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For me, the problem is I don't exactly know what's in the add-ons. They have traps, but they're not sure what they will eventually look like. Same with dungeon furniture. Same with...most of the things. I haven't seen what the rank and file minis from the add-ons will look like apart from one or two models. The rest are still concept art. Is there an update that I'm not seeing? Or pix of the actual models that I've missed?

Any help would be appreciated. I haven't gotten anything from Mantic in the past so I have no frame of reference.

 Fugazi wrote:
For me, the problem is I don't exactly know what's in the add-ons. They have traps, but they're not sure what they will eventually look like. Same with dungeon furniture. Same with...most of the things. I haven't seen what the rank and file minis from the add-ons will look like apart from one or two models. The rest are still concept art. Is there an update that I'm not seeing? Or pix of the actual models that I've missed?
Any help would be appreciated. I haven't gotten anything from Mantic in the past so I have no frame of reference.

Hi Fugazi, if you check the kickstarter page it shows images of most things, the rest are basically future promises without sculpts at the time.

I think its pretty much a given what the adventurers and most of the monster look like, though I do hope that there is variety with the monsters, four zombie trolls are ok, four identical looking zombie trolls less so. As for the furniture, it looked a bit basic to me, overly 'crisp' cheap digital sculpts, I would prefer doors that a rougher and have more detail.

As for the traps, we have very little to go on other than the hint they will not in fact all look the same. As these are resin some variety is to be expected

Thanks Orlanth. Yeah, I guess my hesitation is that the add-on/expansion Orcs and Abyssals don't have sculpts. And the sculpts and even the composition of the traps and dungeon furniture aren't set either. So they've opened the pledge manager to add more things...which is cool, but then the things that one would be adding on don't have sculpts. I'm hesitating because the add-ons don't blow me away and the concept art looks pretty static.

I take it the doors don't open, right? And the traps will all be the same type (like, there won't be 3 pit traps, 3 spike traps, etc.)?

edit: The book box prototype looks really cool.

They should have later pledge manager waves, right? I am waiting for the day when they open the PM with images of every sculpt and some production minis.

If that doesn't happen, I guess I'm out a dollar. The thing about Mantic Kickstarters is that they discourage retail sales; if I don't buy their products through the PM, I probably never will.

Orcs have been seen



more


and some Abyssals



more

Gonna assume that succubus is being wronged by the camera/monitor angle... orcs look pretty darn nice, i'll be glad to have them.

 GrimDork wrote:
Gonna assume that succubus is being wronged by the camera/monitor angle... orcs look pretty darn nice, i'll be glad to have them.

Either she has a long face and long torso, or she has Mantic Leg Syndrome.

Its on a computer to which the camera is at an angle, I reserve judgement till I have a better photo.

@DaveC: thank you. I completely missed those pix.

Huh. A couple of those photos I don't think I'd even seen, and I've followed this one pretty closely.

I'll probably grab some of the resins still. Need to see how the rest of my ebay stuff does, and how much Deadzone manages to snag from me as well.

I took the plunge on the traps and the skull piles though. Always a fan of random terrain bits.

Erm.. I didn't realise quite how fething huge the trolls are lol. The Efreet and Orcs look pretty sweet too :-)

I always enjoy seeing those orcs. They just really work well, I think. Too bad theres only a limited amount of sculpts.

 Fugazi wrote:
Thanks Orlanth. Yeah, I guess my hesitation is that the add-on/expansion Orcs and Abyssals don't have sculpts.

They are rebased version of upcoming army miniatures I think. There will be variety.
Yes you don't see them yet, but the sculpts we have seen so far are ok. Mantic have come a long way from their debut of fugly elves.

Buy unseen now, or buy at a far higher price later, or not at all. Your call.

 Fugazi wrote:

And the sculpts and even the composition of the traps and dungeon furniture aren't set either. So they've opened the pledge manager to add more things...which is cool, but then the things that one would be adding on don't have sculpts. I'm hesitating because the add-ons don't blow me away and the concept art looks pretty static.

The furniture is bland IMHO, I wouldn't buy any except what comes in other sets. You get 1x furniture in the core set, 1x with the dragon, both worth taking. A further 1x if you take Black Fortress. Black Fortress comes with its own scenarios which are in the adventurers companion, so if you don't buy it you will have number of scenarios you cant play properly. The other floorplan expansion Halls of Dorgarth doesnt come with scenarios and doubles up on yet more furniture, I didnt go for that.

 Fugazi wrote:

I take it the doors don't open, right? And the traps will all be the same type (like, there won't be 3 pit traps, 3 spike traps, etc.)?

No the doors don't open, but you do get a variety.
The traps are resin and likely will have much better detail, only one trap was shown x8, variety was promised. The traps are one of the sets I actually recommend unseen. I also recommend the resin counters, bones piles are an important part of the game (the Necro raises undead from bones piles tokens), so having sculpted ones adds flavour. Also the red clear resin skulls for hit point tokens sounds fun.

 Fugazi wrote:

edit: The book box prototype looks really cool.

It might not fit the dragon with wings attached, but yes, it sounds a cool way of storing stuff and is yet another reason to buy the three expansions.

 BobtheInquisitor wrote:

They should have later pledge manager waves, right? I am waiting for the day when they open the PM with images of every sculpt and some production minis.

I think its worth the shot, we are seeing some production minis already, if nothing else the extra $99 for a basic set in is probably worth it.
Put it this way, do you need the $99 more than the possibility you kick yourself when you cant afford in later.
If this game will be bygones to you, you can walk away, if you think you will likely regret not buying if its cool I would buy in if I were you.
If you don't like it I think you will be able to find a buyer for your game if you leave in NIB, actually you will likely make a profit.

Is that dragon with $15 to you? You can buy that separate if you like.

 BobtheInquisitor wrote:

If that doesn't happen, I guess I'm out a dollar. The thing about Mantic Kickstarters is that they discourage retail sales; if I don't buy their products through the PM, I probably never will.

Isn't that the truth. when I wrote my late email when I missed the KS I basically said either I am in at KS prices or I never will be.

Does anyone know the best way to change my delivery address now that the survey is closed?


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Never mind. I figured it out.

Got in late for the basic $100. The box pushed me into it .

Its looking like a really sexy box, my shelf is gonna have two and be thrilled to have them, maybe bookends for my gaming books.

Hey here's a dumb question... Mantic reopened the pledge manager because Reasons, but if I submitted my pledge successfully back in January, I don't need to do anything else. Right?

 GrimDork wrote:
Hey here's a dumb question... Mantic reopened the pledge manager because Reasons, but if I submitted my pledge successfully back in January, I don't need to do anything else. Right?

They sent me this follow-up email the day after I got the final notification:

Hi!

We've realised that the Dungeon Saga Pledge Manager message sent earlier may have been misleading.

If you have successfully placed an order you can safely ignore the reminder email.

Please note that the Pledge Manager acts like a traditional webstore. You cannot change your pledge after you submit it, so please choose carefully. If you place a second or third order and you will be charged in addition to the original pledge you’ve made.

Many thanks for your support!

The Mantic Team

Huh. Its funny because I read that same second mail. For some reason reading it in my inbox it didn't make the sense it did when I read it this second time. Seems like I should be fine then, thanks

 BobtheInquisitor wrote:

They should have later pledge manager waves, right? I am waiting for the day when they open the PM with images of every sculpt and some production minis.

I message them about waves they plan on ding it in one whole wave, im hoping this is going to be as fun as heroquest and plan on using the old heroquest books with it

While they might do it as one wave, I'm sure they'll reopen the PM, or at the very least allow people to throw money at them a bit later. This is Mantic, after all...

I interviewed the Mantic devs at Salute.

Half following rumours come straight from Ronnie Renton the same guy who did the 'Dungeon Saga comes in books' video. He is Mantics MD.
Half comes from one of Dungeon Sagas developers (name not asked, sorry) who showed me the miniatures samples, allowed me to inspect them and answered my specific questions.

1. The pledge manager is apparently STILL LIVE, that news came straight from the top. (Presumably you need to access it directly from the original hotlinks, though I haven't tried this yet)

2. There are five door models.
Each pack of doors contains two each of the following.
Large wooden double door, four smaller 'doors', some iron bound, some portcullis/grills. I didn't see them all.
The doors are very cheap sculpt, apply texture paint if you want them to appear anything other than 'toy' quality. They are functional as game pawns but have seen better.
The doors do not have extensive masonry around them unliike what is shown here:

You get the frame, not the wall. The finished large door looked nothing like that, there were vertical wood strips. It looked very 'IKEA' frankly. There were also large sprue connection circles on the frame (which you can file off or cover with texture paint common with individual injection molded parts. The door plastic is a hard 'vomit brown' toy quality plastic, not the same as the miniatures, much more solid.
[Edit - The double door with NOT fit the dragon, it was significantly taller and will presumably fit the trolls from what I have seen of them).




3. The production miniatures are medium-hard plastic resin and take paint well and have reasonable detail.
Because its a boardgame all miniatures except the dragon are in one piece, for the ready to play effect.
I didn't look at the furniture, just some sample undead miniatures (production) and some master sculpts for the characters, which were not exceptional, but by no means poor quality, there is enough detail to work with for a decent paint job. IMHO this is often better for those with average paint skills. The lack of fine detail means there is no fine detail to fail to paint as well as others can, so I for one am not regretting the level of quality. the characters I saw were ok guys, I dont think you will be disappointed, unless you paint to Golden Demon level and expect to pull it off your skillz with Dungeon Saga, which you might be advised to buy the resin miniatures on offer.
Each type of monster unless specified otherwise has ONE pose, so the zombie troll for example gives you three identical miniatures holding up a piece of masonry. This will suck to a degree, but the plastic can be heated in warm water and reposed, and most miniatures can be customised via the Mantic range.
The productions quality as I have seen is not a patch on Heroquest 25th, but is superior to Descent. The former is a work of art, the latter and this product as boardgames first and miniatures games second.

4. The dragon will not fit in the 'books', yes I specifically asked. The wings can be removed but it wont fit in even then. Mantic gave a 'nice' excuse saying you put the dragon on the mantlepiece because its a nice model and everything else in the two books. I will let him get away with that comment with as smile but honestly there are IMHO a glut of decent dragon minis on the market and this is by no means the best to serve as a display piece.
Still the dragon does have size and low cost (at backer prices) going for it.

5. I also asked about the board sections. They are 3mm thick, Mantic did market research and asked customers of other dungeon games for what they considered 'high quality', and came to the conclusion that the cut off between high quality and low quality yielded best results at 3mm. Space Hulk tiles are thicker, but presumably much more expensive. Apparently they went to the same card printer as FF games as customers were vocally satisfied with Descent 2nd Ed with regards to board quality.
This info is interesting as much for the processes of Mantic's market research.

6. I specifically asked about this:


This apparent mix are all from the to be released Abyssal dwarves army list, which explains why they were offered together as a $30 add on.
I asked if I could swap out the infernal guard for something else, like werewolves the answer was no. as customising the orders at that level is not something they are set up to cater for.
Also Mantic will not be selling singles either. The golems and werewolves are all either on one sprue or in one bag, from China. So no one Werewolf and two Golems etc, which I asked about as it would better fit the mix for a boardgame. These are however army miniatures sold in their unit sizes, so Mantic isn't again set up for that.

7. I asked about the board contents. The Black Fortress contains different print dungeon pieces, as does Tyrant of Halpi. The other two main expansions include extra board pieces but I don't remember if they are unique sets.
What I did find out is that Halls of Dolgarth:


- Doesn't come with any new scenarios unlike Black Fortress.
- Is a direct duplication of all the tiles in the main boxset, so you get nothing extra just 2x basic tiles for your own dungeons. As with all the expansions you likely have enough tiles it might not be that good a buy.
Mantic had not AFAIK at any time given a breakdown of what Halls of Dolgarth contained.
Those who have yet to finalise pledges might profit from this info. I for one am glad I didnt buy in this but chose Black Fortress instead.
- Black Fortress tiles should fit in the twin books along with the three formal expansions (Warlord of Galahir, Infernal Crypts, of Tyrant Halpi), but I have no assurances.

8. The boss today claimed Dungeon Saga will be available for backers in August, for retail 'later'. the only other product I asked about, the Deadzone expansion inclusing the piper farm pieces and industrial terrain will be out 'next year'.I didjnt ask about any other products specifically with regards to release dates.


This is horses mouth info from today at Salute, diluted only from memory (about 9 hours) as I took not direct notes or recording. It is as accurate as I can make it, but its up to you how much store you place by it.
Hope this all helps.

So, overall, that seems pretty good then.

From the summary there, it sounds like Dungeon Saga will be about a step up from the quality of the likes you see in FFG's recent release of Star Wars: Imperial Assault, which, to be honest, is perfectly serviceable, so a bit of a step up from there seems pretty good to me.

Not too big a step up.

Inferior to current GW plastic sculpts, inferior to resin products (naturally).

They are similar in quality to the 90's plastic sculpts from GW. I made my first Empire army out of plastic miniatures from Advanced Heroquest, Talisman, Heroquest and Battlemaster. The sculpts were consistent but crude, when painted the army had a very nice effect and that Talisman based character miniatures were good, simple sculpts look good with a simple paint job.
Descent is at that level of quality, and paints up nicely but doesnt permit a stellar paijnt job.

Dungeon Saga is similar but slightly better and with more solid plastic than Descent (which is soft toy plastic). Proportions arer good, the detail is good but not fine, what you get works, but don't expect to see all the buttons, deep face expressions and other fine detail.
My point is that because its not there your eye doesn't miss it when you look at the miniature painted.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
I should keep this seperate from the rumour report.

My impressions of Mantic at Salute was that the focus was on Kings of War 2.0, Masrs Attacks and Dreadball. With gimics like alien masks for the Mars Attacks theme.

Dungeon Saga got a large banner ad on the side of their demonstration area and a very thin display case. I asked to see the dragon, and Mr Renton admitted sheepishly that he overlooked bringing it. The DS display cabinet was 80% empty glass with the same basic miniatures we have seen before: four characters, some furniture and the zombie troll shaman boss. Mantic really wasn't thinking about that product on the day.

Mantic has specialist games syndrome with Dungeon Saga to some extent, though I dont get the impression they are abandoning it at all, they were happy to talk about it (though only one specialist on the game was present) and he did have a cardboard box with sample miniatures and answered all my questions with enthusiasm and no evasion. Still the company focus was almost entirely elsewhere which is a little odd for an autumn release after an annual show.

Thanks for taking the time for the report Orlanth, some nice details for backers.

I understand the focus upon other games that are not Dungeon Saga, after all they had products to sell for all of those on the day and DS will not be seeing retail for at least 4/5 months, possibly longer. Also with Mars Attacks being a licence among what seems like a sea of licences at Salute (most far more heavy hitting Halo/Terminator/AVP etc) maybe they felt they had to concentrate on what some may see as a "marquee" product. Given the way that Mantic like to meet deadlines there is also the possibility that they just did not have that much to show off. Past Kickstarters have seen products delivered to Mantic from the manufacturers and then packaged up and sent out in short order.

All of the Abyssal Dwarf miniatures in the Doom Guard Booster pack are from the Kings of War line and are currently available at retail.

http://www.manticgames.com/mantic-shop/kings-of-war/abyssal-dwarfs.html

And obviously cheaper if you look elsewhere.

Thank you Thraxas, my knowledge of other Mantic lines is vey limited, I even had to look up some of the game names.

For this I have no need of apology as I must limit the number games I buy in, so consequently I ignore most of what Mantic does.

Dungeon Saga is part of a favourite genre, and also RPG fuel and was a must buy for me, so my knowledge of Mantic products is somewhat lobsided.

No worries, this was one of the few Mantic Kickstarters that I did not back but am certainly interested at picking it up at retail once it is released and RPG ers like yourself can report if the game plays well or not.

I have supported Mantic from the start. They are not a perfect company but I do not think such a thing exists. I just hope they deliver on this game for all of those that supported its funding, and if they do it could be a very good money earner for them.

Some pics of production models:
https://scontent-ams.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-xpa1/v/t1.0-9/11206124_1583626831879290_4021552403819603713_n.jpg?oh=d614ed285abd97454ac45807b9b79ea1&oe=55C9E25E
https://scontent-ams.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-xap1/v/t1.0-9/11110179_1583626875212619_1636897522399045260_n.jpg?oh=712042ad1f00fda077e18cfa1f89fd79&oe=55C72917

They look ok to me.
Cant see the details and the dragon is chubby but Mantic have done a far better job of putting a dragon on a square base than GW ever did.

Looks fine to me I intend on leaving it unpainted so it's nice to see the final product. Hopefully the.miniatures held the detail well enough DBX was fine so this should be on a par. I'm glad there are no slotta bases as it spoils the look but I hope the smaller minis have enough contact points with the base and are securely glued. Speaking of bases I hope the dragons is just a place holder as it will look odd with an untextured base.