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niv-mizzet wrote:
Another good formation to point to for my idea of banning all formations.

They're too hard for TO's to keep track of. They're even hard for players to keep track of. They provide extra rules, abilities, wargear, or models at no cost. There's horrible balance across formations. Some give you every rule ever, some let your terminators run and shoot the turn they deep strike. (ಠ_ಠ)

The codices might have varying power levels, but that's nothing compared to the fluctuation between formations.

Simple solution for TO's?

If someone wants to field one of these "unique bundled formations", they have to be able to produce the physical copy of the rules for it. The formations come with a physical copy of the rules in a black envelope labeled "CLASSIFIED".

Is that an ideal solution? No. But it keeps the number of people fielding these kinds of formations to a minimum.

 Ghenghis Jon wrote:
2) the 3D6 leadership tests will break most units, and many of those (but not most) will evaporate when they fail their regroup roll when assaulted.

Nah, check the rules again. They take an LD test on 3d6, but failure doesn't result in them breaking, "just" going to ground (and hence giving the assault marines a whole set of bonuses against them). Success means that you "only" lose the ability to fire overwatch.

This formation is crazy good.

The removal of overwatch is icing and actually hides the real benefit. The units that you are reasonably likely (3D6 = 10.5) to GtG

5 Boltgun devastator marines (tbf, you can opt to throw a single frag grenade, same effect) should be able to remove an infantry squad/Model (or model sub-group) for a turn. In addition, you have 4 heavies (+a combi?!) dev squad + a combat-squad Assault squad.

I know it is ridiculous, potentially really ridiculous, but it is giving me an option to field my ASM again. Yeah!

Question: With the timing of GtG in your own shooting phase, when would they return to normal?

 Kanluwen wrote:

niv-mizzet wrote:
Another good formation to point to for my idea of banning all formations.

They're too hard for TO's to keep track of. They're even hard for players to keep track of. They provide extra rules, abilities, wargear, or models at no cost. There's horrible balance across formations. Some give you every rule ever, some let your terminators run and shoot the turn they deep strike. (ಠ_ಠ)

The codices might have varying power levels, but that's nothing compared to the fluctuation between formations.

Simple solution for TO's?

If someone wants to field one of these "unique bundled formations", they have to be able to produce the physical copy of the rules for it. The formations come with a physical copy of the rules in a black envelope labeled "CLASSIFIED".

Is that an ideal solution? No. But it keeps the number of people fielding these kinds of formations to a minimum.

Yay! That's the pay-to-win spirit!

Assault Squads getting gak done? What is this, DoW2?

Razerous wrote:
This formation is crazy good.

The removal of overwatch is icing and actually hides the real benefit. The units that you are reasonably likely (3D6 = 10.5) to GtG

5 Boltgun devastator marines (tbf, you can opt to throw a single frag grenade, same effect) should be able to remove an infantry squad/Model (or model sub-group) for a turn. In addition, you have 4 heavies (+a combi?!) dev squad + a combat-squad Assault squad.

I know it is ridiculous, potentially really ridiculous, but it is giving me an option to field my ASM again. Yeah!

Question: With the timing of GtG in your own shooting phase, when would they return to normal?

Same as it normally would be, after their turn so they still fire Snap Shots.

This Formation actually feels like Ultramarines to me finally. I was getting a real lack of 'Battle Company Badassery' in the book and the free transports just weren't enough to tickle my pickle. Now I have plans to run a Demi-Company with Bikes and Centurions, then this Formation to fill out the rest of the models. Not exactly Kosher, using some Tactical bodies in the other roles, but it actually feels like 3rd Company can be a thing without having to resort to tanks and 1st Company. I'm excited for this one.

Assuming a single formation against a fearless army, 4 enemy units lose overwatch every turn and against a non-fearless army 4 enemy units are pinned per turn....that alone sounds perfectly balanced right?

This "formation" is very disturbing. it's a zero-cost enhancement to allow a bunch of units to come in where they want, when they want, and engage an enemy on their terms and at full (or better0 effectiveness, with an extremely high degree of safety, and basically nothing an opponent can do about it. It's simply an absurd number of free buffs requiring zero ability or thought to use to incredible effect, legally obtainable only by purchasing an expensive web bundle of new kits.

It's the very definition of "pay2win".

Seeing Assault Marine's kick some butt will not make me shed any tears, but... grav buff?

And the p2w? :/

This is bad.

Absolutely overpowered ridonkulously good garbage with zero cost, zero tax. They even killed a sacred cow here, letting assault marines assault while deep striking. Holy crap.

GW has really jumped the shark with formations.

 agnosto wrote:

 Kanluwen wrote:

niv-mizzet wrote:
Another good formation to point to for my idea of banning all formations.

They're too hard for TO's to keep track of. They're even hard for players to keep track of. They provide extra rules, abilities, wargear, or models at no cost. There's horrible balance across formations. Some give you every rule ever, some let your terminators run and shoot the turn they deep strike. (ಠ_ಠ)

The codices might have varying power levels, but that's nothing compared to the fluctuation between formations.

Simple solution for TO's?

If someone wants to field one of these "unique bundled formations", they have to be able to produce the physical copy of the rules for it. The formations come with a physical copy of the rules in a black envelope labeled "CLASSIFIED".

Is that an ideal solution? No. But it keeps the number of people fielding these kinds of formations to a minimum.

Yay! That's the pay-to-win spirit!

I don't like it--but if it cuts down on the complaining we see, I'm for it!

Mozzamanx wrote:
What.

This is absurdly, off-the-wall bonkers good. Absolutely stunning power, honestly something I'd put well beyond Adamantine Lance, Decurions and the new Eldar.
Imagine taking 2 of these in a 1750pt game. 4 Assault, 4 Devastators. Everyone arrives Turn 1, the Devs Combat Squad. Bolter the infantry, Melta the tanks. Assaults charge and get stuck in.

It's removing all of the possible risks of deployment, movement and Deep Strike. It then supercharges your offensive output, throws some good old Morale hits for good measure, and your opponent has absolutely no possible response or counterplay beyond 'bubblewrap everything'.

Or run a pod list himself and make you go first (Actually, he wouldn't even need this formation, just anything that doesn't put too much on the table the turn you drop, but would have a chance to wipe you out if you didn't drop turn 1.)


Automatically Appended Next Post:
But yeah the total lack of balance is disappointing.

 Vaktathi wrote:
This "formation" is very disturbing. it's a zero-cost enhancement to allow a bunch of units to come in where they want, when they want, and engage an enemy on their terms and at full (or better0 effectiveness, with an extremely high degree of safety, and basically nothing an opponent can do about it. It's simply an absurd number of free buffs requiring zero ability or thought to use to incredible effect, legally obtainable only by purchasing an expensive web bundle of new kits.

It's the very definition of "pay2win".

What bothers me is the balance issue.

We all know that gw has never been the best at balancing their games. I have always believed that it was down to honest negligence and a belief in a particular way that the game should be played. We've all read articles where the designers talk about playing loose with the rules, army lists, playing very casually with an aim simply to have fun and, of course "forge a narrative" (all great in my opinion).

However, I think this, for the reasons you and others mention, is the first time that I've seen them so obviously and deliberately over power an army (or formation, or whatever), simply to try get some quick sales on one of their bundles.

It's not unusual for a new model to be released alongside a new codex and get some nice, attractive rules to go with it... yes, to encourage sales. Maybe they even done something a bit similar to this with the BA triple stormraven formation. This however, seems completely over the top and, like I say extremely obvious and deliberate.

I'm pretty disappointed with it. Maybe I shouldn't be surprised.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

mercury14 wrote:


GW has really jumped the shark with formations.

Yup.

You do know that the formation owner can choose for it to drop turn 2, if he wants ?

Makumba wrote:
You do know that the formation owner can choose for it to drop turn 2, if he wants ?

Then he has to have enough on the table Turn 1 to avoid being tabled before that happens. If he goes crazy with a pair of these, he won't have much else.

But the more I think about it, the more it seems like things that mess with deep strike might be the answer here or an-interceptor happy Tau army.

 Kanluwen wrote:

 agnosto wrote:

 Kanluwen wrote:

niv-mizzet wrote:
Another good formation to point to for my idea of banning all formations.

They're too hard for TO's to keep track of. They're even hard for players to keep track of. They provide extra rules, abilities, wargear, or models at no cost. There's horrible balance across formations. Some give you every rule ever, some let your terminators run and shoot the turn they deep strike. (ಠ_ಠ)

The codices might have varying power levels, but that's nothing compared to the fluctuation between formations.

Simple solution for TO's?

If someone wants to field one of these "unique bundled formations", they have to be able to produce the physical copy of the rules for it. The formations come with a physical copy of the rules in a black envelope labeled "CLASSIFIED".

Is that an ideal solution? No. But it keeps the number of people fielding these kinds of formations to a minimum.

Yay! That's the pay-to-win spirit!

I don't like it--but if it cuts down on the complaining we see, I'm for it!

I reject any solution that incentivises the actual paying of money to GW to purchase this nonsense.

You don't teach a dog not to gak on the carpet by giving it treats every time it does

Yeah. This just makes me feel even worse about going to buy the new marine codex today.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
On the bright side, there's a counter to scat bike and WK spam now.

Yeah without trying you can make a list that obsecs everything and eliminates WK and support units alike with ease.
Ultramarines Skyspear BS formation.
Assault Marines with jump packs, 2 flamers, eviscerator, and power maul.
140pts + melta bomb

Assault Marines with jump packs, 2 flamers, eviscerator, and power maul.
140pts + melta bomb

(280pts) total.

Devastators with 4 grav guns and drop pod
245pts
Devastators with 4 grav guns and drop pod
245pts
(490) total

Ravenguard CAD
Hq
Techmarine -90pts

Troops
4x scout squads with shot guns. Assault cannon land speeder-440pts
2x 10 scout squads with bolt pistol and ccw+ teleport homer and melta bomb 250pts

Heavy Support
3 Thunderfire Cannons-300pts

First draft of a list that uses this:

Inquisitorial Detachment
Ordo Xenos Inquisitor- Servo Skull

Skyhammer Annihilation Force 1
Assault Squad- 10, Veteran Sergeant with Eviscerator, Jump Packs
Assault Squad- 10, Veteran Sergeant with Eviscerator, Jump Packs
Devastator Squad- 10, 4 Amped Grav-Cannons, Combi-Grav, Drop Pod
Devastator Squad- 10, 4 Amped Grav-Cannons, Drop Pod

Skyhammer Annihilation Force 2
Assault Squad- 8, Jump Packs, Meltabombs
Assault Squad- 8, Jump Packs, Meltabombs
Devastator Squad- 5, 4 Amped Grav-Cannons, Drop Pod
Devastator Squad- 5, 4 Amped Grav-Cannons, Drop Pod

1850/1850pts

The Inquisitor is there to provide a warm body on Turn 1 in the event that you run into an enemy Drop Pod army; the only thing that is immediately obvious as a threat.
- 66 Marines on the field seems like a good bodycount
- 16 of those are packing Relentless, Salvo5 Gravs that can reroll wounds
- 36 of them are packing A3, Hammer of Wrath and rerolls out the bum
- Assault Marines are built to shred light infantry, with enough anti-tank to threaten with Melta, Eviscerators and Kraks.
- Devastators are built to shred anything with an armour save, monsters and harder vehicles.
- Obviously Combat Squad the Devastators to get as many 3D6 pinning checks as possible.

Any takers or obvious room for improvement?

Hmmm, wonder if I can squeeze 3 of these formations into 1850. We'll have to see how the point costs shake out for assault marines and devistators.

I'm thinking close to 90 marines hitting the ground turn 1, firing and assaulting.

Good bye scatter bikes, thanks for playing.

Kanluwen wrote:

niv-mizzet wrote:
Another good formation to point to for my idea of banning all formations.

They're too hard for TO's to keep track of. They're even hard for players to keep track of. They provide extra rules, abilities, wargear, or models at no cost. There's horrible balance across formations. Some give you every rule ever, some let your terminators run and shoot the turn they deep strike. (ಠ_ಠ)

The codices might have varying power levels, but that's nothing compared to the fluctuation between formations.

Simple solution for TO's?

If someone wants to field one of these "unique bundled formations", they have to be able to produce the physical copy of the rules for it. The formations come with a physical copy of the rules in a black envelope labeled "CLASSIFIED".

Is that an ideal solution? No. But it keeps the number of people fielding these kinds of formations to a minimum.

The doesn't "fix" the problem....as the problem is that this exists at all, and it doesn't make it not exist. All that would do is create potentially different issues.

1. It would have people counter-fit the rules. I've got the models, and the formation is OP....if I needed to produce the rules to be able to use them I could fake up a copy if need be. Would be almost impossible to call someone out on counter fitting the page if they do a good job.
2. It would make the formation pay-to-win, and would penalize people who've had the models long term. These are both not great alternatives.

alanmckenzie wrote:

 Vaktathi wrote:
This "formation" is very disturbing. it's a zero-cost enhancement to allow a bunch of units to come in where they want, when they want, and engage an enemy on their terms and at full (or better0 effectiveness, with an extremely high degree of safety, and basically nothing an opponent can do about it. It's simply an absurd number of free buffs requiring zero ability or thought to use to incredible effect, legally obtainable only by purchasing an expensive web bundle of new kits.

It's the very definition of "pay2win".

What bothers me is the balance issue.

We all know that gw has never been the best at balancing their games. I have always believed that it was down to honest negligence and a belief in a particular way that the game should be played. We've all read articles where the designers talk about playing loose with the rules, army lists, playing very casually with an aim simply to have fun and, of course "forge a narrative" (all great in my opinion).

However, I think this, for the reasons you and others mention, is the first time that I've seen them so obviously and deliberately over power an army (or formation, or whatever), simply to try get some quick sales on one of their bundles.

It's not unusual for a new model to be released alongside a new codex and get some nice, attractive rules to go with it... yes, to encourage sales. Maybe they even done something a bit similar to this with the BA triple stormraven formation. This however, seems completely over the top and, like I say extremely obvious and deliberate.

I'm pretty disappointed with it. Maybe I shouldn't be surprised.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

mercury14 wrote:


GW has really jumped the shark with formations.

Yup.

I get this feeling as well. It's probably the most blatant cash grab formation I've ever seen.

My real issue, beyond the cash grabbing, is that it's a complete reversal of one of their design philosophies from 6th and 7th edition. Mainly, they don't think it's fun when you get removed wholesale from the board without being able to counter. This is why assault from stationary transports, assault from outflank and reserve and assault from deepstrike have all been systematically removed over the last 3ish years. Now we've got got it all back again....but worse than it ever was.

I mean, they can't even follow their own design guidelines, how are they expecting to make a coherent game out of it?

Mozzamanx wrote:
First draft of a list that uses this:

Inquisitorial Detachment
Ordo Xenos Inquisitor- Servo Skull

Skyhammer Annihilation Force 1
Assault Squad- 10, Veteran Sergeant with Eviscerator, Jump Packs
Assault Squad- 10, Veteran Sergeant with Eviscerator, Jump Packs
Devastator Squad- 10, 4 Amped Grav-Cannons, Combi-Grav, Drop Pod
Devastator Squad- 10, 4 Amped Grav-Cannons, Drop Pod

Skyhammer Annihilation Force 2
Assault Squad- 8, Jump Packs, Meltabombs
Assault Squad- 8, Jump Packs, Meltabombs
Devastator Squad- 5, 4 Amped Grav-Cannons, Drop Pod
Devastator Squad- 5, 4 Amped Grav-Cannons, Drop Pod

1850/1850pts

The Inquisitor is there to provide a warm body on Turn 1 in the event that you run into an enemy Drop Pod army; the only thing that is immediately obvious as a threat.
- 66 Marines on the field seems like a good bodycount
- 16 of those are packing Relentless, Salvo5 Gravs that can reroll wounds
- 36 of them are packing A3, Hammer of Wrath and rerolls out the bum
- Assault Marines are built to shred light infantry, with enough anti-tank to threaten with Melta, Eviscerators and Kraks.
- Devastators are built to shred anything with an armour save, monsters and harder vehicles.
- Obviously Combat Squad the Devastators to get as many 3D6 pinning checks as possible.

Any takers or obvious room for improvement?

What chapter tactic you thinking of using? RG is obviously pointless since the asm get double jump for free with the formation. I'm thinking ultras will probably be best. Drop a tactical doctrine to have everyone rerolling 1's in both shooting and assault, and then next turn either the assault or dev doctrine based on which needs to do more work. (And how many of each survived the counter attack.)

To take this in another direction, what's everyone thinking about abusing the assault squads as a vehicle to bring in jump-pack characters?

Off the top of my head, using this with a flesh tearer's strike force, which has a lord of war slot, you could take a sanguinary priest with the angel's wing in one unit and then Dante in the other, to both mitigate scatter as an issue and have Dante putting his axe through faces on turn 1.

Or just take it with a librarius conclave, scatter the librarians throughout the formation. Two with jump packs to come in with the assault squads, and then maybe take a dev squad with less than 10 models to pack another librarian into one of the pods. Roll for whatever powers seem appropriate, but biomancy seems like a fun one. Especially if you get Enfeeble or Endurance. Or you could be boring and take your pod librarian as Tigurius, then go for his standard picks of either invisibility or perfect timing.

Maybe just take a pair of beatstick chapter masters with jump packs. Always fun. Especially if you're playing iron hands and coupling it with the sanguinary priest idea above.

Plenty of fun combinations to think of for this. Gonna be going over this for a while trying to wring out the absolute most rage-inducing combinations.

Pretty sure you won't be able to attach characters and take advantage of the formation special rules unless they specifically mention that they apply to ICs that join the formation units.

1. As a BAs player that had to drop one thousand points to get anything close to this, im pissed off.

2. This a bit too much. Formations could have been used for good. To fix craptastic units. Now GW is making formations something to be dreaded.

3. Id gladly use this against necron decurions & any eldar. In the most "competitive" combination of marines & equipment too. Id only recommend using this against older codex atmys that you've really strugglef against.

4. This is such a sad, blatant cash grab. I can think of similar releases like riptides, Iknights & wraithknights. This is even worse. Whatever disdain i had for counterfeiters & downloaders has vanished.

5.Whats the difference between an official USR and the special rules that come with formations? Im asking because Id like to put Dante & a SangPriest in with the assault squad. I got an ax to grind with a certain formation loving Necron player. You like formations buddy? Dont think the decurions too much? Cool. Lets play the new FormationHammer 40k.

The reaction to this formation reminds me a lot of the Angels Fury Spearhead Force where people freaked out that it was unbeatable...

Anyways, for those proposing taking 2 of these formations for an alpha strike army you may want to read and perhaps comment on my recent thread where I tried talking about the strategies for and against extreme alpha strike armies, which 2 of these formations would pretty much be.
Alpha Strike and Planning for it. A Tactical Discussion.

Anyways, some of the things people seem to be somewhat confused about and/or perhaps haven't thought of that I think are important;
1) The Suppressing Fusillade ability is a 3d6 morale test. That means any unit that is fearless auto passes. Actually there are a whole suite of abilities that allow you to auto pass morale checks. Also GtG already didn't allow for you to fire overwatch and for half the dev unit (ie the ones with grav cannons) you are going to want to GtG if you can. Additionally, to make use of the no overwatch ability you will actually need to make your charge roll which is not something you should assume you can do when competent opponents are likely to bubble wrap important stuff and you either have to DS then assault or the opponent gets to shoot at your fragile dev squads.
2) Any deployment that isn't incompetent will leave the assault marines very unlikely to make charges after a DS. If making charge after DS was so easy then BA would never have lost a game all through 5ed. People keep talking about taking a locator beacon to let the DSing assault marines land without scatter but why would your opponent let you move a beacon into range turn 1 and not kill it? All the stuff you can get a beacon on and get where you need it turn 1 is either too expensive to let you take the formation below 1850 pts or too fragile to survive your opponent's shooting and assault phase (yeah you are getting within ~18" so assault phase).
3) 60 SM bodies might sound like something special but not after you consider that none of them have ObjSec and the vast majority of the damage comes from just 10-20 of those SM bodies that will likely have limited range. This list could be considered as an extreme alpha strike army but it is actually the lightest weight of the extreme alpha strike armies I have seen since recently.
4) UM dev doctrines make an excellent synergy for the devs coming in. The damage you deal with the devs this way could make this formation shine.
5) The grav dev version of this formation is extremely susceptible to a well done null deployment, even with the ability to come in turn 2. The grav devs are just too fragile for you to not get the alpha strike with them. The fact that you have to come in on turn 1 or 2 and no latter is usually a positive but can be made into a negative.
6) Armies with extreme turn 1 durability will make this list experience a hellish time. If you drop down and shoot at a bunch of 2+ cover save or 3++/Res 4++ units without range to assault or even wanting to assault them you are going to be in a very bad way. If you use this formation you should definitely bring a tough turn 1 presence so you have the option to bring them in turn 2.

You are witnessing the death of competitive 40k play as we know it and the beginning of MTG'ing of 40k.

Back to Axis and Allies....

Hey GW f-Ork you!

 Dakkamite wrote:

I reject any solution that incentivises the actual paying of money to GW to purchase this nonsense.

You don't teach a dog not to gak on the carpet by giving it treats every time it does

Sorry if you believed my statement was that "players should buy this formation because it's amazing"?

I was saying that if TOURNAMENT ORGANIZERS want a solution for big formations like this that get whined about and add to their workload, requiring the physical copy to be present is an easy out for them.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Carnage43 wrote:

The doesn't "fix" the problem....as the problem is that this exists at all, and it doesn't make it not exist. All that would do is create potentially different issues.

1. It would have people counter-fit the rules. I've got the models, and the formation is OP....if I needed to produce the rules to be able to use them I could fake up a copy if need be. Would be almost impossible to call someone out on counter fitting the page if they do a good job.
2. It would make the formation pay-to-win, and would penalize people who've had the models long term. These are both not great alternatives.

Sure you can fake up a copy of the rules, but can you fake up the envelope they came with?

The debate about the having the phyiscal rules is already nauseating. Nobody outside of Tournament organizers should care. Once people start buying into that then it will only get worse.