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HE didn't do that. Any of us with that machine could do exactly the same work he did. There was nothing that he did besides own it.
Yes. Batman Forever had Batman investigating and tracking down Riddler and Two Face.
I don't have enough memory of the Freeze/Poison Ivy/Bane one to say much there. I am not in any way arguing that those are good movies. Only that they are not worse Batmen and that by their nature of at least doing SOME of the core Batmen things they are in fact better Batmen.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/08/27 17:43:51
These are my opinions. This is how I feel. Others may feel differently. This needs to be stated for some reason.
Lance845 wrote: HE didn't do that. Any of us with that machine could do exactly the same work he did. There was nothing that he did besides own it.
Yes. Batman Forever had Batman investigating and tracking down Riddler and Two Face.
I don't have enough memory of the Freeze/Poison Ivy/Bane one to say much there. I am not in any way arguing that those are good movies. Only that they are not worse Batmen and that by their nature of at least doing SOME of the core Batmen things they are in fact better Batmen.
I can agree with that perspective. Bale is definitely not a good Batman so I can see how he would be less like the character than Kilmer and Clooney despite the difference in movie quality.
The only way we can ever solve anything is to look in the mirror and find no enemy
I dunno. I have a hard time pointing to anyone's take on Batman (or the Joker) and saying 'that's not it'. There's 80+ years of history with extremely campy TV shows and at one end of the spectrum and dark, brutal takes at the other. And sometimes the character is solo, sometimes the Bat-family is around, and sometimes he's hanging with the JL, and those contexts matter a lot for how the character is portrayed.
Nolan's version was rolled up in post 9/11 commentary, which doesn't really lend itself to cracking cases. Similar thing with Batfleck, since we saw that version mostly dealing with alien threats. Batman never broke out the crime lab much in his JL adventures through the decades. I don't think that made him any less Batman, however.
gorgon wrote: I dunno. I have a hard time pointing to anyone's take on Batman (or the Joker) and saying 'that's not it'. There's 80+ years of history with extremely campy TV shows and at one end of the spectrum and dark, brutal takes at the other. And sometimes the character is solo, sometimes the Bat-family is around, and sometimes he's hanging with the JL, and those contexts matter a lot for how the character is portrayed.
Nolan's version was rolled up in post 9/11 commentary, which doesn't really lend itself to cracking cases. Similar thing with Batfleck, since we saw that version mostly dealing with alien threats. Batman never broke out the crime lab much in his JL adventures through the decades. I don't think that made him any less Batman, however.
There is 80+ years of history but Batmans whole 80+ years is tied up in a title called Detective Comics for which he spent most of his existence as the main character and that was his main ongoing series. Yes, Batman has been a lot of things over the years in a lot of versions. But he has always been a detective at his core.
These are my opinions. This is how I feel. Others may feel differently. This needs to be stated for some reason.
Oh, I get how a character can feel 'off'. Hell, I'm arguing that in the other thread, lol. TO ME, Batman is an especially mutable character and so that's a hill I'm less inclined to die on.
And don't get me wrong...gonna love me some noir detective Batman. Very excited for it.
Lance845 wrote: But he has always been a detective at his core.
When I think of Batman I think about:
- Gadgets. Stupid gadgets or edgy gadgets. Bat-shark-repellant or battarangs
- Fighting in a rubber suit. Lots of fistfights in a rubber suit.
- Weird enemies.
- Wearing a cape.
I don't think about :
- Carefully trying to reconstruct a crime scene.
- Cross-referencing people's account of events and checking their alibis.
- Being hired by a vamp to find who killed her husband.
"Our fantasy settings are grim and dark, but that is not a reflection of who we are or how we feel the real world should be. [...] We will continue to diversify the cast of characters we portray [...] so everyone can find representation and heroes they can relate to. [...] If [you don't feel the same way], you will not be missed"
https://twitter.com/WarComTeam/status/1268665798467432449/photo/1
Lance845 wrote: But he has always been a detective at his core.
When I think of Batman I think about:
- Gadgets. Stupid gadgets or edgy gadgets. Bat-shark-repellant or battarangs
- Fighting in a rubber suit. Lots of fistfights in a rubber suit.
- Weird enemies.
- Wearing a cape.
I don't think about :
- Carefully trying to reconstruct a crime scene.
- Cross-referencing people's account of events and checking their alibis.
- Being hired by a vamp to find who killed her husband.
Is it weird that reading this list I suddenly thought of a spin off series, Batman: Dark Actuary. It's just batman in a cave. People come down the elevator, get super weirded out, and then Batman starts talking about their risk assessments in that super gruff Batman voice before recommending them a good Batsurance policy.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/08/31 15:24:15
Lance845 wrote: But he has always been a detective at his core.
When I think of Batman I think about:
- Gadgets. Stupid gadgets or edgy gadgets. Bat-shark-repellant or battarangs
- Fighting in a rubber suit. Lots of fistfights in a rubber suit.
- Weird enemies.
- Wearing a cape.
I don't think about :
- Carefully trying to reconstruct a crime scene.
- Cross-referencing people's account of events and checking their alibis.
- Being hired by a vamp to find who killed her husband.
That weird. Because you mostly describe the adam west batman (sans rubber) who has a direct line to the police who call him in to investigate crimes and solve them. Adam West was basically exclusively a detective with every other character a total idiot who needed batman to do a parlor scene every episode explaining how he figured out what happened and who done it.
These are my opinions. This is how I feel. Others may feel differently. This needs to be stated for some reason.
This one:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HsWlgInAdu0 isn't out yet but has rubber, fistfight, weird enemies, wearing a cape in the trailer. And for gadgets, we have at least the batmobile and a grappling hook ¯\_(ツ)_/¯.
"Our fantasy settings are grim and dark, but that is not a reflection of who we are or how we feel the real world should be. [...] We will continue to diversify the cast of characters we portray [...] so everyone can find representation and heroes they can relate to. [...] If [you don't feel the same way], you will not be missed"
https://twitter.com/WarComTeam/status/1268665798467432449/photo/1
Yes I know it's the name of the original comic. I also know it is not what Batman is known for, and it's not what he is doing in most pieces of media.
Did you notice that dressing like a bat doesn't help you investigating? And that the in-comic explanation about why Batman dresses like a bat is never about investigation, almost always about helping him while he does his vigilante street violence punching of people in the face thing? I mean, unless you believe that "Punching people in the face and then asking them questions" is what being a detective is about, because this is the closest thing to detective work that he does most of the time.
I don't think I've seen or heard of any piece of Batman media where Batman doesn't fight, but does investigate. I have seen plenty where he does fight, but doesn't investigate. In fact, I don't think any of the Batman video games ever emphasized the investigation part. Most of them remove it altogether.
Maybe the one video game that would be the closest to detective Batman is the Punisher game, I guess, with the mechanism to torture interrogate people to get more information. But it's not a Batman video game so it doesn't count .
"Our fantasy settings are grim and dark, but that is not a reflection of who we are or how we feel the real world should be. [...] We will continue to diversify the cast of characters we portray [...] so everyone can find representation and heroes they can relate to. [...] If [you don't feel the same way], you will not be missed"
https://twitter.com/WarComTeam/status/1268665798467432449/photo/1
The first Tell Tale Batman game had investigation parts of the story, though fairly rudimentary as it was more about pushing the story forward than being a puzzle game.
I don't recall much detective work in Arkham Asylum or Arkham City. Those are the only two I played through so no opinion on the others.
Amidst the mists and coldest frosts he thrusts his fists against the posts and still insists he sees the ghosts.
I don't think any of the Batman video games ever emphasized the investigation part
Played the PS4 3d version a bit - lots of investigation
I AM A MARINE PLAYER
"Unimaginably ancient xenos artefact somewhere on the planet, hive fleet poised above our heads, hidden 'stealer broods making an early start....and now a bloody Chaos cult crawling out of the woodwork just in case we were bored. Welcome to my world, Ciaphas."
Inquisitor Amberley Vail, Ordo Xenos
"I will admit that some Primachs like Russ or Horus could have a chance against an unarmed 12 year old novice but, a full Battle Sister??!! One to one? In close combat? Perhaps three Primarchs fighting together... but just one Primarch?" da001
The Arkham games do play about with it a little. - Of course there's the 'Detective Mode' mechanic, but more directly, there's various things, particularly in Arkham Knight when you do the Crime Scene Reconstructions.
But yes, I agree with the primary point of, the majority of Batman media outside of the comics do not lean too heavily into the Detecting aspect of his character. - There's some moments here and there (Batman '89 he investigates the Smilex gas components, BVS the mystery of The Portuguese) but overall it's not really the primary portrayed aspect.
So Matt Reeves leaning into it some more for 'The Batman' would really be quite a fresh take on it.
Admittedly, I've kinda lost track of the conversation of what relevance this has to The Snyder Cut though...
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/09/03 11:50:39
Was the much talked about Batman vs Superman Snyder cut ever released? Did it make a difference to how bad that film was?
FWIW I didn't ever watch it in the cinema, my first (and only)exposure to the movie was the Extended (Director's, Snyder, whatever) on home media, and on that basis I felt the extreme criticism it had received was unwarranted.
By comparison I almost gave up watching Justice League, and found the whole movie felt disjointed and unfinished, so I'm fairly sure it isn't exclusively a question of my taste.
So, yes, probably.
I watched justice league on a plane to france, so there was a little slider option for most of the major blockbuster movies to be voiced in either french or english. I thought the Justice League movie I'd heard was terrible would be incredibly hilarious in french with english subtitles, and made the executive decision to believe that that version I had watched was in fact "the snyder cut" people were talking about on the internet.
I learned within fifteen seconds, when the camera cut to the back of Henry Caville, and a voice said
"Monsieur Super-Homme! Monsieur Super-Homme!"
and he turned around, CGI upper lip mustache replacement quivering suggestively as it would do throughout the film, and said something in french totally disjointed from the movement of his uncanny valley inducing lips that I was COMPLETELY CORRECT and I had found the ideal, final, ultimate version of this movie.
Also, in the french version they show the montage of places that are sad that superman is dead, and like 2/3rds of them are shots of notable locations in france, which I cannot imagine was the original intent but I like better because it implies that france in particular was just a really really big fan of superman.
"Got you, Yugi! Your Rubric Marines can't fall back because I have declared the tertiary kaptaris ka'tah stance two, after the secondary dacatarai ka'tah last turn!"
"So you think, Kaiba! I declared my Thousand Sons the cult of Duplicity, which means all my psykers have access to the Sorcerous Facade power! Furthermore I will spend 8 Cabal Points to invoke Cabbalistic Focus, causing the rubrics to appear behind your custodes! The Vengeance for the Wronged and Sorcerous Fullisade stratagems along with the Malefic Maelstrom infernal pact evoked earlier in the command phase allows me to double their firepower, letting me wound on 2s and 3s!"
"you think it is you who has gotten me, yugi, but it is I who have gotten you! I declare the ever-vigilant stratagem to attack your rubrics with my custodes' ranged weapons, which with the new codex are now DAMAGE 2!!"
"...which leads you straight into my trap, Kaiba, you see I now declare the stratagem Implacable Automata, reducing all damage from your attacks by 1 and triggering my All is Dust special rule!"
Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote: I don't think I've seen or heard of any piece of Batman media where Batman doesn't fight, but does investigate. I have seen plenty where he does fight, but doesn't investigate. In fact, I don't think any of the Batman video games ever emphasized the investigation part. Most of them remove it altogether.
Maybe the one video game that would be the closest to detective Batman is the Punisher game, I guess, with the mechanism to torture interrogate people to get more information. But it's not a Batman video game so it doesn't count .
Maybe go actually read some of the source material? You know, the bulk of the IP?
Also Batman: TAS, generally considered to be the greatest of all bat media with Conroy being THE batman, has MANY scenes of batman collecting samples and evidence and then running them through the bat computer. Or looking over photos and newspapers, finding links, and figuring out crimes and suspects.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/09/03 14:48:41
These are my opinions. This is how I feel. Others may feel differently. This needs to be stated for some reason.
I too am in the "Batman has been around so long, and is super mutable; so whatever take is done on him is largely fine with me" camp - but that being said, I'd also like to see more detecting.
The only Batmen that I thought were aggressively bad were the George Clooney and Val Kilmer ones. I think the iconic Batman for me is probably TAS.
Also, not sure if this got covered - I don't think I saw it, skimming the thread - but the movie is having a production delay; Robert Pattinson caught the 'rona.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/09/04 01:09:58
lord_blackfang wrote: Respect to the guy who subscribed just to post a massive ASCII dong in the chat and immediately get banned.
Flinty wrote: The benefit of slate is that its.actually a.rock with rock like properties. The downside is that it's a rock
Lance845 wrote: That alternate vision mode in all the arkham games is called detective vision.
And it was primarily used to more efficiently take out bad guys.
But also to identify things. Thats some evidence. That can be broken. That is a threat. That is a riddler goon in disguise. And the way it enabled you to more efficently take out the bad guys was giving you information. These guys are armed. This guy is scared. Etc etc...
These are my opinions. This is how I feel. Others may feel differently. This needs to be stated for some reason.
Compel wrote: So Matt Reeves leaning into it some more for 'The Batman' would really be quite a fresh take on it.
Agreed.
the_scotsman wrote: I learned within fifteen seconds, when the camera cut to the back of Henry Caville, and a voice said
"Monsieur Super-Homme! Monsieur Super-Homme!"
That's a bad automated translation .
gorgon wrote: Maybe go actually read some of the source material? You know, the bulk of the IP?
I read the one where he fights the joker and stuff. It wasn't really good to be honest. And there was no investigating in that one. But there was the joker. Do you think I should read the one where he fights the Darkseid to find the investigating? Or maybe the one with the Spiderman?
I have not read the one with the Judge Dredd but I think the Judge Dredd do more of investigating. Because he is a cop.
Lance845 wrote: But also to identify things. Thats some evidence. That can be broken. That is a threat. That is a riddler goon in disguise. And the way it enabled you to more efficently take out the bad guys was giving you information. These guys are armed. This guy is scared. Etc etc...
Basically like the "instinct" thing, or whatever they call it, in the Tomb Raider games, right?
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/09/04 10:21:54
"Our fantasy settings are grim and dark, but that is not a reflection of who we are or how we feel the real world should be. [...] We will continue to diversify the cast of characters we portray [...] so everyone can find representation and heroes they can relate to. [...] If [you don't feel the same way], you will not be missed"
https://twitter.com/WarComTeam/status/1268665798467432449/photo/1
gorgon wrote: Maybe go actually read some of the source material? You know, the bulk of the IP?
I read the one where he fights the joker and stuff. It wasn't really good to be honest. And there was no investigating in that one. But there was the joker.
Do you think I should read the one where he fights the Darkseid to find the investigating? Or maybe the one with the Spiderman?
I have not read the one with the Judge Dredd but I think the Judge Dredd do more of investigating. Because he is a cop.
If by the one with Darkseid you mean FInal Crisis then you are talking about the one where Batman is investigating who shot Orion which is the event that kicked off the whole thing.
Lance845 wrote: But also to identify things. Thats some evidence. That can be broken. That is a threat. That is a riddler goon in disguise. And the way it enabled you to more efficently take out the bad guys was giving you information. These guys are armed. This guy is scared. Etc etc...
Basically like the "instinct" thing, or whatever they call it, in the Tomb Raider games, right?
Yeah. Arkham really did that kind of thing in it's modern incarnation first. Then a bunch of other games (Witcher 3 and Tomb Raider) picked up on the mechanic.
These are my opinions. This is how I feel. Others may feel differently. This needs to be stated for some reason.
Lance845 wrote: If by the one with Darkseid you mean FInal Crisis then you are talking about the one where Batman is investigating who shot Orion which is the event that kicked off the whole thing.
I don't know, is it the one with the grey guy (not Christian) who is from the planet apocalypse and shoot lasers from his eye because he is a god? And he is looking for an equation, but like, with violence instead of using a white board like most people working on equations do? I think it's this one.
Is Batman investigating the god good? I tried to search Final Crisis and apparently it's about Batman using a god-killing bullet that send him in the past but people think he is dead when in fact he is tracked by a thing that will kill everyone when he is done investigating the cavemen? Sounded a bit confusing.
Would you recommend that one to someone who likes story about detectives and investigation?
"Our fantasy settings are grim and dark, but that is not a reflection of who we are or how we feel the real world should be. [...] We will continue to diversify the cast of characters we portray [...] so everyone can find representation and heroes they can relate to. [...] If [you don't feel the same way], you will not be missed"
https://twitter.com/WarComTeam/status/1268665798467432449/photo/1
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