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 Platuan4th wrote:

Also one of the Support Systems adds AP.

Historically true, but we don't know what if any changes the ATS has gotten since it is frustratingly absent from this article.

The previewed strat specifically excludes Drones in the model count, so likely we're going back to attached Drones. Perhaps that's their Saviour Protocols nerf, just limiting how many Drones can actually do it to a unit.

The way they've listed Drop Threat Acquisition with the higher CP cost and bigger unit size first is making me irrationally angry. They normally do it the other way round.

Crisis Suits seem pretty tasty these days.

Or will.

I like the solution to tau melee on suits. Instead of fusion blades or such, they just treat their weapons like pistols.

 MajorWesJanson wrote:
I like the solution to tau melee on suits. Instead of fusion blades or such, they just treat their weapons like pistols.

Yeah, and it doesn't inheritnly clash with them being better at shooting. You have to actually survive at least 1 round of melee combat to shoot at them, so your numbers are going to be fairly reduced by that point anyway.

On another note, anyone else notice that a unit of 9 crisis suits all sporting 3 burst cannons would now fire a whopping 162 shots? Is there any other single unit in the game that shoots anywhere near that much?

A max size unit of Ork bikes.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
I've had a feeling for a while that there would be quite a lot of similarity between an Ork speedwaaagh list and a Tau Montka list. Obviously the Tau version has zero melee, but that just makes me think it will get one of: extra speed, extra survivability or extra dakka.

Multi-tracker rules make me annoyed. Its like blast, but not like blast, and the last sentence fragment is an obvious rules question:
'Maximum 1 per model.'
question 1: per model in the _target_ unit, or the _firing_ unit?
question 2: allocated in order, I guess? Because it matters a lot if you get extra plasma rifle hits or extra burst cannon hits.
question 3: but wait, the first part of the rule is resolved 'each time _a ranged attack targets a unit_' so is the maximum of 1 per model for each weapon, or the entire unit's shooting as a whole?

Who the feth wrote this?

 A Town Called Malus wrote:
Well, at least JSJ isn't sept locked or a relic but it being a stratagem rather than an innate ability of a battlesuit is stupid. It was a core ability for jetpack suits since their introduction.

But now I guess shooting in/into combat is the core ability of battlesuits whereas their previously core design mechanic is now a bonus you have to pay extra for.

Switch those abilities around.

Better it's strategy so it's 1 unit. Gw has never done move shoot move without it being broken.

Voss wrote:
Multi-tracker rules make me annoyed. Its like blast, but not like blast, and the last sentence fragment is an obvious rules question:
'Maximum 1 per model.'
question 1: per model in the _target_ unit, or the _firing_ unit?
question 2: allocated in order, I guess? Because it matters a lot if you get extra plasma rifle hits or extra burst cannon hits.
question 3: but wait, the first part of the rule is resolved 'each time _a ranged attack targets a unit_' so is the maximum of 1 per model for each weapon, or the entire unit's shooting as a whole?

Who the feth wrote this?

1 per model for the support system. because models can be given multiple support systems. this precludes you take 2 multitrackers to turn a 6 into 2 extra hits.
why would this ever be the firing unit Oo

not a thing. because you shoot weapons separately. so a 6 counts for the weapon that rolled the 6.

if you roll 6 6's for your Burst cannon (somehow) then you get 6 extra hits. see question 1, each Crisis suit can have 2-4 choices from weapons and/or support systems. only 1 of those can be a multi tracker. no taking 2 to turn 6 into 2 extra hits. (assuming the way you equip a Crisis suit doesn't change)

tneva82 wrote:

 A Town Called Malus wrote:
Well, at least JSJ isn't sept locked or a relic but it being a stratagem rather than an innate ability of a battlesuit is stupid. It was a core ability for jetpack suits since their introduction.

But now I guess shooting in/into combat is the core ability of battlesuits whereas their previously core design mechanic is now a bonus you have to pay extra for.

Switch those abilities around.

Better it's strategy so it's 1 unit. Gw has never done move shoot move without it being broken.

I disagree. Tau jetpack units like Crisis and Stealth suits (I'll adress the Riptide) were never that problematic with JSJ as they could move a maximum of 12" a turn, which was catchable by most armies in the game through the use of bikes, cavalry, fast vehicles etc. You can also balance this put by giving them shorter range weapons (say, lower the range of the missile pod to 18"). If your army couldn't catch or outmanoeuvre a unit which can only move 12" a turn, then you have a very serious issue in army composition.

The real problematic units were those who could move much faster than that, such as jet bikes with their turbo move which made them uncatchable. This was especially problematic with the Eldar scatterlaser jetbikes, who coupled a 12" standard move, a 36" range gun, a 2d6" move in the assault phase and a turbo move to the other side of the board forgoing shooting if they were ever in danger of being caught. The Riptide was also problematic with its nova jump, coupled with its stupid durability and long range gun which could drop large blasts on the move.

Voss wrote:
Multi-tracker rules make me annoyed. Its like blast, but not like blast, and the last sentence fragment is an obvious rules question:
'Maximum 1 per model.'
question 1: per model in the _target_ unit, or the _firing_ unit?
question 2: allocated in order, I guess? Because it matters a lot if you get extra plasma rifle hits or extra burst cannon hits.
question 3: but wait, the first part of the rule is resolved 'each time _a ranged attack targets a unit_' so is the maximum of 1 per model for each weapon, or the entire unit's shooting as a whole?

Who the feth wrote this?

It reads to me like it’s a wargear/weapon option. As an example a battlesuit might be able to take 3 pieces of wargear such as a multi tracker, a target lock, a drone controller etc. the limitation means you can’t take more than one of this particular item per model.

The biggest problem with JSJ is that its unfun for your opponent to see an army hide behind cover, dash out to shoot and then hide again before you can retaliate.

I liked how it allowed you to be more aggressive and played a very 'in your face' suit list that often ended on the opposite side of the board but the general use of JSJ was simply unfun, a problem Tau generally suffer from anyway as a 'stand here and shoot you till your dead' army.

I also suspect it's so you can't take 3 Multi Trackers and have 6's exploding 3 times into 4 hits.

 Ordana wrote:
The biggest problem with JSJ is that its unfun for your opponent to see an army hide behind cover, dash out to shoot and then hide again before you can retaliate.

I liked how it allowed you to be more aggressive and played a very 'in your face' suit list that often ended on the opposite side of the board but the general use of JSJ was simply unfun, a problem Tau generally suffer from anyway as a 'stand here and shoot you till your dead' army.

Depends what you want from a game. At its core, JSJ was an ability which required the use of movement to counter (by denying a safe area to jump back to, for example), rather than simple brute application of firepower.

Which is where the jetbike turbocharge issue I mentioned comes into play by making it impossible to counter as the unit in question simply has too much movement to be pinned down. Which crisis and stealth suits never had.

An interesting point I saw mentioned elsewhere. The shoot and move is at the start of the shooting phase, if Markerlights work (roughly) the same way that means no markerlight support could be a big problem.

Aash wrote:

Voss wrote:
Multi-tracker rules make me annoyed. Its like blast, but not like blast, and the last sentence fragment is an obvious rules question:
'Maximum 1 per model.'
question 1: per model in the _target_ unit, or the _firing_ unit?
question 2: allocated in order, I guess? Because it matters a lot if you get extra plasma rifle hits or extra burst cannon hits.
question 3: but wait, the first part of the rule is resolved 'each time _a ranged attack targets a unit_' so is the maximum of 1 per model for each weapon, or the entire unit's shooting as a whole?

Who the feth wrote this?

It reads to me like it’s a wargear/weapon option. As an example a battlesuit might be able to take 3 pieces of wargear such as a multi tracker, a target lock, a drone controller etc. the limitation means you can’t take more than one of this particular item per model.

Ah. That would make sense (though it would make more sense as a general rule for battlesuit hardpoint wargear, not specifically following the bit about how it affects ranged attacks. Or if it has to be on the gear for some reason, maybe first, before the effects).

More lethality. Precisely what 9th needs.

JSJ as a strat is just another crazy example of removing things that should just be special rules and turning them into strats. I'm surprised more suit support systems haven't been turned into strats (coming soon: Blacksun Filter, 1 CP on units with the 'Blacksun Filter' keyword!).

But nothing is worse than the "units of 6 or more". I don't know why GW decided that hordes in 9th start at 6 models and go up from there, but it is one of the most maddening things about this edition.

 A Town Called Malus wrote:

tneva82 wrote:

 A Town Called Malus wrote:
Well, at least JSJ isn't sept locked or a relic but it being a stratagem rather than an innate ability of a battlesuit is stupid. It was a core ability for jetpack suits since their introduction.

But now I guess shooting in/into combat is the core ability of battlesuits whereas their previously core design mechanic is now a bonus you have to pay extra for.

Switch those abilities around.

Better it's strategy so it's 1 unit. Gw has never done move shoot move without it being broken.

I disagree. Tau jetpack units like Crisis and Stealth suits (I'll adress the Riptide) were never that problematic with JSJ as they could move a maximum of 12" a turn, which was catchable by most armies in the game through the use of bikes, cavalry, fast vehicles etc. You can also balance this put by giving them shorter range weapons (say, lower the range of the missile pod to 18"). If your army couldn't catch or outmanoeuvre a unit which can only move 12" a turn, then you have a very serious issue in army composition.

The real problematic units were those who could move much faster than that, such as jet bikes with their turbo move which made them uncatchable. This was especially problematic with the Eldar scatterlaser jetbikes, who coupled a 12" standard move, a 36" range gun, a 2d6" move in the assault phase and a turbo move to the other side of the board forgoing shooting if they were ever in danger of being caught. The Riptide was also problematic with its nova jump, coupled with its stupid durability and long range gun which could drop large blasts on the move.

Point isn't go fast. Point is be immune to return fire.

Move 0.1", shoot, move 0.1" back. You literally don't need more than 0.2" movement to a) shoot at target b) hide behind LOS blocking terrain.

GW has had 30 years+ history. Not single game move-shoot-move has been army ability in large quantities it's not been busted.

Thanks to obscuring it's even easier than ever before as you literally need to just smallest distance you can measure to move out of touching the terrain piece to hide behind.

 H.B.M.C. wrote:
I don't know why GW decided that hordes in 9th start at 6 models and go up from there, but it is one of the most maddening things about this edition.

very simple, because it suits their box layout, having 5 different models with 1 being the unit commander in a spure, 2 sprues in a box, so better make 2 units of 5 instead a single unit of 10

or you go by the explanation of the developers at the very beginning of 9th, "we have a new crazy idea every 2 minutes (for new rules) and with the new edition we can but those finally into the game"

 A Town Called Malus wrote:
I disagree. Tau jetpack units like Crisis and Stealth suits (I'll adress the Riptide) were never that problematic with JSJ as they could move a maximum of 12" a turn, which was catchable by most armies in the game through the use of bikes, cavalry, fast vehicles etc.

Ah, yes, invalidating every single melee infantry army in the game is ""not problematic""

After all, it's not like there is at least six (close to a dozen+ if you include subfactions) armies that are billed as slower but more durable (read, losing by default to JSJ nonsense no matter the player skill)-- Oh wait, there are! You play fluffy DG, nurgle, Ianden, Salamanders or IG? Sucks to be you, eh?

Then there is the fact you ignore how bikes and cavalry had movement restrictions in past editions (put unit on stairs and laugh as ""catchable"" unit becomes immune to charge, or simply put it behind wall piece longer than 12" etc) or the fact that JSJ also completely invalidated shooting armies if the board had any LOS blocking terrain (and it really should). Really, to counter JSJ you needed either fast unit with heavy shooting (rather rare thing in 40K outside broken eldar gak) or very fast melee one that could be further invalidated with baiting one charge then dumping whole army overwatch into said unit.

Yup, such fun and ""balanced"" tactic, I have no idea why they got rid of it. Maybe they should bring riptidewings back too, or that equally broken drone gak list (the one that deepstriked off the table every turn, leaving opponent nothing to shoot at or charge), eh? After all, I am sure they can be ""countered"" somehow by the most broken DE or Eldar lists, makes them totally fine and totes not autowin against everything else, innit?

 H.B.M.C. wrote:
JSJ as a strat is just another crazy example of removing things that should just be special rules and turning them into strats. I'm surprised more suit support systems haven't been turned into strats (coming soon: Blacksun Filter, 1 CP on units with the 'Blacksun Filter' keyword!).

Maybe, just maybe, GW tried to bring JSJ after Tau complains but it being such unfun to play against, completely broken mechanic they tried to limit 'all other armies can do squat against it' issue by making it less cancerous and slightly harder to cheese?

There are stratagems that should be just unit rule (*cough* Transhuman on all primaris to give them fluff durability back *cough*) but JSJ is not one of them

Irbis, don't ever change.

I feel sick!!!

Huh, GW are actually addressing the issue of the one shot anti tank weapons relatively properly for once. I guess we'll have to see how they price the Hammerhead since GW often overvalues these types of things, but it's a start! Actually feels like it'll do more than just spamming High Yield Missile Pods or Fusion Blasters. You'll probably still want to save a reroll for the wound roll though.

Let's hope this is a sign for LR Vanquisher Cannons to get similar treatment!

Nobody is Safe From the Awesome Power of The T’au Empire’s New and Improved Railgun - WarCom

Holy gak

Interesting it’s not a Heavy Railgun…which suggests Broadsides might get the same basic weapon rules?

I’m not at all up on Tau, just in case I made a tit out myself with that comment!

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
Interesting it’s not a Heavy Railgun…which suggests Broadsides might get the same basic weapon rules?

I’m not at all up on Tau, just in case I made a tit out myself with that comment!

I believe Broadsides have Heavy Rail Rifles, Hammerhead one has always been called the Railgun. The Heavy Rail Cannon is something that's mounted on the Forgeworld Flyers the Tau have.

I don't think it's unreasonable to see that Heavy Rail Rifles get a similar glow up that the Railgun did though. They probably inflict 1 mortal wound per successful wound roll instead. Not sure about stats, maybe D3+3 damage? Maybe S12 or S10, AP-5. Currently they're 2 shots each though, so they'd have to go down to one shot each otherwise they'd be far better than the Hammerhead due to the quantity of shots.

Ahhh, that makes sense.

Um, wow. That seems a little over the top. Like what I’d expect to find on titans, not 40k scale units.

That’s pretty much going to one shot anything.