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Made in us
Dangerous Outrider




Baltimore, MD USA

 Cruentus wrote:
Again, I don’t play at stores, like most people.

The only “value” I need, as a member of the community, is for a store to sell me stuff. The End.


It kind of sounds like he is saying that to be part of the community you HAVE to play at a store. So you are not part of the community… I am not either.
   
Made in us
Deadly Tomb Guard





Florida

Gue'vesa Emissary wrote:
 McDougall Designs wrote:
I offer accessibility to ranges that your FLGS may not carry.


But do you offer access to ranges I can't buy direct from their respective manufacturers? no. Every manufacturer I have ever seen now has an online store of their own so you can buy direct.

Either way that's still kind of off-topic for a discussion of GW sales. Maybe some obscure minor product lines have accessibility issues where even discount sellers with no retail store can add genuine value but that's certainly not the case with GW products.

Define "obscure" please. I carry or can access most of the "front of industry" plastics providers.

I want to sell them at a discount, because as a hobbyist myself I've become accustomed to purchasing from discount retailers in order to make my poor-mans hobby dollar stretch a little further.


So you're in "business" to act as a charity? Is this intended to be your primary job or just a side thing to keep you busy on weekends? no. I identified that customers would probably be of similar mindset, and want to purchase kits at a discount. That's all this was saying.

Should I be denied business accounts, simply because I have been unable to raise capital needed for a building/rent?


Yes. Physical retail stores are vital for the long-term health of both GW and the hobby as a whole. Requiring a physical location is important protection against online sellers undercutting the real stores and driving them out of business (or at least getting them to stop carrying GW products).

You are stating agreement. Did you consider the paragraph before this one stating I want to open a physical location but have been unable to get capital. Thus I decided to open my business regardless, and do sales online until I can afford a physical location?

Automatically Appended Next Post:
 RustyNumber wrote:
What a weird corporate bootlick opinion.


You do understand that these policies are for the benefit of the community as a whole, right? And that they favor small independent stores over parasitic online sellers that will gladly kill a game if it means 5% more profit this quarter?

Would you please define what you consider the "community"?



Cruentus wrote:Again, I don’t play at stores, like most people.

All I need a store to do is sell me product, however they want to do it.

And, actually, McDougall does offer more than going direct to the manufacturer/game company. He offers single sprues of their offerings, which is great for kit bashing or checking out the models before a proper purchase (having recently ordered a bunch of sprues myself).

and I'll take custom requests for single sprues if you need something specific.

The only “value” I need, as a member of the community, is for a store to sell me stuff. The End.


McDougall Designs Wargaming Retailer

McDougall Designs Dakka News thread.

McDougall Designs Facebook page

I am an Authorized Retailer of Wargames Atlantic and Mantic games, and carry shieldwolf and fireforge (among others) from distributors. 
   
Made in us
Water-Caste Negotiator




 Orlanth wrote:
This is fair business anyway..


Sure. It's legal. But GW is not obligated to provide them with inventory on favorable terms, and we are not obligated to call them anything other than parasites.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Smokestack wrote:
It kind of sounds like he is saying that to be part of the community you HAVE to play at a store. So you are not part of the community… I am not either.


No, that's not what I'm saying. But the fact that you don't want a particular form of support doesn't change the fact that the real store is offering support that an online-only discount seller doesn't provide.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 McDougall Designs wrote:
no. Every manufacturer I have ever seen now has an online store of their own so you can buy direct.


Then you aren't offering accessibility. There may be other things you offer but in terms of accessibility you've added no value compared to what was already there.

Would you please define what you consider the "community"?


The people who play the game, paint miniatures, etc. Physical retail stores are good for the community, if we were limited to only online discount sellers the game would almost certainly die. And the online discounters trying to do do their best Walmart impression by undercutting real stores and discouraging them from carrying GW products would quite happily kill the game if they could profit from it in the short term.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2022/11/28 02:13:23


 
   
Made in gb
Highlord with a Blackstone Fortress






Adrift within the vortex of my imagination.

Gue'vesa Emissary wrote:
 Orlanth wrote:
This is fair business anyway..


Sure. It's legal. But GW is not obligated to provide them with inventory on favorable terms, and we are not obligated to call them anything other than parasites.


Clearly you are not a troll, despite accusations.
You believe in your cause and to your credit do explain yourself.
It is just that nearly everyone disagrees with you. I will say this for you, you stick to your points, try to state your case and don't intentionally offend.
If I have a complaint at your opinion it is that using the term 'parasite' is unfair.
These businessmen are undercutting brick and mortar stores for toy soldiers, not jacking up the prices of essential medicines. Undercutting competition is fair game in business. If one goes into business and a competitor undercuts one, THEY ARE DOING NOTHING WRONG.

You are also wrong.
1. GW is obligated to provide inventory on the same terms as other retailers, it is a legal requirement to do so. they can refuse service in totality, but cannot starve out some distributors and favour others with different price structures. As far as I know GW have been compliant with the law.

2. There is no 'we', only you are calling them parasites, and you are obligated to not use offensive terminology as one of the people in your category is present and has the right to being treated with common dignity. Again this complaint is made lightly as I do not thing you are making a moral judgement of forum members, but are merely being energetic in your (misplaced) belief in market equity of pricing.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2022/11/28 02:50:02


n'oublie jamais - It appears I now have to highlight this again.

It is by tea alone I set my mind in motion. By the juice of the brew my thoughts aquire speed, my mind becomes strained, the strain becomes a warning. It is by tea alone I set my mind in motion. 
   
Made in us
Water-Caste Negotiator




 Orlanth wrote:
If one goes into business and a competitor undercuts one, THEY ARE DOING NOTHING WRONG.


Legally? Correct. But from the point of view of what is best for me, and for the community as a whole? They absolutely are doing something wrong. From their point of view they are maximizing profits, from my point of view they are parasites whose failure will not be mourned. They are certainly not as bad as some other businesses but their existence is still a bad thing unless you're one of their shareholders.

You are also wrong.
1. GW is obligated to provide inventory on the same terms as other retailers, it is a legal requirement to do so. they can refuse service in totality, but cannot starve out some distributors and favour others with different price structures. As far as I know GW have been compliant with the law.


It's true that GW has obligations regarding inventory and discrimination but that doesn't mean they're required to support online discount sellers. They aren't required to sell at a percentage of MSRP that enables the discount seller's desired business model, and they are clearly allowed to have requirements to be eligible to receive product at prices below MSRP. If GW wanted to, say, refuse service to anyone who doesn't have at least 10 6x4 tables worth of gaming space they would absolutely be allowed to do that and it would be no different from their existing requirements to have a physical store location, carry the basic paint rack and starter boxes, etc.

2. There is no 'we', only you are calling them parasites, and you are obligated to not use offensive terminology as one of the people in your category is present and has the right to being treated with common dignity. Again this complaint is made lightly as I do not thing you are making a moral judgement of forum members, but are merely being energetic in your (misplaced) belief in market equity of pricing.


Who is it that is present? The one store owner I'm aware of is not primarily a GW seller and appears to be running more of a small weekend hobby project than the Walmart-of-gaming online discount sellers that dominate the GW market.
   
Made in us
Deadly Tomb Guard





Florida

Gue'vesa Emissary wrote:
 Orlanth wrote:
If one goes into business and a competitor undercuts one, THEY ARE DOING NOTHING WRONG.


Legally? Correct. But from the point of view of what is best for me, and for the community as a whole? They absolutely are doing something wrong. From their point of view they are maximizing profits, from my point of view they are parasites whose failure will not be mourned. They are certainly not as bad as some other businesses but their existence is still a bad thing unless you're one of their shareholders.

You are also wrong.
1. GW is obligated to provide inventory on the same terms as other retailers, it is a legal requirement to do so. they can refuse service in totality, but cannot starve out some distributors and favour others with different price structures. As far as I know GW have been compliant with the law.


It's true that GW has obligations regarding inventory and discrimination but that doesn't mean they're required to support online discount sellers. They aren't required to sell at a percentage of MSRP that enables the discount seller's desired business model, and they are clearly allowed to have requirements to be eligible to receive product at prices below MSRP. If GW wanted to, say, refuse service to anyone who doesn't have at least 10 6x4 tables worth of gaming space they would absolutely be allowed to do that and it would be no different from their existing requirements to have a physical store location, carry the basic paint rack and starter boxes, etc.

2. There is no 'we', only you are calling them parasites, and you are obligated to not use offensive terminology as one of the people in your category is present and has the right to being treated with common dignity. Again this complaint is made lightly as I do not thing you are making a moral judgement of forum members, but are merely being energetic in your (misplaced) belief in market equity of pricing.


Who is it that is present? The one store owner I'm aware of is not primarily a GW seller and appears to be running more of a small weekend hobby project than the Walmart-of-gaming online discount sellers that dominate the GW market.


He was meaning me. And no, this is not a small weekend hobby gig for me.

This is my full time, live-off-of income.

I'm glad you think I have shareholders and sales enough to warrant investment. If that's the case, please tell me where they are and my aforementioned i-want-to-open a brick and mortar store capital issues should disappear overnight.

I may be a one man show. I may be small. But I'm still an online discount retailer. There are multiple types and sizes of businesses in this industry and you have decided to use a broad brush in the stroke of your opinion.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2022/11/28 03:24:13


McDougall Designs Wargaming Retailer

McDougall Designs Dakka News thread.

McDougall Designs Facebook page

I am an Authorized Retailer of Wargames Atlantic and Mantic games, and carry shieldwolf and fireforge (among others) from distributors. 
   
Made in gb
Highlord with a Blackstone Fortress






Adrift within the vortex of my imagination.

Gue'vesa Emissary wrote:
 Orlanth wrote:
If one goes into business and a competitor undercuts one, THEY ARE DOING NOTHING WRONG.


Legally? Correct. But from the point of view of what is best for me, and for the community as a whole? They absolutely are doing something wrong.


You have your business ethics back to front.

1. In business to undercut ones competitor is fair game, because that is how you derive a robust and dynamic marketplace. The alternative is to have business cartel structures, which results in price control and strong-arming consumers. Undercutting appears savage, but is in reality healthy.

2. Undercutting helps the consumer, a savvy consumer will compare prices and shop accordingly, price equity disables this, disenfranchises the citizenry and penalises the less well off.

3. Free market pricing helps small businesses thrive. While big business has the advantage of economies of scale, small businesses have advantage in economies of management. Small businesses can be more dynamic as the management structure and the staff frontage are adjacent or one and the same. Small business can adapt on the fly and thus compete, often it is the only advantage they have. Price controls either from lax distribution legislation or direct pricing enforcement stifles this advantage and drives away small businesses.

I understand that you are making an ethical argument against freedom of pricing, I acknowledge that you are trying to do good. But you really have not thought through the consequences of your dogmas and why if they were implementable would be catastrophic.
Now I will add that it is unlikely you will get your way because cooler heads will prevail, but social pressure in the direction of madness is part of the modern culture, stranger things have happened, and basic business ethics are no longer taught. All level access to a free market is a soft power application of democracy, and a relic of a deeper wiser past, it can easily appear 'unfair' when looked at through a two dimensional perspective of social justice..
Your arguments could be described as symptomic of a 'useful idiot for corporatism', though I doubt you have been spoon fed them for purpose. This is the problem with ideological approaches to business, it all looks good until the little guy is cancelled and big players are given free reign.
I should ask though, where did you get your ideas?

n'oublie jamais - It appears I now have to highlight this again.

It is by tea alone I set my mind in motion. By the juice of the brew my thoughts aquire speed, my mind becomes strained, the strain becomes a warning. It is by tea alone I set my mind in motion. 
   
Made in us
Fresh-Faced New User





Sounds like a lot of you weren't around back in the wild west times when online stores sold stuff for 40-45% off. There was absolutely a reason GW instituted a MAPP on their products. There would not have been many stores that continued to stock their products and actually sell them, if that hadn't happened.

That said, the MAPP they put in place, at least here in the US, leveled the playing field between online vs. in store. Both of them serve a roll in the community, for various reasons.

Discounts are good for the consumer. Too large of a discount is bad for physical stores. I'm not sure why that is such a strange concept to grasp?
   
Made in us
Water-Caste Negotiator




 Orlanth wrote:
1. In business to undercut ones competitor is fair game, because that is how you derive a robust and dynamic marketplace. The alternative is to have business cartel structures, which results in price control and strong-arming consumers. Undercutting appears savage, but is in reality healthy.


That's why discount sellers are motivated to undercut the competition. But I don't care about what is good for the discount sellers, I care about what is best for my side of the transaction: the 40k community. And the 40k community would be better off with the discount sellers heavily restricted or driven out of the market.

2. Undercutting helps the consumer, a savvy consumer will compare prices and shop accordingly, price equity disables this, disenfranchises the citizenry and penalises the less well off.


In many cases, yes, but not all. When undercutting results in the destruction of necessary support it is bad for the consumer in the long run. Saving 50% on 40k models for a year doesn't help you all that much if the result is GW going out of business and 40k no longer being an active game.

3. Free market pricing helps small businesses thrive.


Who is talking about anything other than the free market? I'm not arguing for state intervention in the market and I don't see anyone else doing it either. GW adopting policies that push discount sellers out of the market is simply GW making decisions in a free market.

But you really have not thought through the consequences of your dogmas and why if they were implementable would be catastrophic.


I'm not sure why you think 40k products only being available at 90-100% of MSRP is "catastrophic"? What exactly are the consequences you are so concerned about?

I should ask though, where did you get your ideas?


From recognition of the simple fact that real store add more value to the community than online discount stores, and the existence of online discount stores forces those vital stores to depend on charity donations to survive. Social pressure to ignore the cheaper product and "pay where you play" is far less desirable than the online discount sellers no longer existing, and a lack of charity donations that results in stores moving 40k from "I guess we'll host it when the CCG players aren't here" to "not worth it anymore" would be a disaster for the long-term health of the game.
   
Made in gb
Highlord with a Blackstone Fortress






Adrift within the vortex of my imagination.

Tyton wrote:
Sounds like a lot of you weren't around back in the wild west times when online stores sold stuff for 40-45% off. There was absolutely a reason GW instituted a MAPP on their products. There would not have been many stores that continued to stock their products and actually sell them, if that hadn't happened.


GW at that time was mismanaged and didn't understand the internet. retailers buy stock from a manufacturers at about half RRP, then needed to shift it. Catchment limitations prevented a store from having any advantage by selling at only a fraction over the retailer purchase price. Then along came the internet.
GW being a poorly run large company were slow to react to reality. A MAPP was inevitable, but there is a limit to how high a MAPP you can set and that limit is enforced by trading regulators. Third party sellers have an entitlement to undercut, the only legal way around that is to reserve certain stock items for direct sale only. GW does this.


Tyton wrote:

Discounts are good for the consumer. Too large of a discount is bad for physical stores. I'm not sure why that is such a strange concept to grasp?


The concept is easy to grasp, and the answer is that if a product line is uncompetitive change your stockage, diversify and/or match prices. A free market does not guarantee the profitability of a stock item, and the marketeer has the right to choose the stock that offers the best return.
What you are failing to grasp are the consequences of stopping the free market working as intended.

n'oublie jamais - It appears I now have to highlight this again.

It is by tea alone I set my mind in motion. By the juice of the brew my thoughts aquire speed, my mind becomes strained, the strain becomes a warning. It is by tea alone I set my mind in motion. 
   
Made in us
Water-Caste Negotiator




 Orlanth wrote:
A MAPP was inevitable, but there is a limit to how high a MAPP you can set and that limit is enforced by trading regulators. Third party sellers have an entitlement to undercut, the only legal way around that is to reserve certain stock items for direct sale only.


There is also the use of conditions that discount sellers can't comply with without raising their prices to compensate, conditions that GW already imposes. Expanding their existing requirements on things like minimum stock to include minimum gaming space levels, maximum distance from other retail businesses, etc, would put the costs of operating a discount store on par with the costs to operate a real store and prevent undercutting.

(And I'll note here that a limit on MAPPs is a clear case of state intervention against a free market.)

The concept is easy to grasp, and the answer is that if a product line is uncompetitive change your stockage, diversify and/or match prices.


While yes, that is the rational action for a store, do you not see why this would be a catastrophe for the long-term health of the game and GW as a company? And why GW has a clear incentive to limit online discount sellers, if not drive them out of business entirely? And why we, as players, should want them to do so?

What you are failing to grasp are the consequences of stopping the free market working as intended.


GW deciding that online-only discount sellers are bad for their business and refusing to provide them with inventory would be a textbook case of actions within a free market, and it is only because of state intervention in the free market on behalf of the discount sellers that such an act could be prohibited.

This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2022/11/28 05:11:17


 
   
Made in de
Contagious Dreadnought of Nurgle




Strange discussion. The big online discounters in Germany all have a store as well (Fantasywelt, Kutami, Battlefield Berlin etc.). So, are they "parasites" and work against themselves? Or are they merely clever FLGS? There's no FLGS within reach of me so without these stores that also sell online there wouldn't be a Community in my region.
   
Made in jp
Battleship Captain






The Land of the Rising Sun

 Albertorius wrote:
Gue'vesa Emissary wrote:
Oh really? Online-only sellers are giving a place to play and other people to play with?


Yes. Online sellers have to have a brick and mortar storefront to be able to buy from GW. As a general fact, the online sellers tend to have the biggest play areas.

GW, in contrast, don't have play areas anymore in Spain, only demo mini tables, and are one man operations. By your definitions, they are the ones leeching off from the hobby.


Same in Japan. There is no actual space in my nearest GW. Just half a table that can accomodate 1000pts at best. If we want to play we either meet at a friend's place, or rent a room at the local citizens center. Plus outside of the large boxes you have to order everything online through GW's page either way at a 20 to 30% mark up because Japan... so in conclusion GW is parasiting the Japanese hobby!

M.

Edit: to be fair next month there will be a Warhammer cafe oppening in Tokyo, will it be a mix between the Bugsman's Tavern, and battlebunker of old, or just another themed cafe is still on the air.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2022/11/28 06:11:34


Jenkins: You don't have jurisdiction here!
Smith Jamison: We aren't here, which means when we open up on you and shred your bodies with automatic fire then this will never have happened.

Raxmei wrote:24ps is the range. 24". If that were the points cost then lasguns and plasma guns would cost the same amount and flamers would have a cost of "Souffle".

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Made in us
Water-Caste Negotiator




Sgt. Cortez wrote:
Strange discussion. The big online discounters in Germany all have a store as well (Fantasywelt, Kutami, Battlefield Berlin etc.). So, are they "parasites" and work against themselves? Or are they merely clever FLGS? There's no FLGS within reach of me so without these stores that also sell online there wouldn't be a Community in my region.


I will admit that online stores attached to a legitimate FLGS where the in-person sales are a significant percentage of their business and they provide all of the community support of a FLGS are a different case. I can only speak for the US, where people are buying from an ebay seller or a warehouse on the other side of the country because the FLGS they play at only has a 15% discount instead of 20% and even the online sellers who technically have an offline presence make virtually all of their sales through the online store.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2022/11/28 05:56:15


 
   
Made in au
Owns Whole Set of Skullz Techpriests






Versteckt in den Schatten deines Geistes.

Why does a store have to provide community support?

Industrial Insanity - My Terrain Blog
"GW really needs to understand 'Less is more' when it comes to AoS." - Wha-Mu-077

 
   
Made in fi
5th God of Chaos (O'rly?)





Gue'vesa Emissary wrote:

If you can afford something at 80% of MSRP you can afford it at 100% of MSRP by saving up for a bit longer.


You. Not everybody.

Or hey. If you can afford at 100% you can afford at 120%.

If you can afford 120% you can afford at 144%. Same jump.

If you can afford at 144% you can afford at 172.8%.

Etc etc

So basically according to YOUR logic there's no limit on what people can afford. Aka you have unlimited funding and think everybody in the world has same.

Here's newsflash. You are flat out wrong.

2022 painted/bought: 681/867 
   
Made in us
Water-Caste Negotiator




 H.B.M.C. wrote:
Why does a store have to provide community support?


Because if stores don't provide community support the game dies.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
tneva82 wrote:
So basically according to YOUR logic there's no limit on what people can afford.


Based on nonsense math. You and I both know there's a difference between "if you can afford a $50 kit you an afford it at $60 if you save up for four weeks instead of three" and "if you can afford a $50 kit you can afford a $50 million private jet because LOL MATH ITS JUST 10% ADDED 10 MILION MORE TIMES".

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2022/11/28 06:45:56


 
   
Made in at
Discriminating Warrior





Austria

Gue'vesa Emissary wrote:
And the 40k community would be better off with the discount sellers heavily restricted or driven out of the market.
oh sweet summer child
the 40k community would be dead over night without discount sellers

that part of the wargaming community simply exist because the majority don't pay MSRP on anything

remove discount sellers, 3D copies and pirated rules and the game dies overnight, there are not enough people paying the GW price to play a mediocre game with expensive display models to make "the community" and people will wonder off either to another game to use their existing collection or selling off their stuff and move to different wargames/hobbies

we have seen this with the LotR community when GW thought people are willing to pay the "regular" GW price


the community might be built around stores that provide gaming space, but without discounts you won't have enough people playing 40k in the first place and the wargaming community around the store won't be focused on 40k or AoS but on different games

Harry, bring this ring to Narnia or the Sith will take the Enterprise

M41 - Alternative Rules for Battles in the 41st Millennium (40k LRB Project) 
   
Made in es
Inspiring SDF-1 Bridge Officer






Tyton wrote:
Sounds like a lot of you weren't around back in the wild west times when online stores sold stuff for 40-45% off. There was absolutely a reason GW instituted a MAPP on their products. There would not have been many stores that continued to stock their products and actually sell them, if that hadn't happened.

That said, the MAPP they put in place, at least here in the US, leveled the playing field between online vs. in store. Both of them serve a roll in the community, for various reasons.

Discounts are good for the consumer. Too large of a discount is bad for physical stores. I'm not sure why that is such a strange concept to grasp?

That's not something that's happened in Europe. I don't remember ever seeing a discount over 25% for GW stuff in european online stores, and even that only for fire sales.

We don't have Miniature Market here.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Gue'vesa Emissary wrote:
 H.B.M.C. wrote:
Why does a store have to provide community support?


Because if stores don't provide community support the game dies.

That's what happened to Battletech! Oh, wait.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2022/11/28 07:24:39


 
   
Made in at
Discriminating Warrior





Austria

it did happen but long ago and this was the time where the Euro was equal to the Pound
for the short time it was cheaper to order directly from GW-UK than going with 20% off the Euro price and even so far that some bought stuff at discount in the UK and sold it off with a 30-40% discount on the Euro price and still made profit (while regular stores could not go that low)

did not last long as GW itself just charged higher shipping rates that would eat up any savings and with the exchange rate going back to normal the other online stores closed when they run out of stock

Harry, bring this ring to Narnia or the Sith will take the Enterprise

M41 - Alternative Rules for Battles in the 41st Millennium (40k LRB Project) 
   
Made in gb
Regular Dakkanaut




Gue'vesa Emissary wrote:

It's not different, but that's not the point. A real store adds accessibility vs. buying direct from GW's online store because it lets you buy stuff for immediate pickup and gives you a place to play the game. An online discount store has no accessibility advantage over buying direct from GW. One is adding value, the other is just a parasite on the hobby.

While this may be true, for the purposes of my hobby I don't require a place to play the game (I already have one of those, it's called a house) nor do I require access to a community to play with, I have those too (friends). So for me, the real stores are the parasite on *my* hobby, they're not adding any value for me. So I'd rather get stuff at a 20% discount, than pay 20% more for services I don't need.
   
Made in ch
Warped Arch Heretic of Chaos





Gue'vesa Emissary wrote:
Sgt. Cortez wrote:
Strange discussion. The big online discounters in Germany all have a store as well (Fantasywelt, Kutami, Battlefield Berlin etc.). So, are they "parasites" and work against themselves? Or are they merely clever FLGS? There's no FLGS within reach of me so without these stores that also sell online there wouldn't be a Community in my region.


I will admit that online stores attached to a legitimate FLGS where the in-person sales are a significant percentage of their business and they provide all of the community support of a FLGS are a different case. I can only speak for the US, where people are buying from an ebay seller or a warehouse on the other side of the country because the FLGS they play at only has a 15% discount instead of 20% and even the online sellers who technically have an offline presence make virtually all of their sales through the online store.


oh boy, please come over here where i live, the market is so small it's basically dominated by 1-2 stores, good ones at that but yeah either A or B.

GW direct order is not an option because despite having long term free trade agreements, gw thinks of switzerland as "rest of the world" category, hence why the average price is completely nuts beyond tarrifs. The MAPP increase will facilitate consumption tourism even more than it already is a thing, basically it's far cheaper for me to drive into germany or even italy, buy there and drive back, meanwhile the local stores will struggle more, even more than they already do due to the massive difference in salary compared to the rest of europe. (indeed this is one of the reasons why switzerland chronically disagrees with the EU about cross border work, simply because EU companies could undercut swiss ones to a massive degree.) So in other words this will target the ones which are already providing a community service quite a bit.


It also has in the past withhold delivery and made certain units Mail order only, making the FLG's suffer through dismanteling availability and ease of consumption. That was also at a time where they considered to open a store in switzerland and realising that prices are nuts decided to drop that leaving the local community basically to fend for itself.
IoW, the FLG's got worse off by GW since availability dropped of certain units f.e. WHFB bestigors, direct GW orders are clearly overpriced due to a combination of magic currency exchange and tarrifs aswell as nonsensical categories.
New MAPP will further increase the prices, facilitate consumption tourism and by extent further cripple the margins that the local stores had and they were already in a worse position than their competition.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2022/11/28 09:56:54


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A Mostly Renegades and Heretics blog.

 Daedalus81 wrote:

In the 41st millennium there is only overpriced hamberders.

 
   
Made in au
Speed Drybrushing





Newcastle NSW

Gue'vesa Emissary wrote:
 H.B.M.C. wrote:
Why does a store have to provide community support?


Because if stores don't provide community support the game dies.


That has to be the most uneducated statement I have ever heard. If your local community can't arrange games in people's homes or local community centres that pure laziness on the part of the community not the fault of online sales.

Not a GW apologist  
   
Made in gb
Regular Dakkanaut




Going back to the original topic, is this just a weird artifact of GW not ever offering an actual monetary discount on anything they sell direct?
As in, what a normal company would do is just put the prices up on these things by 5% of whatever, both RRP and the sale price to retailers, but then just sell that stuff at a 5% discount on their own store?
Doesn't that effectively achieve the same aim, and no-one would bat an eyelid except for the fact that GW never do % discount sales?
   
Made in si
Ravenous Beast Form







Gue'vesa Emissary wrote:
 Overread wrote:
The discount store allows you to buy the same product at a reduced price compared to the online GW store. Both stores online require the same number of clicks (broadly speaking) and the same personal information and details from you. So if the discount store offers a better price, then the attraction is that you can buy things at that reduced price. So that means you might get more things for the same amount of money; or get the same number of things you were going to get anyway for less cost leaving you more money in your pocket for other things.


That's a reason to buy from the discount store but it's not accessibility.

An accessibility advantage would be if, say, GW did not ship to a particular country but the discount store did. Then the discount store would be offering something that doesn't already exist and adding value to the hobby. But as it is this is not the case in any major market and the comment about discount stores being parasites stands.


My advantage for buying from a German discounter is that I don't have to butt heads with the sociopaths at customs and with GW's minimum wage trolls to get back the VAT that I have to pay despite GW claiming they ship VAT pre-paid.

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40k Potica Edition - 40k patch with reactions, suppression and all that good stuff. Feedback thread here.

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Made in be
Focused Dark Angels Land Raider Pilot



Wrexham, North Wales

The good old days where your local games shop was the contact point for other gamers, either by functioning as a gaming club or an old fashioned notice board providing contact numbers are long gone. Gamers have other ways of finding each other.

So the sentiment, while well intentioned, just doesn't stand up to modern times. Bricks n' mortar stores have to do what all shops have to - offer a service a customer is willing to pay for, and play to their strengths: friendly, personal service, a place to play if they need it and stock that people want (even if you can't match a 20%er, there is some value in having the item right there).

I'm a BNM shop owner myself. The local gaming community was here before me and it'll be here after I've closed down, so I can't claim any credit for that. Wayland, Element etc, were up and running before me, so I can't say they're stealing my business. In almost any trade, there is going to be a deep discounter somewhere, it's just a fact of modern retail.

   
Made in gb
Banelord Titan Princeps of Khorne




deano2099 wrote:
Going back to the original topic, is this just a weird artifact of GW not ever offering an actual monetary discount on anything they sell direct?
As in, what a normal company would do is just put the prices up on these things by 5% of whatever, both RRP and the sale price to retailers, but then just sell that stuff at a 5% discount on their own store?
Doesn't that effectively achieve the same aim, and no-one would bat an eyelid except for the fact that GW never do % discount sales?


I think there are some laws as to how long something can be at certain prices for before it can be advertised as "reduced" and likewise it ceased to be a "reduced" price if it's maintained at that cost for too long, which of course would then need to be passed on to their retailers.
   
Made in gb
Regular Dakkanaut




Dudeface wrote:
deano2099 wrote:
Going back to the original topic, is this just a weird artifact of GW not ever offering an actual monetary discount on anything they sell direct?
As in, what a normal company would do is just put the prices up on these things by 5% of whatever, both RRP and the sale price to retailers, but then just sell that stuff at a 5% discount on their own store?
Doesn't that effectively achieve the same aim, and no-one would bat an eyelid except for the fact that GW never do % discount sales?


I think there are some laws as to how long something can be at certain prices for before it can be advertised as "reduced" and likewise it ceased to be a "reduced" price if it's maintained at that cost for too long, which of course would then need to be passed on to their retailers.


That's true, but just because GW set the RRP, doesn't mean they have to sell at it. They'd just list it as a discount on RRP just like any other online store does.
   
Made in gb
Killer Klaivex




The dark behind the eyes.

Gue'vesa Emissary wrote:
 Orlanth wrote:
If one goes into business and a competitor undercuts one, THEY ARE DOING NOTHING WRONG.


Legally? Correct. But from the point of view of what is best for me, and for the community as a whole? They absolutely are doing something wrong. From their point of view they are maximizing profits, from my point of view they are parasites whose failure will not be mourned. They are certainly not as bad as some other businesses but their existence is still a bad thing unless you're one of their shareholders.


If discounted prices are the way to maximise profits then perhaps GW should be taking the same approach?

That would both remove the niche for online discount stores, whilst also helping the community (because GW making money apparently helps the community, somehow).


Gue'vesa Emissary wrote:
Because if stores don't provide community support the game dies.


[Citation needed.]

 blood reaper wrote:
I will respect human rights and trans people but I will never under any circumstances use the phrase 'folks' or 'ya'll'. I would rather be killed by firing squad.



 the_scotsman wrote:
Yeah, when i read the small novel that is the Death Guard unit options and think about resolving the attacks from a melee-oriented min size death guard squad, the thing that springs to mind is "Accessible!"

 Argive wrote:
GW seems to have a crystal ball and just pulls hairbrained ideas out of their backside for the most part.


 Andilus Greatsword wrote:

"Prepare to open fire at that towering Wraithknight!"
"ARE YOU DAFT MAN!?! YOU MIGHT HIT THE MEN WHO COME UP TO ITS ANKLES!!!"


Akiasura wrote:
I hate to sound like a serial killer, but I'll be reaching for my friend occam's razor yet again.


 insaniak wrote:

You're not. If you're worried about your opponent using 'fake' rules, you're having fun the wrong way. This hobby isn't about rules. It's about buying Citadel miniatures.

Please report to your nearest GW store for attitude readjustment. Take your wallet.
 
   
Made in gb
Fixture of Dakka







Gue'vesa Emissary wrote:
 Orlanth wrote:
This is fair business anyway..


Sure. It's legal. But GW is not obligated to provide them with inventory on favorable terms, and we are not obligated to call them anything other than parasites.


Actually, Sunshine, when you're posting on Dakka and referring to another member of the site, you are - rule 1 applies, after all.

2021 Plog - Here we go again... - my fifth attempt at a Dakka PLOG

My [url=https://pileofpotential.com/dysartes]Pile of Potential[/url - updates ongoing...

Gamgee on Tau Players wrote:we all kill cats and sell our own families to the devil and eat live puppies.


 Kanluwen wrote:
This is, emphatically, why I will continue suggesting nuking Guard and starting over again. It's a legacy army that needs to be rebooted with a new focal point.

Confirmation of why no-one should listen to Kanluwen when it comes to the IG - he doesn't want the IG, he want's Kan's New Model Army... 
   
 
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