Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you:
No adverts like this in the forums anymore.
Times and dates in your local timezone.
Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance.
Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely.
Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net.
If you are already a member then feel free to login now.
2016/11/18 18:48:40
Subject: How would a normal human being kill a Space Marine?
Trying to base caliber off the models isnt a great way to do things, bolters come in a a very wide array of sizes and shapes for what are ostensibly the same units, and the scaling isnt realistic either (thats how we get guardmesn with proportions like those of 4 year olds).
We just dont know what caliber shotguns these shotguns are or what ammo they use. The same shotgun firing birdshot may be S3 but S4 when firing buckshot for instance, or IG shotguns may be .410 weenies and Astartes shotguns might be 12 gauges, we just dont really know, the universe doesnt give us much to work with.
IRON WITHIN, IRON WITHOUT.
New Heavy Gear Log! Also...Grey Knights! The correct pronunciation is Imperial Guard and Stormtroopers, "Astra Militarum" and "Tempestus Scions" are something you'll find at Hogwarts.
2016/11/18 18:58:14
Subject: How would a normal human being kill a Space Marine?
JohnHwangDD wrote: A Shotgun is S4. Lots of Americans have 12ga shotguns. And it's not like they can't get slugs for them.
Given that a Space Marine shotgun (the ones that are actually S4) is also about the same calibre as a boltgun (guess based on the models) and that's closer to a 36-gauge than a 12-gauge I expect these S4 shotguns are rifled and have a lot more propellant in them than than a real shotgun.
Wut? You should realize that the larger the number, the smaller the bore of the weapon. Like a 10 gauge is much larger than a 20 gauge. It's based upon the size of the bore if a single round ball was that size and how many it would take to add up to a pound.
2016/11/18 19:52:59
Subject: How would a normal human being kill a Space Marine?
JohnHwangDD wrote: A Shotgun is S4. Lots of Americans have 12ga shotguns. And it's not like they can't get slugs for them.
Given that a Space Marine shotgun (the ones that are actually S4) is also about the same calibre as a boltgun (guess based on the models) and that's closer to a 36-gauge than a 12-gauge I expect these S4 shotguns are rifled and have a lot more propellant in them than than a real shotgun.
Wut? You should realize that the larger the number, the smaller the bore of the weapon. Like a 10 gauge is much larger than a 20 gauge. It's based upon the size of the bore if a single round ball was that size and how many it would take to add up to a pound.
Was working on old figures, I'd always quoted the boltgun as .50-caliber (at which point the closest thing on Wikipedia's table of equivalencies is a 36-gauge shotgun) but I double-checked and found that it's actually .75-caliber, at which point the .73-inch diameter of the 12-gauge is the closest real life equivalent.
So I suppose you're right, but for the wrong reason?
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Vaktathi wrote: Trying to base caliber off the models isnt a great way to do things, bolters come in a a very wide array of sizes and shapes for what are ostensibly the same units, and the scaling isnt realistic either (thats how we get guardmesn with proportions like those of 4 year olds).
We just dont know what caliber shotguns these shotguns are or what ammo they use. The same shotgun firing birdshot may be S3 but S4 when firing buckshot for instance, or IG shotguns may be .410 weenies and Astartes shotguns might be 12 gauges, we just dont really know, the universe doesnt give us much to work with.
I checked the bolters and the shotguns on the Deathwatch squad on my desk, operating on the assumption that weapons from the same kit would be about the same scale relative to each other, if nothing else.
For the curious if I were to attempt to assume the weapon is to scale with the model and use an arbitrarily chosen height estimate for the Space Marine (230cm, about 7ft7in) I get a barrel diameter of around five inches.
Which would mean Space Marines are actually walking around with intermediate-caliber naval guns.
I don't know if that's better or worse.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2016/11/18 20:03:13
JohnHwangDD wrote: A Shotgun is S4. Lots of Americans have 12ga shotguns. And it's not like they can't get slugs for them.
Given that a Space Marine shotgun (the ones that are actually S4) is also about the same calibre as a boltgun (guess based on the models) and that's closer to a 36-gauge than a 12-gauge I expect these S4 shotguns are rifled and have a lot more propellant in them than than a real shotgun.
Wut? You should realize that the larger the number, the smaller the bore of the weapon. Like a 10 gauge is much larger than a 20 gauge. It's based upon the size of the bore if a single round ball was that size and how many it would take to add up to a pound.
Was working on old figures, I'd always quoted the boltgun as .50-caliber (at which point the closest thing on Wikipedia's table of equivalencies is a 36-gauge shotgun) but I double-checked and found that it's actually .75-caliber, at which point the .73-inch diameter of the 12-gauge is the closest real life equivalent.
So I suppose you're right, but for the wrong reason?
No, he's 100% right. That is exactly how shotgun calibers are defined. A 12 ga shotgun has a larger barrel diameter than a 16 ga, which is larger than a 20 ga.
Where you're talking about a "36-gauge", I think you've gone off the rails. As far as I know, there's no such thing as a 36-gauge shotgun.
Matthew wrote: Picture this: You wake up in the middle of the night to a loud boom. You look out the window, and there's a Space Marine standing in the middle of the street, moving down everything that moves. He sees you, and starts walking to your house. Using your knowledge of the Warhammer universe, how would you kill him?
If I'm living in the 40k universe, easy. Armageddon M40 Pattern Autogun. Loaded with a 60 round box magazine of caseless HE or AP ammo that turns a modern Autogun into a mini-Bolter.
Because screw standard issue flashlights.
Proud Purveyor Of The Unconventional In 40k
2016/11/19 05:26:54
Subject: How would a normal human being kill a Space Marine?
JohnHwangDD wrote: A Shotgun is S4. Lots of Americans have 12ga shotguns. And it's not like they can't get slugs for them.
Given that a Space Marine shotgun (the ones that are actually S4) is also about the same calibre as a boltgun (guess based on the models) and that's closer to a 36-gauge than a 12-gauge I expect these S4 shotguns are rifled and have a lot more propellant in them than than a real shotgun.
Wut? You should realize that the larger the number, the smaller the bore of the weapon. Like a 10 gauge is much larger than a 20 gauge. It's based upon the size of the bore if a single round ball was that size and how many it would take to add up to a pound.
Was working on old figures, I'd always quoted the boltgun as .50-caliber (at which point the closest thing on Wikipedia's table of equivalencies is a 36-gauge shotgun) but I double-checked and found that it's actually .75-caliber, at which point the .73-inch diameter of the 12-gauge is the closest real life equivalent.
So I suppose you're right, but for the wrong reason?
No, he's 100% right. That is exactly how shotgun calibers are defined. A 12 ga shotgun has a larger barrel diameter than a 16 ga, which is larger than a 20 ga.
Where you're talking about a "36-gauge", I think you've gone off the rails. As far as I know, there's no such thing as a 36-gauge shotgun.
a boltgun fires .50 caliber armor penetrating explosive rocket projectiles. A 12 gauge slug is exactly 1/2" in diameter which is exactly .50 caliber. There is no such thing as a 36 gauge, and if there was it would be for shooting tweety birds. A 28g is considered a gentleman's shotgun for small gallinaceous birds. A .410 a child/experts weapon for hunting.
The term “gauge” is an old one. It refers to the measure of the bore diameter of the shotgun. With the exception of the .410-bore, which is not a gauge at all (it’s actually a caliber) but often mistakenly called one, the gauge number is equal to the number of lead balls of that bore diameter that add up to weigh one pound. For example, 12-gauge, the most common shotgun gauge today, is the diameter of a ball of lead weighing 1/12-pound of lead, while a 20-gauge is the diameter of a lead ball weighing 1/20-pound of lead.
It’s not hard to see that it takes more lead balls in 20-gauge to equal a pound than it does a 12-gauge, thus, the 20-gauge bore diameter is smaller than a 12-gauge. The common lineup of gauges made today (from smallest to largest) are .410-bore (again, not actually a gauge, but a common shotgun chambering), 28-gauge, 20-gauge, 16-gauge, 12-gauge and 10 gauge. (Shotguns of long ago also included the mammoth 8-gauge and 4-gauge and the smaller 24-gauge and 32-gauge, but these are all collectors’ items now.)
The smaller gauges are generally used for clay target shooting and hunting smaller birds and game animals, while the larger gauges are commonly employed for clay target games, personal defense and for hunting the larger game species like turkey and deer.
This message was edited 4 times. Last update was at 2016/11/19 05:37:16
2016/11/19 12:30:17
Subject: How would a normal human being kill a Space Marine?
I may have not communicated myself clearly enough. I'm aware of how shotgun gauges work. I was under the impression that a boltgun had a barrel diameter of .5 inches. According to the table of shotgun gauges on Wikipedia a 12-gauge shotgun is listed as having a barrel diameter of .73 inches, and when I went down the table to find the gauge with a barrel diameter of 0.5 inches it claimed there was something called a 36-gauge that did. I'm also aware that a 36-gauge is probably a rather uncommon weapon used for shooting tweety birds if at all.
In double-checking the barrel diameter of a boltgun I found it's actually .75 inches and thus the Space Marines' shotguns are quite close to a 12-gauge.
AnomanderRake wrote: I may have not communicated myself clearly enough. I'm aware of how shotgun gauges work. I was under the impression that a boltgun had a barrel diameter of .5 inches. According to the table of shotgun gauges on Wikipedia a 12-gauge shotgun is listed as having a barrel diameter of .73 inches, and when I went down the table to find the gauge with a barrel diameter of 0.5 inches it claimed there was something called a 36-gauge that did. I'm also aware that a 36-gauge is probably a rather uncommon weapon used for shooting tweety birds if at all.
In double-checking the barrel diameter of a boltgun I found it's actually .75 inches and thus the Space Marines' shotguns are quite close to a 12-gauge.
Some of the power fantasies going on here are better than any plot armour
TT ≠ Lore for starters. I suppose we'll be taking movement and shooting in turns too?
Also assuming the biology or technology cannot even work due to our current limited understanding of the universe is just a bit, narrow minded. Imagine just taking something like an Apache gunship to any battle more than 200 years ago, then up the scale by a few factors.
2016/11/20 06:10:24
Subject: Re:How would a normal human being kill a Space Marine?
TT ≠ Lore for starters. I suppose we'll be taking movement and shooting in turns too?
Also assuming the biology or technology cannot even work due to our current limited understanding of the universe is just a bit, narrow minded. Imagine just taking something like an Apache gunship to any battle more than 200 years ago, then up the scale by a few factors.
The problem is that half the stuff are things we can do and have tried and they just don't work for very fundamental physics reasons (as opposed to tech level issues) or logistical concerns. A lot of 40k stuff isn't any more advanced than what was available decades ago. Stuff we have in the modern world blows away what any 40k faction is capable of. 40k really isn't so much a scifi universe as a Fantasy universe with a scifi skin, which leads to a lot more reality breaks when compared with the real world.
IRON WITHIN, IRON WITHOUT.
New Heavy Gear Log! Also...Grey Knights! The correct pronunciation is Imperial Guard and Stormtroopers, "Astra Militarum" and "Tempestus Scions" are something you'll find at Hogwarts.
2016/11/20 16:44:07
Subject: Re:How would a normal human being kill a Space Marine?
TT ≠ Lore for starters. I suppose we'll be taking movement and shooting in turns too?
Also assuming the biology or technology cannot even work due to our current limited understanding of the universe is just a bit, narrow minded. Imagine just taking something like an Apache gunship to any battle more than 200 years ago, then up the scale by a few factors.
The problem is that half the stuff are things we can do and have tried and they just don't work for very fundamental physics reasons (as opposed to tech level issues) or logistical concerns. A lot of 40k stuff isn't any more advanced than what was available decades ago. Stuff we have in the modern world blows away what any 40k faction is capable of. 40k really isn't so much a scifi universe as a Fantasy universe with a scifi skin, which leads to a lot more reality breaks when compared with the real world.
Isn't that more of a problem of outdated fluff? Every game release I've played and every novel I've read over the past 10 years has demonstrations of their biological and technological strength is in excess of anything we have today. Then there are poor fluff examples like the Space Marine film which is due to poor directing and a very limited animation budget. 40K has been steadily moving toward sci-fi more than fantasy over the years which is why it has managed to keep afloat.
2016/11/20 18:21:58
Subject: Re:How would a normal human being kill a Space Marine?
TT ≠ Lore for starters. I suppose we'll be taking movement and shooting in turns too?
Also assuming the biology or technology cannot even work due to our current limited understanding of the universe is just a bit, narrow minded. Imagine just taking something like an Apache gunship to any battle more than 200 years ago, then up the scale by a few factors.
The problem is that half the stuff are things we can do and have tried and they just don't work for very fundamental physics reasons (as opposed to tech level issues) or logistical concerns. A lot of 40k stuff isn't any more advanced than what was available decades ago. Stuff we have in the modern world blows away what any 40k faction is capable of. 40k really isn't so much a scifi universe as a Fantasy universe with a scifi skin, which leads to a lot more reality breaks when compared with the real world.
Isn't that more of a problem of outdated fluff? Every game release I've played and every novel I've read over the past 10 years has demonstrations of their biological and technological strength is in excess of anything we have today. Then there are poor fluff examples like the Space Marine film which is due to poor directing and a very limited animation budget. 40K has been steadily moving toward sci-fi more than fantasy over the years which is why it has managed to keep afloat.
It's still pretty Fantasy-ish, many basic 40k weapons that are the staple of Imperial armies like missile launcher, mortars, autocannons, Assault Cannons, Flamers, etc have direct real world equivalents that we can compare to, other stuff like the Boltgun suffers because of basic physics issues, "RPG" guns like Bolters are incredibly inaccurate because the rocket motor is still only starting accelerating (they're also very light and have effectively zero recoil as a result) at the muzzle and don't reach max velocity until like 30ft or more beyond the muzzle, and are hence wildly inaccurate (like...it's hard to hit a person 100 feet away inaccurate), and adding booster charge to combat that makes the rocket engine pointless because it's easier and more effective to just make it a conventional projectile at that point.
Most 40k stuff is either some sort of jumped-up Fantasy analogy (e.g. anything running around with a sword, the entire Grey Knight line, actual Daemons, etc) or is built around a WW1/WW2 combat paradigm. Nothing 40k has resembles anything like modern detection and C3 systems, 40k has no artillery that can match the modern worlds artillery capabilities in terms of landing shells within a couple meters of a target from dozens of miles away within a couple minutes of the call-in with a synchronized barrage, or a tank that can move at highway speeds and engage targets at 2km+ distance with an almost 100% hit rate while both tank and target are moving at highway speeds at night and engaging 10 targets in a minute, or aircraft that engage each other from dozens or hundreds of miles away with beyond-visual-range missile weapons through detection data fed to them by an AWACS aircraft (while 40k air-to-air combat is pretty much exclusively WW2 dogfight style engagements with every faction). Stuff like that.
A lot of the newer stuff coming out is far more Steampunk than really Scifi (e.g. the Mechanicus), and that's really kind of where 40k fares best, but it's still not really like hard scifi stuff.
IRON WITHIN, IRON WITHOUT.
New Heavy Gear Log! Also...Grey Knights! The correct pronunciation is Imperial Guard and Stormtroopers, "Astra Militarum" and "Tempestus Scions" are something you'll find at Hogwarts.
2016/11/21 06:59:43
Subject: Re:How would a normal human being kill a Space Marine?
Personally, I think a normal human being would kill a superhuman whose body armor is like a tank by getting the hell out of there and letting their country's military solve the problem with their vast array of anti-tank weapons.
2016/11/21 23:15:40
Subject: How would a normal human being kill a Space Marine?
The most deadly weapon known to Space Marines according to the Deathwatch (RPG) Core rules? Stairs. Since the armor class doesn't negate falling damage. A simple flight of stairs forces the players to make numerous checks because of their unwieldly power armor and even failing one of them and falling down a flight of stairs can result in half of your health in damage.
If your falling heights greater than a stairwell your more or less automatically dead. We actually lost one player in Terminator armor to a flight of stairs. No joke. May the Emperor protect his soul.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2016/11/21 23:18:46
2016/11/22 00:54:46
Subject: How would a normal human being kill a Space Marine?
Gamgee wrote: The most deadly weapon known to Space Marines according to the Deathwatch (RPG) Core rules? Stairs. Since the armor class doesn't negate falling damage. A simple flight of stairs forces the players to make numerous checks because of their unwieldly power armor and even failing one of them and falling down a flight of stairs can result in half of your health in damage.
If your falling heights greater than a stairwell your more or less automatically dead. We actually lost one player in Terminator armor to a flight of stairs. No joke. May the Emperor protect his soul.
The size of the boots are impractical for household stairs. They'd have to be at a slant to fit, or be on their tip-toes.
That Space Marine's not gonna die from falling down stairs. He's gonna die because if he goes down into the basement he can't get out again.
Oh, and the stairs might not take the weight of the armor.
Space Marines, the most elite fighting force of the galaxy, permanently defeated and now doomed to a slow death by starvation by the standard design of 20th century homes. And no one was even home.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2016/11/22 01:00:36
2016/11/22 01:09:46
Subject: Re:How would a normal human being kill a Space Marine?
-- $k 
-- 9k 
-- 6k 
-- 4k 
-- 
good one! Just like Daleks! That why he need jump pack...
