Gunmen take hostages in Sydney cafe. seige over, some injured amid fire fight as police go in.

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**Jihadin**

Well there was the matter of a possible (up to) four IED's around Sydney with possible two of them in there with him from what I heard. Someone also mention a Suicide Bomb Vest but from the video I did see of him. Also it dawned on me just now he was clean shaven and well groomed so he was prepared to go.

**Breotan**

One concern is that a suicide vest can be remote triggered even if the guy wearing it is dead. Police kill the terrorist then as they move in, a second guy triggers the bomb. Really serious stuff for them to have to deal with.

**Jihadin**

Breotan wrote:
One concern is that a suicide vest can be remote triggered even if the guy wearing it is dead. Police kill the terrorist then as they move in, a second guy triggers the bomb. Really serious stuff for them to have to deal with.

Mention earlier that there were no Dukes or Warlocks around the cafe being hostages were still linked in with WiFi.

**Firehead158**

Jihadin wrote:
Also it dawned on me just now he was clean shaven and well groomed so he was prepared to go.

Hard to tell, but also in the videos shown by the media through the window of the cafe, it looks like he was wearing those little black headbands with the white writing, indicating that he was ready to die. Hard to tell, but that is what it looked like.

**Jihadin**

Firehead158 wrote:
Jihadin wrote:
Also it dawned on me just now he was clean shaven and well groomed so he was prepared to go.

Hard to tell, but also in the videos shown by the media through the window of the cafe, it looks like he was wearing those little black headbands with the white writing, indicating that he was ready to die. Hard to tell, but that is what it looked like.

Takes about three days to prepare oneself to meet Allah. Perfumed, oiled, cleaned, and well groomed. Wonder if the hostages will sa how perfumed he was. Strong indicator of something out the ordinary

**Firehead158**

Jihadin wrote:
Firehead158 wrote:
Jihadin wrote:
Also it dawned on me just now he was clean shaven and well groomed so he was prepared to go.

Hard to tell, but also in the videos shown by the media through the window of the cafe, it looks like he was wearing those little black headbands with the white writing, indicating that he was ready to die. Hard to tell, but that is what it looked like.

Takes about three days to prepare oneself to meet Allah. Perfumed, oiled, cleaned, and well groomed. Wonder if the hostages will sa how perfumed he was. Strong indicator of something out the ordinary

I'm sure it'll take some time for the hostages to be debriefed before they let any of them talk to the media or anything. Good points as well.

On the topic of ECM:I really doubt the use of a chicken switch, considering what the media has released about the individual. I really wish we had gotten a view of the scene. AUS won't have DUKE, that is specific to us. They'll either have Warlock or MMBJ, which are approved to be released to NATO allies. I didn't see any vics, so it is all hearsay. Also, Live feed probably wouldn't have worked. I won't go too into detail, OPSEC and gak.

**Sigvatr**

mitch_rifle wrote:
Wish they executed this POS when it first started

In general, I agree - in any hostage situation, if able to do so without risking the life of any hostages, I am highly in favor of immediately shooting the target and ask questions later. If you're taking hostages, you forfeit your rights and are free to be killed. It most often is a very risky thing to do, however, and the shot itself is difficult as well.

**Medium of Death**

Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:
Medium of Death wrote:
Is Islam compatible with the West?

feth your question. Seriously, feth it. Not because of the reasons that were already mentioned, though, but because worse stuff happens pretty much every day in non-Western countries, and yet that never prompted you to ask yourself “Is Islam compatible with peace/humanity/whatever”. feth your question because it frames the world as the Western victims and the evil foreign all-Muslims aggressors, when really the first one to suffer from Islam live in countries with a Muslim majority. I have no problem with you criticizing Islam, hell I would likely be the first to agree, but building a narrative where the victims of Islam are poor westerners, or where what happens in non-Western countries is some non-relevant issue that we should not care about because they are strangers? I am going to get all angry on you.

Never ask that question again.

Not the world police.

I frame it as the "West" because that's from my experience of having grown up in a Western country. I could have framed it as, is Islam good for Britain and its commonwealth countries as I'd imagine a greater level of connection but I didn't.

Islam is an ideology that is firmly at odds with the west. It can never integrate, it only seeks to dominate. I'm not in the business of telling Muslims not to be Muslims, I just don't want it here. Britain has many other religious communities that have integrated and aren't free from criticism. Why is Islam given some kind of special pass?

I'll create a thread on this topic shortly.

**d-usa**

I look forward to the new thread repeating the same old ignorance and bigotry and resulting in the same lock as always.

**Sir Arun**

Question should be: is Islam compatible with modernity?

135 dead pakistani school children by taliban hands say no.

**the shrouded lord**

well this settles it, I'm no longer leaving my house with out my shark knife.

**Ensis Ferrae**

Sir Arun wrote:
Question should be: is Islam compatible with modernity?

135 dead pakistani school children by taliban hands say no.

Oddly, Afghanistan in the 1930s was more progressive than even the US. And if you look carefully, you can see this strain of being "ahead of the times" in many Islamic nations that are now viewed as being "backwards".

So, what happened? Well, among other things, you had the greatest military powers in the world dividing land up on a whim where and when it suited them, paying no regard to tribal/cultural ties or their rivalries. You had the rise of the Cold War, where the US and USSR waged proxy war on each other, creating and fueling groups that are now extremist in nature, etc.

I would honestly go so far as to say that Christianity, like Islam is not compatible with modernity, simply due to the "rivalry" between the religious beliefs, as well as the number of people who are completely OK with discrimination, hatred and other negative things toward any group that doesn't align with their belief.

**Spinner**

Sir Arun wrote:
Question should be: is the Taliban compatible with basic human decency?

135 dead pakistani school children by taliban hands say no.

Fixed it for ya.

**the shrouded lord**

Spinner wrote:
Sir Arun wrote:
Question should be: is the Taliban compatible with basic human decency?

135 dead pakistani school children by taliban hands say no.

Fixed it for ya.

indeed.

**Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl**

Medium of Death wrote:
Not the world police.

Not the West police either. Are you even part of the Britain police?
There is no need to be part of the police to actually care for others. You can talk about them without putting yourself above them. You do not have to separate people based on their nationality.
I will say more on that thread you will create if I can before it is closed

.

**Jihadin**

Anyone else notice the distinction that was made of what faction of Taliban that committed this?

**d-usa**

Sir Arun wrote:
Question should be: is Islam compatible with modernity?

135 dead pakistani school children by taliban hands say no.

Is Christianity compatible with modernity?

A camp full if child-brides in Texas says no.

Hey, this trick is easy!

**Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl**

Please wait until Medium of Death open the thread instead of starting the discussion here.

**Hordini**

Sir Arun wrote:
Question should be: is Islam compatible with modernity?

135 dead pakistani school children by taliban hands say no.

Others have already pointed it out, but that suggests that the problem is with the Taliban, not Islam. Especially considering the students that were killed were most likely Muslims themselves.

**Jihadin**

Hordini wrote:
Sir Arun wrote:
Question should be: is Islam compatible with modernity?

135 dead pakistani school children by taliban hands say no.

Others have already pointed it out, but that suggests that the problem is with the Pakistan Taliban (Afghanistan Taliban it seems are not the same), not Islam. Especially considering the students that were killed were most likely Muslims themselves.

Fixed

The distinction I mention earlier that's being said by some News Outlets

**d-usa**

Jihadin wrote:
Hordini wrote:
Sir Arun wrote:
Question should be: is Islam compatible with modernity?

135 dead pakistani school children by taliban hands say no.

Others have already pointed it out, but that suggests that the problem is with the Pakistan Taliban (Afghanistan Taliban it seems are not the same), not Islam. Especially considering the students that were killed were most likely Muslims themselves.

Fixed

The distinction I mention earlier that's being said by some News Outlets

My guess is that this probably comes from Afghanistan/US/whoever still trying to work out some sort of treaty with the Afghanistan Taliban folks?

**Jihadin**

d-usa wrote:
Jihadin wrote:
Hordini wrote:
Sir Arun wrote:
Question should be: is Islam compatible with modernity?

135 dead pakistani school children by taliban hands say no.

Others have already pointed it out, but that suggests that the problem is with the Pakistan Taliban (Afghanistan Taliban it seems are not the same), not Islam. Especially considering the students that were killed were most likely Muslims themselves.

Fixed

The distinction I mention earlier that's being said by some News Outlets

My guess is that this probably comes from Afghanistan/US/whoever still trying to work out some sort of treaty with the Afghanistan Taliban folks?

Pakistan trying to play both sides. Not as a whole just certain power bases within the Government and general population. I will admit though this is like the first time I heard mention today that there is a Pakistan version of the Taliban. The Taliban as a whole, back in 08-10, basically had the civilian population turn against them when they started "targeting" school age kids in Afghanistan. Also the backlash of smuggling in the children that were to be used as Suicide bombers. I would not want to be a Taliban member regardless of membership distinction in Pakistan in a few weeks. Since the new President (incoming in Afghanistan) seriously has major HATE towards Taliban that there will be no new or attempt of a deal regarding anyone in a leadership position in the Taliban

**Bullockist**

Ensis Ferrae wrote:
Sir Arun wrote:
Question should be: is Islam compatible with modernity?

135 dead pakistani school children by taliban hands say no.

Oddly, Afghanistan in the 1930s was more progressive than even the US. And if you look carefully, you can see this strain of being "ahead of the times" in many Islamic nations that are now viewed as being "backwards".

So, what happened? Well, among other things, you had the greatest military powers in the world dividing land up on a whim where and when it suited them, paying no regard to tribal/cultural ties or their rivalries. You had the rise of the Cold War, where the US and USSR waged proxy war on each other, creating and fueling groups that are now extremist in nature, etc.

I would honestly go so far as to say that Christianity, like Islam is not compatible with modernity, simply due to the "rivalry" between the religious beliefs, as well as the number of people who are completely OK with discrimination, hatred and other negative things toward any group that doesn't align with their belief.

Well said, history and perspective is a wonderful thing, pity that more people don't pay attention to it. Iran was also quite progressive before the revolution ended their democratic potential. (for a while at least)

**Asherian Command**

http://news.yahoo.com/pakistan-taliban-attack-military-school-kill-2-072153239.html

PESHAWAR, Pakistan (AP) — In the deadliest slaughter of innocents in Pakistan in years, Taliban gunmen attacked a military-run school Tuesday and killed 141 people — almost all of them students — before government troops ended the siege.

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The massacre of innocent children horrified a country already weary of unending terrorist attacks. Pakistan's teenage Nobel Peace laureate Malala Yousafzai — herself a survivor of a Taliban shooting — said she was "heartbroken" by the bloodshed.

Even Taliban militants in neighboring Afghanistan decried the killing spree, calling it "un-Islamic."

If the Pakistani Taliban extremists had hoped the attack would cause the government to ease off its military offensive that began in June in the country's tribal region, it appeared to have the opposite effect. Prime Minister Nawaz Sharif pledged to step up the campaign that — along with U.S. drone strikes — has targeted the militants.

"The fight will continue. No one should have any doubt about it," Sharif said. "We will take account of each and every drop of our children's blood."

Taliban fighters have struggled to maintain their potency in the face of the military operation. They vowed a wave of violence in response to the operation, but until Tuesday, there has only been one major attack by a splinter group near the Pakistan-India border in November. Analysts said the school siege showed that even diminished, the militant group still could inflict horrific carnage.

Taliban Attack On Pakistan School Leaves 141 DeadPlay videoTaliban Attack On Pakistan School Leaves 141 Dead
The rampage at the Army Public School and College began in the morning when seven militants scaled a back wall using a ladder, said Maj. Gen. Asim Bajwa, a military spokesman. When they reached an auditorium where students had gathered for an event, they opened fire.

A 14-year-old, Mehran Khan, said about 400 students were in the hall when the gunmen broke through the doors and started shooting. They shot one of the teachers in the head and then set her on fire and shouted "God is great!" as she screamed, added Khan, who survived by playing dead.

From there, they went to classrooms and other parts of the school.

"Their sole purpose, it seems, was to kill those innocent kids. That's what they did," Bajwa said. Of the 141 people slain before government troops ended the assault eight hours later, 132 were children and nine were staff members. Another 121 students and three staff members were wounded.

The seven attackers, wearing vests of explosives, all died in the eight-hour assault. It was not immediately clear if they were all killed by the soldiers or whether they blew themselves up, he said.

View galleryTaliban attack school in Peshawar, Pakistan
Pakistani civil society members take part in a candle light vigil for the victims of a school attack …
The wounded — some still wearing their green school blazers — flooded into hospitals as terrified parents searched for their children. By evening, funeral services were already being held for many of the victims as clerics announced the deaths over mosque loudspeakers.

The government declared three days of mourning for what appeared to be Pakistan's deadliest since a 2007 suicide bombing in the port city of Karachi killed 150 people.

"My son was in uniform in the morning. He is in a casket now," wailed one parent, Tahir Ali, as he came to the hospital to collect the body of his 14-year-old son, Abdullah. "My son was my dream. My dream has been killed."

One of the wounded students, Abdullah Jamal, said he was with a group of eighth, ninth and 10th graders who were getting first-aid instructions and training with a team of army medics when the violence became real. Panic broke out when the shooting began.

"I saw children falling down who were crying and screaming. I also fell down. I learned later that I have got a bullet," he said, speaking from his hospital bed.

White House Calls Taliban Attack In Pakistan ' …Play videoWhite House Calls Taliban Attack In Pakistan 'Cold …
Another student, Amir Mateen, said they locked the door from the inside when they heard the shooting, but gunmen blasted through anyway and opened fire.

Responding to the attack, armored personnel carriers were deployed around the school, and a military helicopter circled overhead.

A little more than 1,000 students and staff were registered at the school, which is part of a network run by the military, although the surrounding area is not heavily fortified. The student body is made up of both children of military personnel as well as civilians.

Most of the students appeared to be civilians rather than children of army staff, said Javed Khan, a government official. Analysts said the militants likely targeted the school because of its military connections.

"It's a kind of a message that 'we can also kill your children,'" said Pakistani analyst Zahid Hussain.

Malala Yousafzai on deadly Pakistan school attack: …Play videoMalala Yousafzai on deadly Pakistan school attack: …
In a statement to reporters, Taliban spokesman Mohammed Khurasani claimed responsibility for the attack, saying it was retribution for the military's operation in nearby North Waziristan, the northwestern tribal region where the group's fighters largely have been based.

"We targeted their kids so that they could know how it feels when they hit our kids," Khurasani said. He said the attackers were advised not to target "underage" children but did not elaborate on what that meant.

In its offensive, the military said it would go after all militant groups operating in the region. Security officials and civilians feared retribution by militants, but Pakistan has been relatively calm.

The attack raised the issue of whether this was the last gasp of a militant group crippled by a government offensive or whether the militants could regroup.

Hussain, the Pakistani analyst, called the attack an "act of desperation."

At least 132 dead after Taliban storm Pakistan sch …Play videoAt least 132 dead after Taliban storm Pakistan sch …
The violence will throw public support behind the campaign in North Waziristan, he said. It also shows that the Pakistani Taliban still maintains a strong intelligence network and remains a threat.

The attack drew swift condemnation from around the world. U.S. President Barack Obama said the "terrorists have once again showed their depravity."

U.S. Secretary of State John Kerry added: "The images are absolutely gut-wrenching: young children carried away in ambulances, a teacher burned alive in front of the students, a house of learning turned into a house of unspeakable horror."

Prime Minister Narendra Modi of India, Pakistan's longtime regional rival, called it "a senseless act of unspeakable brutality."

"My heart goes out to everyone who lost their loved ones today. We share their pain & offer our deepest condolences," Modi said in a series of tweeted statements.

Kerry says "devastating" Pakistan school …Play videoKerry says "devastating" Pakistan school …
U.N. Secretary-General Ban Ki-moon said it was a "an act of horror and rank cowardice to attack defenseless children while they learn."

The violence recalled the attack on Malala Yousafzai, who was shot in the head by a Taliban gunman outside her school in the Swat Valley for daring to speak up about girls' rights. She survived to become a global advocate for girls' education and received her Nobel Peace Prize last week, but has not returned to Pakistan in the two years since the shooting out of security concerns.

"Innocent children in their school have no place in horror such as this," the 17-year-old said. "I condemn these atrocious and cowardly acts."

___

Santana reported from Islamabad. Associated Press writers Asif Shahzad in Islamabad, Munir Ahmed in Peshawar, Ishtiaq Mahsud in Dera Ismail Khan and Danica Kirka in London contributed to this report.

Heres some stuff that you might find interesting

Apparently Afghan Taliban apparently said to the Pakistani Taliban went too far. And was unislamic

So basically the Taliban is starting to fracture.

**d-usa**

You know it's bad when the radicalized crazy people think that you are crazy...

**Asherian Command**

d-usa wrote:
You know it's bad when the radicalized crazy people think that you are crazy...

Thats what I thought too.

**Kilkrazy**

Sir Arun wrote:
Question should be: is Islam compatible with modernity?

135 dead pakistani school children by taliban hands say no.

Those children were Muslims attending a modern school.

**CptJake**

Jihadin wrote:
Breotan wrote:
One concern is that a suicide vest can be remote triggered even if the guy wearing it is dead. Police kill the terrorist then as they move in, a second guy triggers the bomb. Really serious stuff for them to have to deal with.

Mention earlier that there were no Dukes or Warlocks around the cafe being hostages were still linked in with WiFi.

They would have allowed spectrum use to get intel from the hostages, and from any sensors they covertly inserted, but I would bet somewhere between 2 minutes and 30 seconds before GO that the jammers were powered up.

**Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl**

Okay, I fell like this thread is turning into some serious ban-bait now. And completely off-topic.

**chromedog**

Sir Arun wrote:

I saw the video footage where they started spraying gunfire from OUTSIDE the cafe,

Most of the flashing was actually from multiple flash-bangs, NOT gunfire.
The perp started to nod off - the hostages, seeing an opening, started to move for the exits - he woke up and got off a few shots - THEN the po-po moved in, flashbangs first.

Shotguns aren't actually hard to come-by (compared to handguns or long-arms over a specified capacity). Much as the various religious groups like to close ranks and deny that he had any friends, someone like that ALWAYS has at least one friend who will help them out.