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Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut





the_scotsman wrote:
Cynista wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
That's the opposite of good game design LMAO. So should the durable infantry unit for Eldar, Wraithguard, be not durable at all because of the supposed glass cannon trope? Should Skull Cannons just be straight garbage because Daemons don't shoot?

You are being ridiculous and arguing in bad faith. Nobody has claimed Wraithguard should "not be durable at all" or that Kroot should be bad. You know this, so stop erecting weird strawman arguments. I'm not here for it

And I doubt you know the first thing about game design.


You literally did say, twice, that they should be worse FOR THE POINTS.

That's bad game design - I'm sorry. If you want to make a particular style of play an army's strong suit, all you need to do is not provide particular tools, or provide limited tools, that perform a different playstyle.

making them purposefully worse for the points than other armies' tools who do have that identity is a fundamentally stupid move, because you're simply ensuring those units never see the tabletop. Guard remain fundamentally a shooting-focused army even when Bullgryns are effective for their points, because most of the datasheets, abilities, stratagems, auras, etc within the army focus on shooting rather than melee. Similarly, they can be 'not the best psyker faction' simply by limiting guard psykers to a fairly basic-tier psyker mastery level compared to factions like Thousand Sons and Eldar. there's no NEED for primaris psykers to be purposefully overcosted to discourage their use - they're simply limited in what they can do, and that can hold true for kroot.

If the biggest thing Tau can bring to the table for a melee unit is the equivalent of a spawn or clawed fiend in the Krootox, then Tau will remain a shooting army because there aren't melee options present to fulfil the roles necessary to make a functioning army.


Well I don't know what they mean but I can say I meant that Tau wouldn't or perhaps shouldn't be a melee focused force. I do think Kroot should be a viable option just not a great CC unit. Much like your bringing up the Bullgryn. they are effective but don't and won't turn a guard army into a CC force.

It's not bad that the Tau remain a shooting army, any more than its bad demons remain a CC focused army. The trick is and has been make all aspects of the game viable and all units feel like real choices, GW does this poorly, always has and always will. Though if you were thinking to make a CC themed force, more than likely you wouldn't think an army with one or two useful CC units, you'd focus on a force that builds on its strength in that department. Specialized isn't a bad thing, the games design sometimes can be a very bad thing however when making those focused armies.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Spoletta wrote:
the_scotsman wrote:
Rough Riders do not see play.




They are just one of the best units in the game and spammed at competitive level.


Rough riders don't see play for more reasons than bad design, lets be real here. No easy to get models is one thing, being in legends is another. I'd say if they got the love that Death riders do people would indeed take them, as they are actually useful.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/04/10 03:03:55


 
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut




NE Ohio, USA

the_scotsman wrote:

I'm talking about Rough Riders, the now legends unit that was the worst unit in the game like 5 editions running.


Well no gak Rough Riders don't see play genius. All you people do is look at tourney results. Most of wich apparently don't allow Legends units. Hard to see things being used when you look at an environment where they're not even allowed to be played....
And then the poison that's the tourney standard filters down into casual play and you have people suddenly shunning models that were 100% fine yesterday and still have valid 9e rules.
I've had the the following conversation, or variations of, in both 40k & Sigmar numerous times since Legends came to be"
"I can't use my _____ anymore. :("
"Why not?"
"It was moved to Legends"
"But it still has valid rules?"
"Yeah. But Legends isn't allowed in {fill in tourney of your choice}."
"?? I wasn't aware this game was a tourney...."
   
Made in us
Steady Space Marine Vet Sergeant




San Jose, CA

ccs wrote:
the_scotsman wrote:

I'm talking about Rough Riders, the now legends unit that was the worst unit in the game like 5 editions running.


Well no gak Rough Riders don't see play genius. All you people do is look at tourney results. Most of wich apparently don't allow Legends units. Hard to see things being used when you look at an environment where they're not even allowed to be played....
And then the poison that's the tourney standard filters down into casual play and you have people suddenly shunning models that were 100% fine yesterday and still have valid 9e rules.
I've had the the following conversation, or variations of, in both 40k & Sigmar numerous times since Legends came to be"
"I can't use my _____ anymore. :("
"Why not?"
"It was moved to Legends"
"But it still has valid rules?"
"Yeah. But Legends isn't allowed in {fill in tourney of your choice}."
"?? I wasn't aware this game was a tourney...."

The bold part is so fething true it hurts and should be considered the lowest standard there.
Underlined for best statement yet.
   
Made in us
Drop Trooper with Demo Charge





To be fair, getting Legends'd means the rules are only still valid if:
1) GW sticks to what they've said re: 8e/9e being a "living edition" (already dubious, not least because I can't recall if that was ever explicitly stated or not )
2) Changes to the base rules of the game not breaking a Legends'd unit (eg. if Unit A can do a special move in the Psychic Phase and 10e does away with the Psychic Phase, or if Unit B gets a bonus vs [KROOT] but the next Tau dex changes [KROOT] to [CROAKFACE GRIBBLECHIN])
3) GW sticks to what they've said re: Legends simply being left alone instead of eventually deleted.
GW certainly aren't the worst offenders when it comes to suddenly and unexpectedly dropping a plan for something completely different, but even outside of "all games are tourney prep" I wouldn't blame someone for being leery of continuing to use a unit once it goes to Legends.
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut





We had a whole huge debate on if GW doing legends was good or bad, I still firmly think it was just a kiss of death and not a benevolent act on their part.

That said, I'd say someone was kind of an apricot sucking banana face if they refused to play against a legends unit.

If its a tournament then they can be the bad guys, I'm not about to be the guy who denies someone a loved unit, especially not when the current models can be beyond broke as is.

This is all way off topic though so I hope we get more news soon.
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut




Is there anything in legends that doesn't totally suck at this point? If there's anything still overpowered or game-breaking I can see how someone wouldn't want to play against it, but if it's the normal terrible junk, if someone wants to gimp themselves by taking it, that's fine by me.
   
Made in us
Second Story Man




Astonished of Heck

Who knows, there may come a decision to restore some of those Legends models. It's not like we've seen some models be skipped by a codex only to return later down the years.

Are you a Wolf, a Sheep, or a Hound?
Megavolt wrote:They called me crazy…they called me insane…THEY CALLED ME LOONEY!! and boy, were they right.
 
   
Made in us
Decrepit Dakkanaut




 AngryAngel80 wrote:
We had a whole huge debate on if GW doing legends was good or bad, I still firmly think it was just a kiss of death and not a benevolent act on their part.

That said, I'd say someone was kind of an apricot sucking banana face if they refused to play against a legends unit.

If its a tournament then they can be the bad guys, I'm not about to be the guy who denies someone a loved unit, especially not when the current models can be beyond broke as is.

This is all way off topic though so I hope we get more news soon.

Sounds like GW should update that unit's rules then instead of the asinine patterns they've created on top of the fact that some here still defend them on it or blame the players instead.

CaptainStabby wrote:
If Tyberos falls and needs to catch himself it's because the ground needed killing.

 jy2 wrote:
BTW, I can't wait to run Double-D-thirsters! Man, just thinking about it gets me Khorney.

 vipoid wrote:
Indeed - what sort of bastard would want to use their codex?

 MarsNZ wrote:
ITT: SoB players upset that they're receiving the same condescending treatment that they've doled out in every CSM thread ever.
 
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut





Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
 AngryAngel80 wrote:
We had a whole huge debate on if GW doing legends was good or bad, I still firmly think it was just a kiss of death and not a benevolent act on their part.

That said, I'd say someone was kind of an apricot sucking banana face if they refused to play against a legends unit.

If its a tournament then they can be the bad guys, I'm not about to be the guy who denies someone a loved unit, especially not when the current models can be beyond broke as is.

This is all way off topic though so I hope we get more news soon.

Sounds like GW should update that unit's rules then instead of the asinine patterns they've created on top of the fact that some here still defend them on it or blame the players instead.


As much as we can disagree on other things, on this I agree with you 100%. This is entirely a GW sucks issue that they should make better and people shouldn't defend them over it but we both know as sure as the sun will be in the sky tomorrow that people will defend GW until the end for everything.
   
Made in ca
Longtime Dakkanaut





To play devil's advocate though, should GW keep updating rules for units they no longer make?

Should GW be forced to continue making models available in order to justify continuing to update the rules?

And if so, at what point does that interfere with their ability to produce, store and sell other models?

Again, I get it- if you have a model you love, and it goes to Legends, and your preferred way to play the game is at a tournament that doesn't allow it, that hurts. I do miss Kyrinov and Jacobus, and a part of me wishes GW had kept them. But if they had, would it have been at the expense of Taddeus the Purifier, Pious Vorne and Gotfett de Montbard?

We react to that which hurts us, and it often prevents us from seeing the big picture. It really is a Kobayishi Maru for GW; if they were still forced to manufacture and update rules for every unit they've produced since 1987 because somebody loves it, but STILL come up with enough new models to keep the rest of us happy too?

I mean, is that really possible?

And then, if you love YOUR model enough, you'll come up with reasons why they should keep YOUR model manufactured and supported, but somebody else's model could be cut to make room for new stuff, right?

So as GW, how do you win this fight. Honestly, if you think you've got a way to keep a greater number of people happy than Legends, throw it on the table. Maybe there is a solution that's better and I just can't see it.

But to go back to Kyrinov and Jacobus, here are the options:

1: Status quo; stop making the models, but give them Legends so that anyone who already has them can keep using them.

2: Keep updating rules for them, but not make them... So then someone who likes the rules either has to convert or proxy.

3: Release a new plastic Jacobus and Kyrinov with new rules; and I have to admit... This sounds tempting. But would it cost me the Palatine? Or the Paragon? Or the Castigator? I mean, are the Admech players out there really going to be okay if I get all four of the units previewed PLUS Jacobus and Kyrinov? CWE players certainly aren't going to be happy about that (even if it turns out that we DO get a complete refresh in December, it sure isn't going to stop us from bitching about it until then... And I'd probably be one of the ones doing the bitching).

4. Stop making the models AND not bother giving us Legends; if you've got Kyrinov or Jacobus, play them as Counts as Missionaries (or counts as Preachers or counts as Taddeus the Purifier).

Those are they only four options I see. All of them suck. How do you beat the Kobayashi Maru?

   
Made in us
Drop Trooper with Demo Charge





PenitentJake wrote:
2: Keep updating rules for them, but not make them... So then someone who likes the rules either has to convert or proxy.

This one. GW used to be a lot more friendly to conversions/proxying. That's an attitude that they should go back to, Chapterhouse be damned (I understand that they need to worry about their IP, but if they aren't going to be making a mini, the least GW can do is not be gakheads to their customers about it).

PenitentJake wrote:
All of them suck.

Incorrect. I don't want to gatekeep people who want to play 40k but don't want to get into conversions, but this is a hobby with a long and consistent history of allowing for such things. If someone puts down a cardboard cutout for a mini that isn't being made (legitimately or not), I'm not going to have much trouble with it (so long as we agree on it's "size" for LoS purposes), same as I wouldn't if someone scratch-built that mini from plasticard or sourced it from eBay/"eBay".

Edit: They could consider having a "Legendarium" as part of the codex cycle (realistically, probably "Legendarium - Imperium", "Legendarium - Chaos", "Legendarium - Xenos" or "Legendarium - Xenos I/Legendarium - Xenos II") to accomplish this. I'm not particularly a fan of more codices at this point, but it would be an option if it was decided (for whatever reason) to not include them as a short list in the back of the relevant codex.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2021/04/11 20:53:22


 
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut




Why would GW make up-to-date rules for models it doesn't make any more? GW's objective is to make profits for itself, not rules for you. GW used to be friendlier to gamers because it used to be a company owned by gamers that produced products for gamers. Those days are long gone, and they aren't coming back.

It's honestly surprising they even kept Legends around, and the only reason was surely that if they didn't, people would have been even angrier.
   
Made in us
Confessor Of Sins




Tacoma, WA, USA

 waefre_1 wrote:
Edit: They could consider having a "Legendarium" as part of the codex cycle (realistically, probably "Legendarium - Imperium", "Legendarium - Chaos", "Legendarium - Xenos" or "Legendarium - Xenos I/Legendarium - Xenos II") to accomplish this. I'm not particularly a fan of more codices at this point, but it would be an option if it was decided (for whatever reason) to not include them as a short list in the back of the relevant codex.
How would this be different from Legends as it is?

As much as you might dislike it, GW has produced rules for OOP models and given them away for free. That is an extremely customer friendly thing to do. What more do they really have to do and why should they do it?
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut





PenitentJake wrote:
To play devil's advocate though, should GW keep updating rules for units they no longer make?

Should GW be forced to continue making models available in order to justify continuing to update the rules?

And if so, at what point does that interfere with their ability to produce, store and sell other models?

Again, I get it- if you have a model you love, and it goes to Legends, and your preferred way to play the game is at a tournament that doesn't allow it, that hurts. I do miss Kyrinov and Jacobus, and a part of me wishes GW had kept them. But if they had, would it have been at the expense of Taddeus the Purifier, Pious Vorne and Gotfett de Montbard?

We react to that which hurts us, and it often prevents us from seeing the big picture. It really is a Kobayishi Maru for GW; if they were still forced to manufacture and update rules for every unit they've produced since 1987 because somebody loves it, but STILL come up with enough new models to keep the rest of us happy too?

I mean, is that really possible?

And then, if you love YOUR model enough, you'll come up with reasons why they should keep YOUR model manufactured and supported, but somebody else's model could be cut to make room for new stuff, right?

So as GW, how do you win this fight. Honestly, if you think you've got a way to keep a greater number of people happy than Legends, throw it on the table. Maybe there is a solution that's better and I just can't see it.

But to go back to Kyrinov and Jacobus, here are the options:

1: Status quo; stop making the models, but give them Legends so that anyone who already has them can keep using them.

2: Keep updating rules for them, but not make them... So then someone who likes the rules either has to convert or proxy.

3: Release a new plastic Jacobus and Kyrinov with new rules; and I have to admit... This sounds tempting. But would it cost me the Palatine? Or the Paragon? Or the Castigator? I mean, are the Admech players out there really going to be okay if I get all four of the units previewed PLUS Jacobus and Kyrinov? CWE players certainly aren't going to be happy about that (even if it turns out that we DO get a complete refresh in December, it sure isn't going to stop us from bitching about it until then... And I'd probably be one of the ones doing the bitching).

4. Stop making the models AND not bother giving us Legends; if you've got Kyrinov or Jacobus, play them as Counts as Missionaries (or counts as Preachers or counts as Taddeus the Purifier).

Those are they only four options I see. All of them suck. How do you beat the Kobayashi Maru?



This whole thing starts with a false premise. How hard would it be to update some models ? Not hard at all. What is the difference between a chaplain on a bike and a primaris chaplain on bike ? Little more than standard marine weapons and lacking a wound. Is that really any heavy work they need to do ? I don't think so, anyone could do that in moments. Hell they still have captains on bikes somehow they manage with that.

Legends has proven already even if its not a tournament people will not play against them because the tournament mindset pervades all aspects of the game, not just when you are at a tournament and GW knew this. So their boon of legends was just a kiss of a death wrapped up nice to look like a gift, it really wasn't.

GW is not the sweet damsel that cares what it does to the players. They simply want you to buy the new thing and they realize if they kept up with the already sold kids people might not just " upgrade " to the new thing. This isn't a stock issue and some of these kits hadn't been in production for a long time yet had rules the whole time for seemingly not really much more effort than the usual when it came to writing rules.

Heres how you beat it, you keep producing the rules for your models, realize perhaps people will get third party models or one day update them yourself but honor the people who made you the money and earned you the place you are today. Plenty would just upgrade anyways some words and point costs do little to over work the GW rules teams.

Like I predicted though, in swept the protection to why GW is blameless and only a benevolent loving patron giving us the best they can, yeah right. They didn't give any more thought to this other than the bottom line.
   
Made in gb
Executing Exarch






I wonder if the bat boys will stay at 2Ws.

https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/772746.page#10378083 - My progress/failblog painting blog thingy

Eldar- 4436 pts


AngryAngel80 wrote:
I don't know, when I see awesome rules, I'm like " Baby, your rules looking so fine. Maybe I gotta add you to my first strike battalion eh ? "


 Eonfuzz wrote:


I would much rather everyone have a half ass than no ass.


"A warrior does not seek fame and honour. They come to him as he humbly follows his path"  
   
Made in au
Quick-fingered Warlord Moderatus






 Argive wrote:
I wonder if the bat boys will stay at 2Ws.


I really hope so. If they go to T4 and 1W they’d become even more fragile than they are, and mine already die like flies.
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut





Lets hope they keep the wound and maybe get the t 4 as well. Wish the horses would have.
   
Made in de
Sagitarius with a Big F'in Gun





Their datasheet indicate T3 sadly. Our Skitarii Alphas also didnt get 2Wounds back. Serberys would be W3. Still only Guardsman LD, no WS3+ ( although I can live with that). The only thing that skitarii troops might get is 2 attacks as seen on serberys. On the other hand Bats stay at 2 attacks so skitarii might as well stay at 1.

Im curious what they will give skitarii to make them more elite again. Scions and kabalite warriors are overall better and have better synergies and buffs currently.
   
Made in au
Quick-fingered Warlord Moderatus






 0XFallen wrote:
Their datasheet indicate T3 sadly. Our Skitarii Alphas also didnt get 2Wounds back. Serberys would be W3. Still only Guardsman LD, no WS3+ ( although I can live with that). The only thing that skitarii troops might get is 2 attacks as seen on serberys. On the other hand Bats stay at 2 attacks so skitarii might as well stay at 1.

Im curious what they will give skitarii to make them more elite again. Scions and kabalite warriors are overall better and have better synergies and buffs currently.


Bats have had a leak?
   
Made in de
Sagitarius with a Big F'in Gun





https://www.reddit.com/r/AdeptusMechanicus/comments/mcwwt4/adeptus_mechanicus_9th_ed_releases_superthread/

Range nerf, Tazer got +1 Ap
   
Made in au
Quick-fingered Warlord Moderatus






 0XFallen wrote:
https://www.reddit.com/r/AdeptusMechanicus/comments/mcwwt4/adeptus_mechanicus_9th_ed_releases_superthread/

Range nerf, Tazer got +1 Ap


Range nerf seems kinda odd, but I use the Flamer bros anyway. Glad to see they stayed at 2 wounds. Tbf it does make sense for the mounted bros to get T4 and 2 wounds, as it’s in line with every other unit and their +1W and T for being on a bike/mount. Don’t know if it’s necessarily a good thing in the long run though.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/04/12 14:14:32


 
   
Made in de
Sagitarius with a Big F'in Gun





They are sicarians and have the same reason as to why marines have 2 wounds now. They lose their arms etc and can still fight.
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut




Their points values have always made more sense at 2W than 3W, they were ridiculously undercosted at 3W each.
   
Made in us
Decrepit Dakkanaut




yukishiro1 wrote:
Their points values have always made more sense at 2W than 3W, they were ridiculously undercosted at 3W each.

They had to get people to buy those ridiculously expensive kits somehow!

CaptainStabby wrote:
If Tyberos falls and needs to catch himself it's because the ground needed killing.

 jy2 wrote:
BTW, I can't wait to run Double-D-thirsters! Man, just thinking about it gets me Khorney.

 vipoid wrote:
Indeed - what sort of bastard would want to use their codex?

 MarsNZ wrote:
ITT: SoB players upset that they're receiving the same condescending treatment that they've doled out in every CSM thread ever.
 
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut





GW would never use rules to sell models, they are the pinnacles of balance and straight shooting honesty.
   
Made in au
Owns Whole Set of Skullz Techpriests






Versteckt in den Schatten deines Geistes.

And all their concepts and ideas are 100% original and do not use any other areas of fiction or history for inspiration.

They invented arrows, skulls, Roman numerals and grenade launchers.


Industrial Insanity - My Terrain Blog
"GW really needs to understand 'Less is more' when it comes to AoS." - Wha-Mu-077

 
   
Made in pl
Longtime Dakkanaut





 AngryAngel80 wrote:
GW would never use rules to sell models, they are the pinnacles of balance and straight shooting honesty.

I like how this dumb meme is always parroted despite zero proof and continents of evidence to the contrary. Yup, GW uses rules to sell models, that's why big $$ Primaris grav tanks have trash sheets (oh wait...), that's why GW did idiotic squat buff 95% of playerbase hated that slashed primaris sales (because they want to sell cheap ugly old trash, not new expensive boxes, eh?), that's why necron big models all have terrible rules (especially dumpster fire that is Monolith LoW status), that's why they killed Knight and Baneblade armies, etc, etc, Earth is flat
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut




We do have a few examples of GW overcooking the rules to sell models (wraithknight being the most infamous). But the very fact that these example are so few and far between does suggest it isn't a regular practice of theirs.

At the very least, we can say that if they try to deliberately overpower units to sell kits, they aren't very good at it most of the time.
   
Made in us
Confessor Of Sins




Tacoma, WA, USA

If GW has actively overpowered a kit to sell it in recent years, I wouldn’t say “they aren’t very good at it”. They would be abysmally bad at it.
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut





 Irbis wrote:
 AngryAngel80 wrote:
GW would never use rules to sell models, they are the pinnacles of balance and straight shooting honesty.

I like how this dumb meme is always parroted despite zero proof and continents of evidence to the contrary. Yup, GW uses rules to sell models, that's why big $$ Primaris grav tanks have trash sheets (oh wait...), that's why GW did idiotic squat buff 95% of playerbase hated that slashed primaris sales (because they want to sell cheap ugly old trash, not new expensive boxes, eh?), that's why necron big models all have terrible rules (especially dumpster fire that is Monolith LoW status), that's why they killed Knight and Baneblade armies, etc, etc, Earth is flat


You do realize the primaris were made a good deal better than first born marines for a awhile before first borns were buffed yes ? You do realize that while primaris tanks may not be amazing they still end up better, mostly, than first born tanks yes ? You do realize that GW may be aware people all have monoliths who play necrons as they weren't a LoW before yes ? You do realize that Baneblades and Knights more so did have a large amount of time they were very good as choices run and Baneblades have been sold for a long time so far yes ?

It may not always work, but it may not always be their design straight out the gate either. To think they won't push rules to push purchases though, that would be the conspiracy theory here.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
yukishiro1 wrote:
We do have a few examples of GW overcooking the rules to sell models (wraithknight being the most infamous). But the very fact that these example are so few and far between does suggest it isn't a regular practice of theirs.

At the very least, we can say that if they try to deliberately overpower units to sell kits, they aren't very good at it most of the time.


Are they always very good at it ? No but if they don't get the sales they want right off, best bet your bottom dollar they will make them tasty as soon as the next update for that models rules come out, typically. Some units oddly they seem content to not really entice people on with rules, like unless I missed it people weren't too thrilled with the ork buggies.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 H.B.M.C. wrote:
And all their concepts and ideas are 100% original and do not use any other areas of fiction or history for inspiration.

They invented arrows, skulls, Roman numerals and grenade launchers.



GW actually trademarked my skull, it'll be a sad day when I die and they take possession of it.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2021/04/13 06:28:19


 
   
 
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