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Made in es
Grim Dark Angels Interrogator-Chaplain




Vigo. Spain.

I would like for shoota boyz to be make viable.

Maybe I'm in the minority but I always liked shoota boyz more. For me what sets orks apart in 40k compared with fantasy is the DAKKADAKKADAKKA not this meele obsesion.

 Crimson Devil wrote:

Dakka does have White Knights and is also rather infamous for it's Black Knights. A new edition brings out the passionate and not all of them are good at expressing themselves in written form. There have been plenty of hysterical responses from both sides so far. So we descend into pointless bickering with neither side listening to each other. So posting here becomes more masturbation than conversation.

ERJAK wrote:
Forcing a 40k player to keep playing 7th is basically a hate crime.

 
   
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Keramory wrote:
 evil_kiwi_60 wrote:
I scratch my head at the supposed fluff justifications for marines easily taking on orcs. Most works seem to feature orks being significantly stronger and tougher than the comparable level of marines. Belial is lucky to escape Ghaz at Kadillus. Rynn’s World feature the crimson fist chapter master struggling against the warboss that’s pummeling his chapter. I mean there’s even orks that are more or at least as powerful as the emperor in his prime. T5 orks aren’t out of line with the background.

The problem only lays with the wounding chart where the S3 lasgun and the S4 bolter are now just as effective. Move off the D6 and we could get that granularity. And really it’s not like marines are hurting for tools to kill T5 orks. Assault cannons still exist for loyalists. Reaper chain cannons* and berserkers still exist for chaos.

* pending the new codex making havocs take 1 reaper, heavy bolter, or autocannon, 1 heavy bolter or autocannon, and 2 lascannons or missile launchers.


To be fair, those are the biggest baddest orks or the group. An ork that can take on big E, a Primarch, or even a named space marine in 1on1 is a rarity. From what I recall usually a single marine can mow down plenty of orks boyz, but it's the numbers that get them at the end.

I don't have any lore myself to quote or be 100% certain, but I was always under the impression a naked marine was about just as tough as a regular ork boy. Thats why both matching at t4 made sense to me. Yeah an ork boy can take a hole to the gut and shrug it off, but half the time in the lore so can a marine it always seems.

As for the lasgun and bolter argument, bolters slowly becoming -1ap across the field and being 1 more strength matches the lore pretty well. If a lasgun somehow even manages to wound an ork, they can survive it even without armor. If a bolt gun manages to wound an ork, they dead because its a glorified giant gernade launcher


So i am going to be generous here by not calling this your own head cannon on what an ork should be, that or just having played the space marine video game,where orks are not portrayed even close to most books. In the books, codexes etc often times an ork can be shot by a bolt and unless it hits them in the head the ork keeps coming. even if the ork is hit in the head if there is a nearby painboy and there is an ork nearby who has say been hit by 3-4 rounds and is unable to use their legs the painboy might cut the head off the body of the ruined ork body, sew it on to the body that has only lost its head, 1+1 = you now have 1 functional ork warrior ready to charge. The amount of punishment it takes to put down an ork is crazy which is why it is often done from ordinance cause a pile of green goo can't be put back together. There are several instances beyond just Uulenor and the beast where space marines are struggling against orks as they present a serious threat wherever they show up. Now there are a few blakc library writers who basically write space marine glory books where you will see things like a particularly skilled marine hero fighting through a whole squad of nobz or through a horde of ork boyz single handedly... but these instances are rare and meant to show just how special this particular marine is.

One piece that may also help is actually understanding that an Ork boy is going to be vastly different based on the waaagh and where they are. A wildboy in a small feudal world where only a few spores were left is really not going to much of a threat to a marine and even a guardsman might have even odds to take them on. A ork boy in a decent sized society limited to a planet or solar system is going to be bigger and stronger but probably in the threat to a marine but still odds highly in favor of the marine even if outnumbered by a few range. guardsman at this point is kind of hosed in one to one though. most the orks though on the tabletop are interstellar orks likely as part of a waaagh so the would be you bigger scarier orks where a space marine likely has the training, discipline and equipment to deal with an ork but we are no longer in the being abel to take on multiple orks territory. heck a interstellar boy might even be bigger than the nobz or a boss in a smaller waagh or tribe. orks are not liek humans where they reach a size and just stop the more they fight the stronger they get, the bigger the waaagh the bigger they get etc.

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 Gadzilla666 wrote:
 Xenomancers wrote:
Spoiler:
 Gadzilla666 wrote:
 Xenomancers wrote:
 Castozor wrote:
Bolters and lasguns also perform equally well against Plague Marines and Necron Immortals as well as a bunch of other stuff I'm forgetting. I'm not seeing how T5 Orkz is suddenly the straw that broke the camels back immersion wise.

Yeah...don't expect a bolt gun to do a lot against a plauge marine and an immortal is paying 17 points to have T5 a plauge marine is 21...this ork is going to be paying significantly less than that not to mention...a lot less than the primaris marine as well...you might notice...this change is specifically targeting space marines - the army of str 4 spam. It doesn't really affect anyone else much.

Sisters too I suppose are also going to be boned.

Immortals also have a 3+ save and get back up after you knock them down, and Plague Marines have a 3+ and reduce all damage by 1. Orks don't have anything like that. Every successful wound from a bolt rifle will kill an Ork Boy. They'll still die plenty easy.

We don't even know what orks free armywide rule is going to be...

No, we don't. So let's wait until we do before freaking out about it. I doubt it'll be any better than FREE AP ALL THE TIME!

Except it's not all the time. It is conditional. Heavy weapons only get it turn 1. Rapid fire and assault turn 2/3. Melee turn 4.

Other than that...A stratagem that puts you into the doctrin is still quite inferior to a stratagem that deals 6 mortal wounds or gives you 45 autowounds. Marines are actually quite bad in comparison to every reworked army and also some 8th eddition armies too. Sucks for CSM - I feel you. But the bonus AP is also necessary...when custodians are walking around with 1+ saves and is often useless because so many armies just have invune saves for the cost of FREE.

Dakka will never get this because it is an anti marine environment. Marines needed doctrines to have a chance. They needed bonus attacks. Because they don't have the things that really matter...Invune saves / double moves / teleports/ ect.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/06/17 19:29:22


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 Xenomancers wrote:

The lasgun is supposed to be the bottom of the barrel - A bolter is a powerful weapon more than capable of penetrating Astartes - an ork without armor is no contest for it.

The issue has always been - the bolter being unperforming on the table for nearly the whole history of the game. Bolters are tecnically worse against orks than they've ever been...giving a 6+ save to an ork that used to get nothing...thats not good enough...now bolters have to wound a chaff infantry on 5's? GTFO.

It is completely backwards and everyone knows it. Is everything ork getting +1 T also? Bikes? Buggies?


"bolters are technically worse against orks than they've ever been". Well lets see. 4th edition, 10 Marines at 24' got 10 shots, 6.6 hits, 3.3 wounds and likely 3.3 dead boyz for a total of 18pts of dead boyz.

Assuming orkz get no price increase and T5: 10 Marines at 24' get 20 shots, 13.3 hits 4.43 wounds and 3.69 dead Boyz for between 24-32pts of dead Boyz.

So when you say they are worse off....you mean, in your opinion which is completely devoid of fact, reason or common sense?

 Xenomancers wrote:

Almost half the weapons in the game have d2+ almost half have ap-1 or 2.

A primaris marine costs more than 2x and ork boy too (2x exactly if they go to 10 points). Has a fraction of the offense per point.

T5 ork boys - IMO is the dumbest stat change in the history of 40k. I've played for more than 20 years.


I'm always amazed that people like you are so bold as to continuously contradict yourself and think nothing of it when called on it. You just said nobody list tailors against Marines and than you say half the weapons in the game are D2 and have AP-1 or 2. Pick an argument and stick with it, you can't have it both ways.

Just to remind you of the breakdown. In 4th a Marine was 15pts an ork was 6pts. It took 9 shots from a bolter to kill 1 Marine, it took 3 to kill a Boy. So point for point, 18shots to kill 30pts of Marines and 15 to kill 30pts of Orkz.

9th a Marine is 18pts and an ork is currently 8pts. It takes 18 shots from a bolter to kill 1 Marine and 3.6 to kill a Boy. Point for point it takes 72 shots to kill 72pts of Tac Marine it takes 32.4 to kill 72pts worth of Orkz.

So since 4th a Space Marine has increased in durability compared to that Ork boy...significantly. Dmg wise the Marine has gained while the Ork boy has lost or stayed the same.

And when Boyz go to T5 (assuming no points increase) it will take about 5.3 shots to kill an Ork boy which makes it 47...hell lets round up to 50. 50 shots to kill 72pts of Ork boyzStill significantly less durable in comparison to where they were in 4th compared to a Tac Marine.




Automatically Appended Next Post:
 the_scotsman wrote:
Semper I'm incredibly curious where you're getting "DE have had a 30% winrate overall since their codex."

The places I generally go for competitive data have had DE as a very clear winrate outlier - 65%-75% depending on the week. Now, almost every major facet of their competitive lists did just get nerfed, and to my knowledge we have yet to see any post-nerf major events, just like we haven't seen any post-codex major events for Admech. So we don't know where the numbers are for drukhari without Dark Technomancers, without blender succubus, without +2CP and with +10pt raiders. It's not yet even close to clear whether that's enough of a nerf, but it is absolutely clear that a nerf was warranted, just like it was clear a nerf was warranted after the supplements first came out with marines 2.0.



40k stats. They have faction breakdown and you can select months/opponents etc, its actually really good, the only downside is they don't update it often enough for my liking, atm I think they only have SOME of the recent events from June in their system.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/06/17 19:56:45


 Xenomancers wrote:
It is utterly idiotic...like 8.5 ironhands idiotic to include this rule. I can assure you within 1 month it will be nerfed too...to only be DA characters...which is fine for a free rule that no other marines get...

Just cant stand these snow flake marines anymore.
 
   
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So this entire thing is someone literally arguing for Movie Marines being the basis for every faction to be balanced against?
   
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Actually, space marines already have a good unit that feels like movie marines that mows down T5 orcs. Its called heavy intercessors.

Heavy intercessors come default with a heavy bolt rifle. This is a rapid fire1, str 5 AP 1 damage rifle that shoots 36 inches. Heavy intercessors can also switch all their heavy bolt rifles into a hellstorm bolt rifle that is a Str 5, AP0, assault 3 ranged 30 inch rifle.

Also, heavy intercessors are CORE, T5 with 3W each. They are literally movie marines against orcs.

So, GW has already come out with the perfect space marine unit that mows down T5 orcs. Just go out there and load up on heavy intercessors!

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2021/06/18 02:18:29


 
   
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 Galas wrote:
Maybe I'm in the minority but I always liked shoota boyz more. For me what sets orks apart in 40k compared with fantasy is the DAKKADAKKADAKKA not this meele obsesion.
You're not alone. Ork shooting, to me at least, is one of the more entertaining aspects of 40k Orks. I love their wild and wacky guns.

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Eldenfirefly wrote:
Actually, space marines already have a good unit that feels like movie marines that mows down T5 orcs. Its called heavy intercessors.

Heavy intercessors come default with a heavy bolt rifle. This is a rapid fire1, str 5 AP 1 damage rifle that shoots 36 inches. Heavy intercessors can also switch all their heavy bolt rifles into a hellstorm bolt rifle that is a Str 5, AP0, assault 3 ranged 30 inch rifle.

Also, heavy intercessors are CORE, T5 with 3W each. They are literally movie marines against orcs.

So, GW has already come out with the perfect space marine unit that mows down T5 orcs. Just go out there and load up on heavy intercessors!

Just a quick reminder that Movie Marines back then were "balanced" to play a single unit of Tactical Marines with Sarge and optionally a Rhino or Razorback against a complete 1500p army.
Rules can be found here: https://www.dakkadakka.com/s/i/at/2011/6/moviemarines-01194024.pdf

I get that you likely meant it in a slightly joking way, but to say "They are literally movie marines against orcs." is wrong and hyperbolic.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/06/18 06:22:52


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 Xenomancers wrote:


A primaris marine costs more than 2x and ork boy too (2x exactly if they go to 10 points). Has a fraction of the offense per point.


T5 ork boys - IMO is the dumbest stat change in the history of 40k. I've played for more than 20 years.


The dumbest stat change in the history of 40k was giving 2W to marines.

And terminators with 3W doesn't make any sense at all, when historically they've always been 1W. Did they eat Popeye's spinach by chance?

Orks getting +1T is in line with the previous increase of +2ppm from their typical points cost without gaining any bonus. Now they can justify that jump from 6ppm to 8ppm.

A primaris marine has much more offensive capacity than an ork boy, there's also shooting to consider.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/06/18 07:17:49



 
   
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Versteckt in den Schatten deines Geistes.

Was giving Marines an extra wound really that bad? And should Terminators stay at 1 wound because of "tradition"?

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 Xenomancers wrote:
Yeah...don't expect a bolt gun to do a lot against a plauge marine and an immortal is paying 17 points to have T5 a plauge marine is 21...this ork is going to be paying significantly less than that not to mention...a lot less than the primaris marine as well...you might notice...this change is specifically targeting space marines - the army of str 4 spam. It doesn't really affect anyone else much.


But that's not a problem, right? If marines become unplayable, you can just go and play one of your other two armies.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 ZebioLizard2 wrote:
So this entire thing is someone literally arguing for Movie Marines being the basis for every faction to be balanced against?

Yes, and to add to the hilarity of it, that person is infamous for being wrong about almost everything related to orks. He had long threads about how kanz, squig buggies, post-nerf SAG and stompas are too strong and need to be nerfed.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 H.B.M.C. wrote:
Was giving Marines an extra wound really that bad? And should Terminators stay at 1 wound because of "tradition"?


While I hate playing against those durable zoggers, it just feels right how they are now. Weapons and their platforms have gotten better and better since I started in 5th, it was about time that defensive profiles catch up.

This message was edited 4 times. Last update was at 2021/06/18 09:30:27


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Climate change is real
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Orks are not a melee army
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 H.B.M.C. wrote:
Was giving Marines an extra wound really that bad? And should Terminators stay at 1 wound because of "tradition"?


Maybe, as I wish all infantries were 1W, with very few exceptions with 2W and I certainly can accept termies being one of the few infantries with 2W. But definitely going from 1 to 3W was extra dumb. So was releasing an entire line of dudes with T5 and 3W.


 
   
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Onuris Coreworld

Forgive me for being so late to the party here, but is this a rumor that Orks will be T5? Or are they T5 right now and I just didn't know it?

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 TheCrazyCryptek wrote:
Forgive me for being so late to the party here, but is this a rumor that Orks will be T5? Or are they T5 right now and I just didn't know it?


Official statements released from GW. ALL ork infantries will get +1T, including gretchins. It doesn't affect vehicles of course but bikers are expected to get their +1T as well, becoming T6 models. That's a preview from the upcoming codex, and until it gets released the 8th codex rules will be in play so orks are still T4 for now.


 
   
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This is just part of GWs ongoing process of using the new SvT table and Wound/damage system to differentiate more between defensive profiles, and I approve of it.

Too bad that while GW is doing a decent work on infantry and bikers, she kind of forgot the existence of vehicles and monsters...
   
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Spoletta wrote:
This is just part of GWs ongoing process of using the new SvT table and Wound/damage system to differentiate more between defensive profiles, and I approve of it.

Too bad that while GW is doing a decent work on infantry and bikers, she kind of forgot the existence of vehicles and monsters...


Gotta leave something for 10th :p

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Climate change is real
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Orks are not a melee army
Stand up for science!
 
   
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 Jidmah wrote:
Spoletta wrote:
This is just part of GWs ongoing process of using the new SvT table and Wound/damage system to differentiate more between defensive profiles, and I approve of it.

Too bad that while GW is doing a decent work on infantry and bikers, she kind of forgot the existence of vehicles and monsters...


Gotta leave something for 10th :p


i am hoping tyranid codex makes em tougher this edition, I just started 3d printing this crazy cool looking iron hive tyranid army its kind of steam punk/ part bio part tech looking tyranids
https://www.cgtrader.com/3d-print-models/miniatures/sci-fi/iron-hive-warriors-set-1

either way i am going to make them and paint them but it would be cool if they were at least middle of the road to play some casual games

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You know, on the subject (somewhat), do standard ork boyz really need that 6+ armor save? I mean, if we are saving a lot of needless rolling with adding t5 instead of say a FNP rule... do we also still need that 6+ save?

I would be curious of someone with better mathhammer skills could see if that would make a huge difference regarding things like bolters/lasguns ect...
   
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 H.B.M.C. wrote:
Was giving Marines an extra wound really that bad? And should Terminators stay at 1 wound because of "tradition"?


Yes! No change, nothing ever needs to change! No FAQs! No new codexes! No change!

I'm being facetious by the way
   
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Sesto San Giovanni, Italy

I don't like very much the approach with Toughness roll first and the save after (the inverse will make more sense).

Within this framework, T5 make sense for Orks. Also W3 would have made sense lore-wise.
All in all is a good change: it's unfoetuy they haven't implemented it at 9th release, when it would have made more sense.

(And, just for clarity: I despise the fact that a bigger armour for SM mean T5: a better save should have been the proper implementation).

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leerm02 wrote:

You know, on the subject (somewhat), do standard ork boyz really need that 6+ armor save? I mean, if we are saving a lot of needless rolling with adding t5 instead of say a FNP rule... do we also still need that 6+ save?

I would be curious of someone with better mathhammer skills could see if that would make a huge difference regarding things like bolters/lasguns ect...


I find that idea horrifying. But if it comes with a drastic drop in points.. maybe? The drop in point would have to be for grots as well, so we could make grot shields a unit rule instead of a stratagem too.
So many models, so little time.

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I do have some concerns about the degree to which 'basic' weapons seem to be increasingly lacking in any meaningful tactical role.

And yes, I'm aware that some weapons are getting buffs as books move into 9th but that just means that the weapons which *aren't* getting buffs end up falling even further behind.

To give an example of what I mean, I would think one of the most appropriate anti-Ork weapons would be the humble flamer. However, it's now wounding even basic Ork boys on 5s. That... doesn't feel right.

To be clear, I don't think T5 Orks are going to break the game or anything. I just find myself wondering whether we're heading in the right direction.

 the_scotsman wrote:
Yeah, when i read the small novel that is the Death Guard unit options and think about resolving the attacks from a melee-oriented min size death guard squad, the thing that springs to mind is "Accessible!"

 Argive wrote:
GW seems to have a crystal ball and just pulls hairbrained ideas out of their backside for the most part.


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You're not. If you're worried about your opponent using 'fake' rules, you're having fun the wrong way. This hobby isn't about rules. It's about buying Citadel miniatures.

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I mean theres a good amount of chaff units flamers kill just right (And Sororitas flamers kill orks fine) like all human based chaff units, tyranids hordes, etc...

But TBH flamers haven't been that good of a weapon since 8th. A stormbolter is always outright better. 2 shots at 24" and 4 at 12" are always better than 1d6 autohitting shots at 8" (now 12")

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2021/06/18 17:13:08


 Crimson Devil wrote:

Dakka does have White Knights and is also rather infamous for it's Black Knights. A new edition brings out the passionate and not all of them are good at expressing themselves in written form. There have been plenty of hysterical responses from both sides so far. So we descend into pointless bickering with neither side listening to each other. So posting here becomes more masturbation than conversation.

ERJAK wrote:
Forcing a 40k player to keep playing 7th is basically a hate crime.

 
   
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That's a great point, while new weapons like the Heavy Intercessor Bolter (S5) or the Ministorum Flamer (S5) can deal with this problem it leaves the classic variants far behind. When you think of a Guardsmen squad on the front lines you'd think the flamer an effective weapon but with Wounding Orks on 5s it's become rather meager.

Keeping all the good weapons in new kits or resurgent factions sure is a great way to keep business flowing. Tough break for the Guardsmen who has to hold the line.
   
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leerm02 wrote:

You know, on the subject (somewhat), do standard ork boyz really need that 6+ armor save? I mean, if we are saving a lot of needless rolling with adding t5 instead of say a FNP rule... do we also still need that 6+ save?

I would be curious of someone with better mathhammer skills could see if that would make a huge difference regarding things like bolters/lasguns ect...


IMO? Not really, I rarely if ever get to roll for it anyways. It feels like everyone has AP-1 anyways and it doesn't save that many boyz to begin with.

On the flip side, you don't have same issues against multi-dmg weapons as FNP does and orks often have KFF. Plus, it's not like you are busy during your opponent's turn besides packing up casualties, so it's not a huge gain in time.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 The Red Hobbit wrote:
That's a great point, while new weapons like the Heavy Intercessor Bolter (S5) or the Ministorum Flamer (S5) can deal with this problem it leaves the classic variants far behind. When you think of a Guardsmen squad on the front lines you'd think the flamer an effective weapon but with Wounding Orks on 5s it's become rather meager.


It think that the concept of regular flamers simply doesn't work in 8th/9th. It's not actually good at killing anything, so what's the point of the weapon? There needs to be a rework for this kind of weapon, similar to what they did with blast, it actually starts being good against chaff.

If it manages to kill T4 orks well, it won't suddenly fall apart against T5.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/06/18 18:23:21


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Chemtrails aren't a thing
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Orks are not a melee army
Stand up for science!
 
   
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on flamers... yea they kind of are bad but in past editions it sucked to pick up boyz by the handful because a 5 point flamer just deleted 80 points of boyz in a turn.

currently a flamer is often 5 points. D6 shots so average 3.5. currently wounds on a 4 so 1.75 wounds, so about 1.5 dead orks.

with T5 orks that is 1.15 wounds before save so basically 1 after save. still a 5 point weapon deleting a 8-12 point model (i think those are likely ranges with 10 being most likely)

as for the idea of the ork 6+ save being gone i would not be too keen on it, saving 16.6% of ap0 weapons is still nice against some armies, but if it came to 9 points without an armor save vs 10 points with then i don't need to 6+ also would make things faster as stated above, one less roll. .

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 Jidmah wrote:

It think that the concept of regular flamers simply doesn't work in 8th/9th. It's not actually good at killing anything, so what's the point of the weapon? There needs to be a rework for this kind of weapon, similar to what they did with blast, it actually starts being good against chaff.


Agreed, Flamers are mediocre at most things, but chaff infantry was one area where they excelled, plus Overwatch. I found the Flamer to be a good point though since its an iconic weapon, and old time favorite, and it dovetails into Strength Vs Toughness on classic units and weapons. When Marines went from 1W to 2W discussions became "which of these existing weapons should be D2 now?". With Orks moving to T5 many folks will look at the weapon list and think "which of these existing weapons should be S5 now?"

In GW's case it's a bit easier, "Which of these new kits should be S5?"
   
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Y'all can see the forest but for the trees. This is power creep, plain and simple.

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 The Red Hobbit wrote:
 Jidmah wrote:

It think that the concept of regular flamers simply doesn't work in 8th/9th. It's not actually good at killing anything, so what's the point of the weapon? There needs to be a rework for this kind of weapon, similar to what they did with blast, it actually starts being good against chaff.


Agreed, Flamers are mediocre at most things, but chaff infantry was one area where they excelled, plus Overwatch. I found the Flamer to be a good point though since its an iconic weapon, and old time favorite, and it dovetails into Strength Vs Toughness on classic units and weapons. When Marines went from 1W to 2W discussions became "which of these existing weapons should be D2 now?". With Orks moving to T5 many folks will look at the weapon list and think "which of these existing weapons should be S5 now?"

In GW's case it's a bit easier, "Which of these new kits should be S5?"


For starters flamers should all ignore light cover. And probably, just like in Cities of Death for 8th, both grenades and flamers should get full auto hits agaisnt units full in cover. With those two things they have actually a tactical place in the game more similar to how they were actually used in real life.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/06/18 20:01:36


 Crimson Devil wrote:

Dakka does have White Knights and is also rather infamous for it's Black Knights. A new edition brings out the passionate and not all of them are good at expressing themselves in written form. There have been plenty of hysterical responses from both sides so far. So we descend into pointless bickering with neither side listening to each other. So posting here becomes more masturbation than conversation.

ERJAK wrote:
Forcing a 40k player to keep playing 7th is basically a hate crime.

 
   
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Those sound like fun rules that match the intent of the weapon's purpose. I'll have to give those a try next time I'm running an army with flamers in it.
   
 
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