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zerosignal wrote:
If I gtg when the devs open fire, do the assault marines still get the bonus?

I'm of the understanding that once you've gtg once, you can't gtg again...

and the wording says if the unit gtg *as a result of the suppressing fusilade*

note the morale test is end of phase.

So... deploy in ruins. gtg when they open fire. they'll have to risk a close deepstrike, with -2 range (assaulting through cover).

I mean - it's brutal, but maybe there are tactical ways to counter it?

Pretty sure they make you take the save as soon as they target you. I don't even know if you get the chance to gtg before the effect takes place.

1) if an IC joins the assault marines there is nothing in the rules that states the IC can also assault after DS. Thus you get an assault squad that cannot assault after DS

2) The Suppressing Fusillade rule states a morale check at the end of the shooting phase to see if you GtG. You have to choose to GtG before rolling to hit thus you definitely get to choose before taking the test.

At least those are the rules posted everywhere.

 ansacs wrote:
1) if an IC joins the assault marines there is nothing in the rules that states the IC can also assault after DS. Thus you get an assault squad that cannot assault after DS

2) The Suppressing Fusillade rule states a morale check at the end of the shooting phase to see if you GtG. You have to choose to GtG before rolling to hit thus you definitely get to choose before taking the test.

At least those are the rules posted everywhere.

There's a thread in YMDC on this topic.

 ansacs wrote:
1) if an IC joins the assault marines there is nothing in the rules that states the IC can also assault after DS. Thus you get an assault squad that cannot assault after DS

2) The Suppressing Fusillade rule states a morale check at the end of the shooting phase to see if you GtG. You have to choose to GtG before rolling to hit thus you definitely get to choose before taking the test.

At least those are the rules posted everywhere.

With regards to issue 1 there is a definitive rule

CHARACTER AND ASSAULTS
Remember, a character that has joined a unit follows all the normal rules for being part of
a unit. If a character is in a unit that charges into close combat, the character charges too,
as it is part of the unit. If the character’s unit is locked in close combat, he fights as part of
the unit.

Should probably keep it in the other thread:

http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/652710.page

killerdou wrote:
The droppods are filled with all 10 devastators, and I think that is the transport capacity?

Only if you take 10, you can take 5 devs min.

Hell, you could run them as tactical marines and just use them to force enemy units to GtG

Good job, Games Workshop, on introducing another nightmarish rules debate. /facepalm.

As an Ork player, I'm not sure this will be as devastating to me. Honestly, the Dev squads are going to be strapped for good targets. I don't tend to play too much armor. I suppose if they are able to bring some flamers, I might be in trouble. But I should have enough bodies to keep the damage down before I charge them the following turn. The Assault Marines might be a little trickier, but from past experience against the Marine players in my location, Boyz almost always come out on top of Marines, even if I don't get charged. I tend to have too many bodies to kill, and too many attacks returning, even without the charge.

Going against this formation will be TOUGH, that's no doubt. For us Greenskins, I feel we fare a bit better. Marines want this to get their grav where it needs to be and to be able to bring a LOT of it. In general, Orks don't have many targets that NEED that kind of weapon to take out. It seems to be a wasted weapon choice. In most cases, Marines will probly want to avoid CC with us.

I'd love to get some test games in. I'm hoping I can get some Marine players in my area to run a couple games with this formation and see what happens. Swarm will likely be the counter to this.

^ this is why I'd bring tiggy and some stock dev cents. Good anti horde and with tiggy they can get rending for a turn. Give them a pod

 raiden wrote:
^ this is why I'd bring tiggy and some stock dev cents. Good anti horde and with tiggy they can get rending for a turn. Give them a pod

Still, can you wipe 100+ bodies in a single shooting phase even with all this stuff touching down turn 1?

Most likely not, however, you won't be getting everything into melee. If you are just one large blob (how most green horde lists are ran) I'll shoot off about 25 boys easily. Force 2-4 GtG checks on 3d6, if that fails you'll have normally 20 assault marines in your face at different spotsz rerolling everything (even HoW)

Eat those wounds, you WON'T kill all of them in one Go, I'll clean up your other units while moving away,

 raiden wrote:
Most likely not, however, you won't be getting everything into melee. If you are just one large blob (how most green horde lists are ran) I'll shoot off about 25 boys easily. Force 2-4 GtG checks on 3d6, if that fails you'll have normally 20 assault marines in your face at different spotsz rerolling everything (even HoW)

Eat those wounds, you WON'T kill all of them in one Go, I'll clean up your other units while moving away,

Well, if I'm running the Tide, you can't force me to ground. No Tide goes without the Big Bosspole, which gives Fearless, meaning we CAN'T gtg. If I'm NOT running the Tide, you'll maybe force me to go to ground with a couple of squads. And what is the wording on the test? Is a pinning check? If so, I get to use Bosspoles on every squad you attempt to shut down. If it's a moral test, I still get Bosspole checks to stay on my feet.

You'll do a lot of damage, but in both situations, you're not in a good spot by the end of it all. You don't have enough firepower to suppress them all. And we aren't even talking the possibility of Painboyz or KFF to mitigate wounds away either.

Of course, we are both paper hammering, and not actually playing. We can keep going back and forth with 'well I'll just x' as a response. I still think Orks will be alright. Not great. But alright, against this formation.

I will agree horde ork or foot guard type armies will do well against it. (Or better than most). Can't say the same for nids though as synapse creatures are all but gone.

The 25 was taking into affect a painboy for the big blob. Not accounting drop pod fire. (Since you should always have one...) KFF I don't like now since its a per model basis, but eh.

If you aren't running tide, il force to tests morale for GtG, then one for falling back from shooting. Etc etc, but yeah I agree theoryhammer can be silly.

raiden wrote:I will agree horde ork or foot guard type armies will do well against it. (Or better than most). Can't say the same for nids though as synapse creatures are all but gone.

Actually with the nid's ability to have an army wide 2+ cover save and fearless when you DS in and the quality bubble wrap you will average a single dead flyrant per Skyhammer Annihiltion Force, assuming no FnP, UM reroll to hit, and perfect LoS... Not exactly removing all the synapse sources in pretty much any nid list.

raiden wrote:If you aren't running tide, il force to tests morale for GtG, then one for falling back from shooting. Etc etc, but yeah I agree theoryhammer can be silly.

I was pretty convinced at this point that if an Ork player doesn't play green tide they play MSU ork units either bikes or in trukks. Either of those armies will make this formation look silly when they cause a whopping ~200 pts in casualties on their big alpha strike and get drowned in bodies and outgunned next turn. The ork player can charge the assault squads with glee as a source of extra movement and will be in range to shoot pretty much everything at the 24" range devs.


@Thread
People keep touting this formation as still highly effective against horde armies but continuously ignore cover saves on these armies, which is ironic as there is absolutely no reason for a unit to not GtG if when shot at by the grav devs. Any number targeting IG and nids that does not have at least a 3+ cover save involved is not realistic. IG have an order to get back in the fight and numerous sources of +1 cover or can take an ADL for 2+ GtG cover. Nids have a shrouded bubble and sacrificial little bugs to help bubble wrap and give cover.

There is also a constant tacit assumption that the assault marines will not only make their charges but will get to charge units they can beat handily in melee. With even the barest nod toward countering this in deployment the assault squads will fail to make their charges. Just deploy your outer shell of units in terrain and enjoy the -2 to charge distance. That puts a lot of pressure on the assault marines to attempt risky DS which also tend to end in mishaps or bad scatters.

yeah this is horrible against most hordes, well, unless people actually took HB's on the devs but most wont i think.

nost people bring grav on the devs, not only is it bad against hordes, but you fish for 6's on knights and still have the invul to get around, there are a lot cheaper ways to get 5-10 melta shots off too.


so most people would likely take grav or multi meltas, so either great against monsters, or good against vehicles.

the full scatter onthe ASM is a bigger problem then people give it credit for, a smart opponent will deploy in ways to mitigate that charge from reserves.

This is again why I take tiggy. It's extremely unlikely I won't get perfect timing, omniscope dev cent will handily remove that pesky 2+ cover save provider, after which my grav devs will be removing about one tyrant or swarm lord w/ guards a turn each. 3+ cover or not. I didn't say I'd remove all of them T1, but I'd shorten the bubbles alot, and possibly get some out of range.

My assault marines move 12, then charge with fleet, I doubt I won't get a charge off.

biker armies for orks are easier for the list than tide. I'm wounding your scariest unit on a 4+ now, with rerolls. Which, most likely can now be forced to GtG.

I don't care if my assualt marines win or lose, their job is to do one of two things, tie up any shooting units I won't be targeting, or assaulting anything near by that won't easily wreck them in one assault phase, so as to keep them from charging on your turn. At this point -any- casualties my ASM cause are icing on my cake.

 easysauce wrote:
yeah this is horrible against most hordes, well, unless people actually took HB's on the devs but most wont i think.

nost people bring grav on the devs, not only is it bad against hordes, but you fish for 6's on knights and still have the invul to get around, there are a lot cheaper ways to get 5-10 melta shots off too.

The Grav weapons aren't actually all that bad against hordes. Against 5+sv models, the Grav Cannons are putting out more wounds than Heavy Bolters would, it's only against 6+sv models that they're truly bad, and, compared to every other Dev weapon option *but* Heavy Bolters, the Grav Weapons still do better against Hordes.

Either way, if you're using drop podding relentless Devastators against a Horde unit, you're probably doing something wrong , especially given how many other options SM's have for dealing with them, not the least of which being 2x flamer+assaulting Assault Marines that probably won't need to rely on the Dev's pinning mechanic to be effective.

And while the Grav weapons may not not terribly spectacular against a Knight, they're certainly not awful if the Knight doesn't put its shield to the Grav Devs, it's likely to lose 4 of its 6 HP's.

On top of that they'll almost certainly kill any 2-3 HP vehicle (98% of the vehicles in the game) even if they're sporting a 4+ cover save

Having looked at the formation I am a little upset at its power level (along with the power levels of Decurion dex's), but that's only because im orks and it seems not only did we miss the power level hike, but it was such a long time between our codexes! so salt in the wound.

With regards to dealing with this, generally I don't enjoy green tide, but extreme MSU is very possible and enjoyable with orks. generally i'll have enough bubble wrap grots, or enough cannon fodder boyz that the skyhammer is doing the hard work for me (crossing the board). Admittedly a Anti-horde skyhammer would be quite powerful, I tend to feel most players will gear it the other way. Then Attempt to bring anti-horde/infantry another way. As mentioned, the strengths of this formation are getting your grav where its needed and getting the opponent on the backfoot.

As for my orks.... well if you can't beat em, join em!

Grot Marines hear I come! Ork skyhammer!

This is feking bonkers man - I can't play this with my friends - they wont play me. Assaulting with 20 assualt marines turn 1 out of DS is GG for just about any army that isn't full IK.

I played a game on Monday with this formation against a Rhino heavy Ultramarine player and it went very well for me. I think he ended up conceding on Turn3? He had bad rolls and out of 3 drop pods and 4 (combat-squaded) ASMs squads, only 1 (out of 7) scattered. That being said, I don't think this was a true test of the formations strength.

I truly believe with a more competitive army, less luck on my dice, any army with intercepter, or a properly deployed army will be just fine against the formation.

To add on to my success, I will add that I went first and got off a 4", 5", 6", and 7" charges with all my ASMs. He did get 5 out of 6 5++ saves on his Contemptor Mortis though. I happened to charge it with my ASMs and finish him off though.

 raiden wrote:
This is again why I take tiggy. It's extremely unlikely I won't get perfect timing, omniscope dev cent will handily remove that pesky 2+ cover save provider, after which my grav devs will be removing about one tyrant or swarm lord w/ guards a turn each. 3+ cover or not. I didn't say I'd remove all of them T1, but I'd shorten the bubbles alot, and possibly get some out of range.

My assault marines move 12, then charge with fleet, I doubt I won't get a charge off.

biker armies for orks are easier for the list than tide. I'm wounding your scariest unit on a 4+ now, with rerolls. Which, most likely can now be forced to GtG.

I don't care if my assualt marines win or lose, their job is to do one of two things, tie up any shooting units I won't be targeting, or assaulting anything near by that won't easily wreck them in one assault phase, so as to keep them from charging on your turn. At this point -any- casualties my ASM cause are icing on my cake.

How could you have such poor averages with 2 units of grav devs rerolling to hit and to wound? Each should kill a fly-rant easily after 2+ covers are removed. We are talking something close to 14 wounds each.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Saythings wrote:
I played a game on Monday with this formation against a Rhino heavy Ultramarine player and it went very well for me. I think he ended up conceding on Turn3? He had bad rolls and out of 3 drop pods and 4 (combat-squaded) ASMs squads, only 1 (out of 7) scattered. That being said, I don't think this was a true test of the formations strength.

I truly believe with a more competitive army, less luck on my dice, any army with intercepter, or a properly deployed army will be just fine against the formation.

To add on to my success, I will add that I went first and got off a 4", 5", 6", and 7" charges with all my ASMs. He did get 5 out of 6 5++ saves on his Contemptor Mortis though. I happened to charge it with my ASMs and finish him off though.

Interceptor? Disagree - a few units with interceptor wont do squat against 40 power armor units in your face turn 1 or 2. Only army that has a ton of that is tau and tau are gonna get rekt by these assault marines even if both units of devs somehow got smoked (which isn't gonna happen ether). Really I don't see this formation doing bad vs anything. 40 Tl gravcannons and 60 str 4 CC attacks on turn 1 or 2 is going to do it's damage just about every time.

Well with the power hike on each new Decurion dex, i'd expect to see Tau return with some serious business. Necrons seemed strong, then there was scatbikes, then this formation, well lets see what tau brings to the table.

In general I believe GW are giving the dex's a significant power hike with the whole 'formations with special rules', so I imagine the tau are going to have some formidable shooting formations, and well intereceptor will definitely be around.

 Xenomancers wrote:
Assaulting with 20 assualt marines turn 1 out of DS is GG for just about any army that isn't full IK.

No it's not. I don't know what kind of SM 'dex you play where 20 assault marines charging on turn 1 is GG. I'm rather more scared of combined Ruststalker/Infiltrator/Ironstrider w/ lance T1 charges.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Xenomancers wrote:

Interceptor? Disagree - a few units with interceptor wont do squat against 40 power armor units in your face turn 1 or 2. Only army that has a ton of that is tau and tau are gonna get rekt by these assault marines even if both units of devs somehow got smoked (which isn't gonna happen ether). Really I don't see this formation doing bad vs anything. 40 Tl gravcannons and 60 str 4 CC attacks on turn 1 or 2 is going to do it's damage just about every time.

Coteaz's "I've Been Expecting You" with a Plasma Obliterator. Bye-bye power armor.

^ the only thing I've seen ran with the plasma oblit is the assassin for the ignores cover plasma blast and almost no scatter chance.

 raiden wrote:
^ the only thing I've seen ran with the plasma oblit is the assassin for the ignores cover plasma blast and almost no scatter chance.

I'm thinking of running:
Coteaz
Rune Priest with Ignores Cover Hat that rerolls misses.
Plasma Oblit

In an upcoming tournament.

Only one model can fire the plasma oblit iirc

 raiden wrote:
Only one model can fire the plasma oblit iirc

The Rune Priest fires it with ignores cover and reroll hits. Coteaz just gives the RP permission to fire at any deep striking model.

gungo wrote:
The rules for independent characters state they can't join unless the IC also has deepstrike for the assault marines at least. You can't just have non jump pack independent charscters appearing for no reason.

ICs can be given jumppacks

gungo wrote:

The drop pods however are open to abuse. Relentless is a shared usr.

Relentless is not a shared USR, otherwise you would see everyone attaching ICs on bikes to devastators.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 pretre wrote:

 raiden wrote:
^ the only thing I've seen ran with the plasma oblit is the assassin for the ignores cover plasma blast and almost no scatter chance.

I'm thinking of running:
Coteaz
Rune Priest with Ignores Cover Hat that rerolls misses.
Plasma Oblit

In an upcoming tournament.

Run the plasma oblit as part of a Ad Mech War Convocation and ignore "gets hot" for extra cheddar.

 Exergy wrote:

 pretre wrote:

 raiden wrote:
^ the only thing I've seen ran with the plasma oblit is the assassin for the ignores cover plasma blast and almost no scatter chance.

I'm thinking of running:
Coteaz
Rune Priest with Ignores Cover Hat that rerolls misses.
Plasma Oblit

In an upcoming tournament.

Run the plasma oblit as part of a Ad Mech War Convocation and ignore "gets hot" for extra cheddar.

Not really necessary, the reroll hits allows you to reroll gets hot.

raiden wrote:This is again why I take tiggy. It's extremely unlikely I won't get perfect timing, omniscope dev cent will handily remove that pesky 2+ cover save provider, after which my grav devs will be removing about one tyrant or swarm lord w/ guards a turn each. 3+ cover or not. I didn't say I'd remove all of them T1, but I'd shorten the bubbles alot, and possibly get some out of range.

What nid list takes a single venomthrope or malanthrope, deploys in LoS of the rest of the board, and expects to keep 2+ cover save. Heck, forget tiggy just take a TFC and you will have just as good odds of removing the shrouded source.

Most nids player either take a couple of sources or a bastion to block LoS/stash the shrouded source in.

Admittedly tiggy is an extremely powerful IC that matches well with high damage units like grav devs.

raiden wrote:My assault marines move 12, then charge with fleet, I doubt I won't get a charge off.

Your assault marines move 12" after they DS? Are you aware that is illegal?

According to the brb the assault marines should DS with scatter and have to roll their charge without the benefit of any movement or even a run if they want to charge. They also need LoS to charge and cannot come into contact with any units in between. Assault marines charging out of DS is not easy.

raiden wrote:biker armies for orks are easier for the list than tide. I'm wounding your scariest unit on a 4+ now, with rerolls. Which, most likely can now be forced to GtG.

Ork biker armies get a built in 4+ (or 3+) cover save, are very hard for assault marines to handle in CC, tend to be extremely MSU, and one of the units can get a 2+ rerollable cover save. They also take up a lot of space and can swarm the board very effectively if allowed to go first. They also have enough range that they can bring the devs into assault within a turn or two and kill them. BTW bikes cannot GtG.

raiden wrote:I don't care if my assualt marines win or lose, their job is to do one of two things, tie up any shooting units I won't be targeting, or assaulting anything near by that won't easily wreck them in one assault phase, so as to keep them from charging on your turn. At this point -any- casualties my ASM cause are icing on my cake.

Why exactly are these ASM assumed to be able to always not scatter and make any charge distance through any intervening units into shooting units which would be the exact units that can be deployed in corners with less valuable units blocking the way to them? Most armies are forced to take units they consider a tax, sacrifice those to protect your valuable units.

Vaktathi wrote:The Grav weapons aren't actually all that bad against hordes. Against 5+sv models, the Grav Cannons are putting out more wounds than Heavy Bolters would, it's only against 6+sv models that they're truly bad, and, compared to every other Dev weapon option *but* Heavy Bolters, the Grav Weapons still do better against Hordes.

Grav + amps are definitely better than HBs against almost any target. The difference being that the grav has to be within 24" of the target and costs 25 pts more per gun. So for a unit of devs w/ 4 grav cannon you spend 210 pts whereas a dev unit w/ 4 HBs is 110 pts. Approximately half the cost and a significantly higher level of durability. 24" range puts your right in the range of the nastiest shooting in the game, like grav cannons

Vaktathi wrote:Either way, if you're using drop podding relentless Devastators against a Horde unit, you're probably doing something wrong , especially given how many other options SM's have for dealing with them, not the least of which being 2x flamer+assaulting Assault Marines that probably won't need to rely on the Dev's pinning mechanic to be effective.

Have you even DS 5 man units with flamers? You will be lucky to even touch the unit with your template on average, forget any significant casualties. In return you have to DS within ~15" of the unit to do anything next turn. That just happens to be within the range of movement + rapid fire for any unit and even to be assaulted by the more popular melee units.

Vaktathi wrote:And while the Grav weapons may not not terribly spectacular against a Knight, they're certainly not awful if the Knight doesn't put its shield to the Grav Devs, it's likely to lose 4 of its 6 HP's.

Actually if the knight doesn't put it's shield to a unit of grav devs with reroll to hit will deal 5.5 HP of damage. So it will always put it's shield toward a full unit of grav devs. With the shield it is only 2.7 HP per dev unit which is still pretty good but that ignores the fact that you spend 245 pts (w/ drop pod) for this unit and are now within 24" of an imperial knight that can kill off a significant portion of the dev unit in return. Assuming grav devs will get more than a single turn alive to deal damage is not a safe bet, so you better make a big splash.

Vaktathi wrote:On top of that they'll almost certainly kill any 2-3 HP vehicle (98% of the vehicles in the game) even if they're sporting a 4+ cover save

Yeah a full grav dev unit targeting most vehicles in the game are almost assured to kill it. However this is a 245 pts (w/ pod) unit that needs to be within 24" of the target. Most vehicles cost significantly less than 245 pts and most vehicles can kill enough devs to neuter them.

I am still trying to figure out whether the most optimal way to take this is with 10 devs to allow for combat squading the grav cannons but at the cost of drastically less efficient firepower or 5 man dev units to allow more firepower in the list but at the cost of less formation benefits and having to fire all the grav cannons at a single target.