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 Carnage43 wrote:

The doesn't "fix" the problem....as the problem is that this exists at all, and it doesn't make it not exist. All that would do is create potentially different issues.

1. It would have people counter-fit the rules. I've got the models, and the formation is OP....if I needed to produce the rules to be able to use them I could fake up a copy if need be. Would be almost impossible to call someone out on counter fitting the page if they do a good job.
2. It would make the formation pay-to-win, and would penalize people who've had the models long term. These are both not great alternatives.

Sure you can fake up a copy of the rules, but can you fake up the envelope they came with?

I get the idea that this is not part of the official codex, but something that comes with a formation bundle that gets purchased?
Simple thing for TO's to do is to just say if it isn't in a codex for the army you're bringing, then you can't use it. At least that's what I'd do if I was a TO.
On the other hand, this is pretty close to the marine fluff.

 Kanluwen wrote:

 agnosto wrote:

 Kanluwen wrote:

niv-mizzet wrote:
Another good formation to point to for my idea of banning all formations.

They're too hard for TO's to keep track of. They're even hard for players to keep track of. They provide extra rules, abilities, wargear, or models at no cost. There's horrible balance across formations. Some give you every rule ever, some let your terminators run and shoot the turn they deep strike. (ಠ_ಠ)

The codices might have varying power levels, but that's nothing compared to the fluctuation between formations.

Simple solution for TO's?

If someone wants to field one of these "unique bundled formations", they have to be able to produce the physical copy of the rules for it. The formations come with a physical copy of the rules in a black envelope labeled "CLASSIFIED".

Is that an ideal solution? No. But it keeps the number of people fielding these kinds of formations to a minimum.

Yay! That's the pay-to-win spirit!

I don't like it--but if it cuts down on the complaining we see, I'm for it!

A restriction like this would increase the complaining as it locks the formation safely behind the pay wall. A better way to have reduced its appearance and reduced the complaining would have been for the TO to not allow webstore exclusive formations.

 Homeskillet wrote:
I'm calling it right now; this is the most powerful formation in the game. These guys will erase Wraithknights, Imperial Knights, and anything else. This is just bananas. Also, it is super cool. They've just made Assault Squads worthwhile again, and gave me a reason to not use my Dev Squads as backfield IG wannabes.

the era of wraithknights is over before it really began. Best formation in the game!

of course, after all the crying about Eldar and D weaponry are we going to hear similar vitriol regarding the space marine codex and some of their formations? Pretty much why i won't play anywhere D is nerfed down such as ITC changes unless grav is also nerfed considerably. But since I have mostly wraith constructs, people aren't going to have any sympathy for being tabled in two turns. Guess that leaves with little option but to take allied DE WWPs for survival. Not exactly something I wanted to do with my wraiths.

If the space marines get this, it'd makes me gleeful to think about what cray unit/ formation the Tau will get.

 bullyboy wrote:
of course, after all the crying about Eldar and D weaponry are we going to hear similar vitriol regarding the space marine codex and some of their formations? Pretty much why i won't play anywhere D is nerfed down such as ITC changes unless grav is also nerfed considerably. But since I have mostly wraith constructs, people aren't going to have any sympathy for being tabled in two turns. Guess that leaves with little option but to take allied DE WWPs for survival. Not exactly something I wanted to do with my wraiths.

totally agree, problem is its easy to get the votes to downvote the D nerf, 95% of players dont play eldar and if it dosnt hurt their faction, why not vote it down. Marines on the other hand, Very popular. It wont be banned and wont even be discussed. Wonder if inquisitor coteaz is gonna start making appearences in everybodys armies now thanks to his multiple intercepts of incoming units per turn ability.

I sympathize with the FLG crew as it does start to feel like GW has a little side project going trying to screw their format over with each release.

They are thinking of allowing the Company with the free transports even though it violates their no duplicate formation rule. Seems like every book they are having to re-evaluate where they stand on something. I wonder how this Formation will play out in the ITC. IIRC they ended up putting a nerf on the Blood Angel Stormraven Formation disallowing first turn Drop Pod charges.

Wow so now all tournaments are going to be nothing but Decurion Crons, Windrunner Eldar and this?

Though this thing is only limited to 200, so will prove interesting.

Relapse wrote:
I get the idea that this is not part of the official codex, but something that comes with a formation bundle that gets purchased?
Simple thing for TO's to do is to just say if it isn't in a codex for the army you're bringing, then you can't use it. At least that's what I'd do if I was a TO.
On the other hand, this is pretty close to the marine fluff.

There are codex-only tournaments and events, but these resent a tiny fraction of games played. ITC allows all dataslates, formations, etc.

Eldar complaining about grav? You do know the ONLY reason grave exists is to fight monstrous creatures like wraith constructs? The weapon, regardless of number of shots is garbage against hordes. Against vehicles? Trash! I'll give up grav when Eldar pay double for wraiths.

Honestly, eldar get this much flack because of that attitude. You don't hear that kind of talk from tau about riptides.

I forsee having to make a unit of Deathmarks with attached Destroyer Lord and that template artifact.

Between WK and this new formation it's going to be extremely important to get the first hit.

Actually, the grav amp needs to not be there. Grav cannons are decent against all targets. With rerolls to wound they're 5/9ths to wound guardsmen or 3/4ths chance to wound 4+, and really 5+ stuff you have bolters for.

Now grav guns, without the reroll are pretty bad against 4+ and worse save things.

 Red Marine wrote:

5.Whats the difference between an official USR and the special rules that come with formations? Im asking because Id like to put Dante & a SangPriest in with the assault squad. I got an ax to grind with a certain formation loving Necron player. You like formations buddy? Dont think the decurions too much? Cool. Lets play the new FormationHammer 40k.

One is listed in the brb, the other is not. Other than that, nothing really. The rules are applied to the units chosen from the formation, but not anything else that joins them unless the rule specifically says otherwise.

In some cases it doesn't make any difference to how things operate, but in this instance, the assault squad models have the ability to assault after deepstriking, but nothing gives that ability to the ICs that are attached to the squad.

"When an Independent Character joins a unit, it might have different special rules from those of the unit. Unless specified in the rule itself (as in the Stubborn special rule), the unit’s special rules are not conferred upon the Independent Character, and the Independent Character’s special rules are not conferred upon the unit. Special rules that are conferred to the unit only apply for as long as the Independent Character is with them."

Yeah, it's just like if some guy with a bolt gun joins an assault squad and fires his rapid fire weapon. The whole squad can't charge then unless that guy had a rule allowing him to do that.

I kind of have to laugh, all these Marine players who were crying about the new Eldar and Necrons now have something that is just as nasty and are getting flakk for it!

 Red Marine wrote:
Eldar complaining about grav? You do know the ONLY reason grave exists is to fight monstrous creatures like wraith constructs? The weapon, regardless of number of shots is garbage against hordes. Against vehicles? Trash! I'll give up grav when Eldar pay double for wraiths.

Honestly, eldar get this much flack because of that attitude. You don't hear that kind of talk from tau about riptides.

not even close. I have no issue with grav, maybe it gets spammed a lot in most marine lists, but it's obscene vs anything with 2+ or 3+ save. That's fine too...until you put it in the formation discussed and wipe out several units in one go. Sure, wraiths can do that too, IF they take WWPs and we all know what people think of Eldar players doing that. But of course, it's marine BS instead of Eldar...so it's OK.

 gmaleron wrote:
I kind of have to laugh, all these Marine players who were crying about the new Eldar and Necrons now have something that is just as nasty and are getting flakk for it!

Ironically, I am laughing because Eldar got like, hundreds of pages of hate over Distortion weapons and Scatter lasers. But IMO Gladius can be as competitive as Eldar 7e, and Skyhammer is like... WAY over the top, lol, and we have a crumby 3 pages of back and forth

Need more fearless units or bubble to stop this.

Deshkar wrote:
Need more fearless units or bubble to stop this.

Space Marine Scouts!

 Talys wrote:

 gmaleron wrote:
I kind of have to laugh, all these Marine players who were crying about the new Eldar and Necrons now have something that is just as nasty and are getting flakk for it!

Ironically, I am laughing because Eldar got like, hundreds of pages of hate over Distortion weapons and Scatter lasers. But IMO Gladius can be as competitive as Eldar 7e, and Skyhammer is like... WAY over the top, lol, and we have a crumby 3 pages of back and forth

pretty much this...

With my Tau, not really worried about this Formation at all. I always give everything Interceptor that can take it just in case for Drop Pod armies, just means I will need to be especially careful about those Devastators with Grav Cannons. The Assault Marines I am confident my Supporting Overwatch will do enough damage to get the job done on top of it.

Lotta Eldar tears being shed

 gmaleron wrote:
With my Tau, not really worried about this Formation at all. I always give everything Interceptor that can take it just in case for Drop Pod armies, just means I will need to be especially careful about those Devastators with Grav Cannons. The Assault Marines I am confident my Supporting Overwatch will do enough damage to get the job done on top of it.

For sure, Interceptor is the best way to deal with drop pods. Of course, if you play with terrain, it is often possible to minimize interceptor shots. That being said, this rule may mess with the whole Overwatch thing:

Suppressing Fusillade: A unit targeted by a Skyhammer Annihilation Force's Devastator Squad in the Shooting phase must take a Morale test at the end of the phase on 3D6, regardless of how many casualties were inflicted. If the test is failed, the enemy unit does not Fall Back, but must immediately Go to Ground. If the test is passed, the enemy unit is unable to fire Overwatch for the rest of the turn.

Whether or not you're hit, you make a morale check. If you pass, you Go to Ground (where you can't fire Overwatch), and if you fail, you just... can't fire Overwatch. It's actually kind of crazy good, especially since the Assault Marines can use jump packs twice (move and assault), charge from reserves, AND against units that failed the Ld check get hit and wound rerolls. And Hammer of Wrath (because they're jumping into battle).

Cindis wrote:
Lotta Eldar tears being shed

For sure, I think whats even funnier is some Marine players getting offended they have something potential as strong as what the Eldar and Necron can do!

Eldar, Necrons, blah blah blah, what about Admech? We can get free upgrade and relics, did folks already forget how broken our war convocation is? New kids on the block not good enough huh?

On a more serious note though, I wonder if a 3 bot group of Kastelans could survive the initial dev barrage. Don't suppose Icarus Arrays would pose a threat to this formation?

 Ir0njack wrote:
Eldar, Necrons, blah blah blah, what about Admech? We can get free upgrade and relics, did folks already forget how broken our war convocation is? New kids on the block not good enough huh?

On a more serious note though, I wonder if a 3 bot group of Kastelans could survive the initial dev barrage. Don't suppose Icarus Arrays would pose a threat to this formation?

Oh not denying Mechanicum is very strong, I was considering making an army of them and it was kind of hilarious how they were ignored in regards to how powerful they are. Have to realize that a trend ive been noticing, on forums in particular that as long as its IoM army they are not Overpowerd. For some reason its only the Xenos races that get an insane amount of flakk to the point of ridiculousness when it comes to getting powerful units, formations ect.

In fairness, a lot of the vitriol against Necron and Eldar is because of two things:

1) They've had it pretty easy for a long time

2) Their really good formations -- both now and before -- are pretty easy to play.

On the other hand, as good as this new formation and the Gladius formation seem to be, they will require some skill and experience to execute successfully, and games against different armies may require dramatically different strategies and loadouts.

stopcallingmechief wrote:

 bullyboy wrote:
of course, after all the crying about Eldar and D weaponry are we going to hear similar vitriol regarding the space marine codex and some of their formations? Pretty much why i won't play anywhere D is nerfed down such as ITC changes unless grav is also nerfed considerably. But since I have mostly wraith constructs, people aren't going to have any sympathy for being tabled in two turns. Guess that leaves with little option but to take allied DE WWPs for survival. Not exactly something I wanted to do with my wraiths.

totally agree, problem is its easy to get the votes to downvote the D nerf, 95% of players dont play eldar and if it dosnt hurt their faction, why not vote it down. Marines on the other hand, Very popular. It wont be banned and wont even be discussed. Wonder if inquisitor coteaz is gonna start making appearences in everybodys armies now thanks to his multiple intercepts of incoming units per turn ability.

*comes to thread about a formation even marine players are complaining about being OP* (quotations paraphrased).

"I bet no marine players will complain about this because they play marines"

Err no actually - almost everyone here without exception is saying how OP it is. No apologists here like the ton of users with EJBs and WKs.

"It won't even be discussed"

Do you see the complete irony of that comment on this thread?

"As if there's a weapon that is increadibly effective against almost all my units"

Welcome to how people feel being shot by D and st6 spam.


You know what you don't see yet? People viciously attacking anyone who says it is OP. Something that happened all the time with eldar apologists. So please do not have the audacity to come on to a pleasent thread and turn it into another attack on those who think eldar are OP, especially considering your behaviour from when that dex was released. We admit this is OP and have no problem with agreeing with that.

Marines are still have hard counters, cover saves, interceptor, AP3, Space Marine Scout beacons?!

D-Weapons straight up ignored 100% of everything on a roll of a 6 (and rolls of 2-5 were still fairly deadly!) and were made available everywhere. (Hence the, I think, reasonable ITC changes).

So 5 drop pods turn 1. Would the new & improved dreadnoughts work well? The improved scouts, infiltrate your core troops, for an improved null-deployment? Can ASM field dual special weapons - if so, will it simply be grav-cannon devs and melta ASM's? What kind of skyfire weaponry would compliment this formation well?

Furthering this line of thought, as the formation is a big chunk of points, Where would skyfire be best suited? Could something from the skitarri (or is it Ad-Mech) for the objective-picking relic? Or the walker? Or something native to Space Marines?