the next face off?

i cant wait to see farsun star take on draigowing!!!!

Working on it right now. It should be done by tonight.

Paladinstar Grey Knights vs Farsight Tau

on p. 5.

I was surprised you charged with the draigowing tbh, I thought you would let them come to you considering you would get a free round of shooting from overwatch.

Good to see it worked out in the end though, What I love about draigowing is how much you can customize with halberds/swords/hammers, you can take enough of each to take down most threats.

Game #2 - Grey Knights vs Tau - completed on p. 5.

 tuiman wrote:
I was surprised you charged with the draigowing tbh, I thought you would let them come to you considering you would get a free round of shooting from overwatch.

Good to see it worked out in the end though, What I love about draigowing is how much you can customize with halberds/swords/hammers, you can take enough of each to take down most threats.

I didn't charge with my paladinstar. I just moved forwards and shot with them (killing 7). I then let the angels charge me next turn, killing another 6 from Overwatch.

These deathstar matchups are fun!

Coming up tomorrow....Game #3 - Paladinstar Grey Knights vs Pinkstar Daemons.


Then it's Farsight Tau vs Reader's Choice. Yes, I will let the readers pick the deathstar they think has the best chance against the Farsight-bomb (any deathstar other than the Seer council). My choice would be Nob bikers or Khorne-dog Daemons (you can find the lists on p.2 - Deathstars Under Consideration). So let me know which army you would like to see try to give Farsight his 1st loss.


Then on Thursday, it's the debut of the Seer Council, run by my friend Grant (aka SonsofGrant here on dakka).


Stay tuned....

For the GK vs Tau was there any kind of actual terrain other than the large block thing in the middle? Were those little slope hills area terrain or something? I just imagine if there was any kind of cover tau would have taken a lot less casualties. Also how big is your table? It looks very small.

Yeah, there was a lot of terrain. We were both just playing near the center away from all the other terrain. He was trying to get within 12" of me each turn in order to rapid-fire his plasmas. Then he would jump away and use the center terrain for 2+ cover. Yes, he was getting 2+ cover every single turn (with the exception of the few drones I could see) and yes, paladin shooting with Prescience is that good. It will make mince meat of even 2+ models over time (that's why a unit of paladin will consistently beat a unit of hamminators due to their shooting).

All the tables I was playing on are 6x4 standard tables. We just didn't use very much of it because there was no need.

Aret psycannons only 24" range? why even go into rapid fire until you whittle them down?

Did he need to rush forward to keep that mountain between you?

I think the paladins should have died more horribly personally, i dont know why his command suit could be in a position to die....it should go down last everytime, or did you get it with some trickery precision shots?


Glad to see they pulled it out though!!!!

I think i will come this thursday as well to see the seer vs farsun!!

As a longtime Tau player, I'm glad to see the Farsight deathstar doing so well, but I do have to make one comment. How was he insta-killing your paladins? Tau Missile Pods are only Str 7, and the Plasma Rifles are only Str 6. Did he swap out the plasma in the original list for Fusion Blasters? Otherwise those suits have no way to insta-gib your pallys.

Theorius wrote:
Aret psycannons only 24" range? why even go into rapid fire until you whittle them down?

Did he need to rush forward to keep that mountain between you?

I think the paladins should have died more horribly personally, i dont know why his command suit could be in a position to die....it should go down last everytime, or did you get it with some trickery precision shots?


Glad to see they pulled it out though!!!!

I think i will come this thursday as well to see the seer vs farsun!!

He under-estimated my range when he deployed. He probably also figured that he would be getting 2+ cover, but with my 6" Scout move and then 6" normal move, I was able to get into a position to shoot at most of his units without cover (though I did give a couple of his drones 2+ cover).

He wanted to move forwards to get into plasma double-tap range and then jump back behind cover. That was probably why he didn't deploy further away.

His Command Node suit was actually all the way in the back. Normally, I wouldn't be able to get to him. However, this time the terrain worked to my advantage. It blocked LOS to the other guys, meaning he couldn't allocate wounds to them. I could only see the left 3 suits (which had his important guys....lol) and therefore only those models could get killed. On the flip side, had I caused something like 40 wounds, the rest of the wounds would just get wasted after I killed all the guys I could see.

With 4++ Invuln's and 2W, I think the paladins should have survived much better. I shouldn't have lost 6 guys from 1 turn of shooting. That was just dumb luck on my part.

DMDaddy0 wrote:
As a longtime Tau player, I'm glad to see the Farsight deathstar doing so well, but I do have to make one comment. How was he insta-killing your paladins? Tau Missile Pods are only Str 7, and the Plasma Rifles are only Str 6. Did he swap out the plasma in the original list for Fusion Blasters? Otherwise those suits have no way to insta-gib your pallys.

Shadowsun with 2 fusion blasters. On Turn 1 where I lost 6 paladins, Shadowsun insta-gibbed 2 of them. The rest died from plasmas and possibly even missiles due to horrible saves on my part.