All is dust! All is dust! 8th Ed. TSons tactics!

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**orkswubwub**

So I guess since GW thought Deepstriking was too powerful they decided to allow HQ troupes who can move 60 inches (I exaggerate) and charge with 5 attacks - shining spears also still get in turn 1 etc. - so in lieu of this - are rubrics still worth it? I was considering going rubrics in the webway but they are quite pricy and aside from hiding them in a rhino all game I can't see them making their value back.

I have most of my TSons army ready to go so I think I'm stuck getting the rubrics anyway - how have people been fielding rubrics for maximum effect, are you making back the value?

**AstraVlad**

orkswubwub wrote:
how have people been fielding rubrics for maximum effect

Leave them at home.

Basically, TS Codex should be renamed as: "Codex: Ahriman and flying goats".

**Kdash**

AstraVlad wrote:
orkswubwub wrote:
how have people been fielding rubrics for maximum effect

Leave them at home.

Basically, TS Codex should be renamed as: "Codex: Ahriman and flying goats".

While it is generally true, i'd change the name to "Ahriman and his 3 Flying Princes".

Joking aside, i think Rubrics can still have a place. A plan i have for next time is taking a single, 9 man (gotta go "fluffy" 9's) squad and drop them in the webway. Turn 2 they essential jump out and sit on a midfield objective.

Yes, they are expensive, but, ap -2 bolters are extremely good, especially when you throw in VotLW if needed. They are also more survivable than most people give them credit for - often having a 2+ save outside of cover. At worst they have a 5++ save, which can also turn into a 4++ in a lot of cases.

Rhinos are also pretty handy. Double combi bolters then using the Infernal Bolts stratagem on them (sure 2CP, but, with 9CP and a mini CP farm, i didn't feel like i was too pushed for CP) you suddenly get -2ap on its bolters as well.

**AstraVlad**

Kdash wrote:
AstraVlad wrote:

Basically, TS Codex should be renamed as: "Codex: Ahriman and flying goats".

While it is generally true, i'd change the name to "Ahriman and his 3 Flying Princes".

"Ahriman and his flying circus!"

**orkswubwub**

So I guess it is a sunk/lost cause - I agree that -2 AP is attractive and the ability to VOTLW and cast is strong value but at the end with only 1 wound it seems inevitably they will pop and most armies have ways of popping marines easily.

If we were to try to make it work though - better for multiple small man squads (harder to charge, more casts, easier to fit in cover) or would you use a bigger squad (put -1 to hit on, VOTLW, webway for protection, come out of the webway and really try to melt a unit)...

**topaxygouroun i**

orkswubwub wrote:
So I guess it is a sunk/lost cause - I agree that -2 AP is attractive and the ability to VOTLW and cast is strong value but at the end with only 1 wound it seems inevitably they will pop and most armies have ways of popping marines easily.

If we were to try to make it work though - better for multiple small man squads (harder to charge, more casts, easier to fit in cover) or would you use a bigger squad (put -1 to hit on, VOTLW, webway for protection, come out of the webway and really try to melt a unit)...

Use the ones from the CSM codex in units of 5 with a soulreaper cannon each. That clocks in to 123 pts per unit and essentially gives you a 5 wound sorcerer with some badass shooting, albeit a slow moving one.

Additionally you could use units of 5 with 4 warpflamers in a rhino. But that clocks in to stupid numbers of points, and at that point why wouldn't you just get some points to summon flamers?

**Azuza001**

Kdash wrote:
backlash13 wrote:
How are people finding Daemon engines backed up by Heralds or Daemon Princes?
I've been tempted to run two Gatling forgefiends with the changeling with flickering flames sandwiched between them.

Also, do you guys find that you need a re-roll 1's babysitter with daemon engines? As the Daemonforge strategum only affects one of them.

I've not used any daemon engines myself, however Azuza001 has been having great success with a Defiler backed up by the Flickering Flames power.

My only issue with them, is that i generally want more "thousand sons" and psyker units in my lists, so i often run out of spare points for one of them :/

Yep, massive success. Favorite setup for heavy support (when I can afford to deploy it) is 2 defilers and a vortex beast. Defilers get twin laz and scourge. Flicker one and use deamonforge on it, prescience the other and keep it near reroll 1's. They can put the hurt on anything. Then summon in a changecaster (cause it's easy to do) and maybe some pink horrors if I roll well because suddenly having 20 flickering flames pinks and a changecaster there when your opponent thinks there is no screen can work incredibly well. Rest of my points go into 19 tzaangors, hq's, and as many rubrics as I can get. People don't like facing small squads of 5 rubrics when there is a squad of 20 in ds waiting to drop in and slaughter something with vets of the long war.

I love our options lol.

**Azuza001**

Played a 2k game vs dark elder using the London gt rules.

My list.

Spoiler:

His list (as best as I can remember)

Spoiler:

I won't go into great detail over everything but it was a damn close game, I lost 47-52 in the final round.

All I had left was my defiler and a single rubric. He had 2 ravagers, one with 3 wounds left, and 3 archons, each with a wound gone.

It was brutal. But what I found was I was able to hold my own. I made a tactical mistake t1 that saw one rhino get surrounded by all the bikes and then blow up killing the 2 5-man rubric teams and that hurt a lot.

But vs dark elder once I weathered the initial blitz on my lines I found the warriors themselves didn't pose much of a threat. The archons with their blasters also were not a huge threat, killing a single pink horror or a rubric a turn isn't a big deal and the defiler was able to hide in the back almost all game making their range limited to not optimal targets. The vortex beast did a fair job, I kept glamor of tzeentch on it as long as I could and it lasted until the 5th round. It managed to kill little but it buffed the pinks into a combat squad one turn (rolled to see what would happen) which was nice, it killed some warriors and a raider in cc, and it put out a fair number of mortal wounds, every little bit helps.

I need to find some blue horrors and brimstone horrors, had I had points left over for splitting then they would have been an incredibly hard to remove bunch from the center.

But yeah, if we can hold our own vs dark elder and their crazy stuff, I think we are good.

**JohnnyRotten**

That's a nice list you got, I like the models you used....nice variation. Good to see it held up quite well.

I wanted to ask you all on an advise for a beginner's 1000 Pt. list, to get a solid core for reasonable play and further expansion. I built one up of the models I like:

Battalion +3 cp

++ Unbound Army (Faction) (Chaos - Thousand Sons) [56 PL, 1000pts] ++

+ HQ +

Daemon Prince of Tzeentch [9 PL, 180pts]: Hellforged sword, Wings

Exalted Sorcerer [7 PL, 121pts]: Force stave, Inferno Bolt Pistol

+ Troops +

Chaos Cultists [3 PL, 40pts]: 9x Chaos Cultist w/ Autogun
. Cultist Champion: Autogun

Rubric Marines [14 PL, 220pts]
. Aspiring Sorcerer: Force stave, Inferno Bolt Pistol
. 8x Rubric Marine w/ Inferno Boltgun: 8x Inferno boltgun
. Rubric Marine w/ Soulreaper cannon: Soulreaper cannon

Tzaangors [7 PL, 133pts]: 18x Tzaangor w/ Tzaangor Blades
. Twistbray: Tzaangor blades

+ Elites +

Scarab Occult Terminators [11 PL, 216pts]
. Scarab Occult Sorcerer: Force stave, Inferno Combi-bolter
. 3x Terminator: 3x Inferno Combi-bolter, 3x Powersword
. Terminator w/ Heavy Weapon: Power sword, Soulreaper cannon

Tzaangor Shaman [5 PL, 90pts]: Force stave

++ Total: [56 PL, 1000pts] ++

Created with BattleScribe

I could drop the Shaman for +10 Tzaangors or Ahriman, if he's not worth using. I was thinking a DP + Ahriman was a bit overkill at 1000 Pts. I use the Ahriman model for the exalted Sorcerer though.

I woukd probably use the Dark matter crystal on the Termis....or the Tzaanzgors....but it's just a blueprint.

**Azuza001**

I like your list, at 1000 pts you have a very effective setup. Personally I would drop the shaman and get arhiman over the exalted sorcerer. That would leave you 75 pts to play with, which I would use to fill out the cultists. 10 cultists won't do much, but 27 can be a big blob to move. Or grab a rhino for the rubrics. Then put dark matter onto the dp, make him warlord with eitherstride, move him up the field t1 but keep him in 12" of the tzaangors. Use the crystal to move tzaangors up into charge range. Remember the tzaangors can move then be dark matter crystaled up further as well. Warptime the dp into charge range. Assault. T2 drop the scarab occult in to support them as well as drop the rubrics out of the rhino or deep strike them for a cp as well. That's an incredibly fast and effective force at 1k. 10 cultists hang out on an objective and screen for arhiman. T2 you can warp time him up as well, if he doesn't know warp time swap the power in using the familiar.

**JohnnyRotten**

Thanks for your input, mate. I initially wanted the 10 Cultists just for screening /obejctive-sitting, so I would probably change the Shaman into a Rhino (which I already planned to get for expansion).

If I drop the Shaman for Ahriman I could also add +10 Tzangoors for 70 pts. instead of additional cultists.

If it works out as you suggest, a T1 29 Tzaangor charge would be nothing to laugh at.

**Azuza001**

It's not, it's pretty sweet. The big thing is 29 charging in won't get them all in. That ends up leaving guys out as wounds. I find I normally get 10-12 tzaangors in on that first charge. The rubrics in the rhino is a great combo to get them into position. That's what I would probably do.

**blackmage**

Automatically Appended Next Post:

Kdash wrote:
backlash13 wrote:
How are people finding Daemon engines backed up by Heralds or Daemon Princes?
I've been tempted to run two Gatling forgefiends with the changeling with flickering flames sandwiched between them.

Also, do you guys find that you need a re-roll 1's babysitter with daemon engines? As the Daemonforge strategum only affects one of them.

I've not used any daemon engines myself, however Azuza001 has been having great success with a Defiler backed up by the Flickering Flames power.

My only issue with them, is that i generally want more "thousand sons" and psyker units in my lists, so i often run out of spare points for one of them :/

Automatically Appended Next Post:

JohnnyRotten wrote:
Kdash wrote:
Azuza001 wrote:
Great write up! Thanks for the insite. Sounds like game 1 you just got bad rolls. :(

Yeah it was definitely an out lying game, but, it happens from time to time.

Not sure it would have had much impact on the game though if Ahriman had survived or the terminators killed the scouts first round. After Magnus died, i didn't really have the ability to take on everything he had on the table :(

Nice write up, really interesting to read.
All in all your TS army seemingly did quite well. Although you wrote that you didn't feel like competing with the toptables lists, you never fought the lists your composition was designed for, so I guess it evens out.

The Contemptors are cool models, so is Magnus. I only heared good things about a 20-30 Tzangoors screen with blades, when a Shaman gets mixed in. Eventhough I don't really like the Tzeentch models, especially when a list has 9+ Enlightened.

The Best TS list of the event was just a demon soup list, I wouldn't even touch this mess nor call it anywhere near a TS list. I would prefer a pure TS list anytime, adds much more flava.

Maybe keep the Dreads in case you fight a more 'Jetbikey' list and just drop Magnus and add a Tzaangor screen + Shaman for a couple of games. Just a little change step by step and maybe you'll discover a suited alternative if you're still not satisfied with the dreads.

I mean your list didn't fail completely.

The word was spread that Termis are actually not topnotch in this edition, but their models are too cool and scarabs are clearly some of the better termi-options out there.

I think it was pretty ballsy to bring Magnus to an event, bc he's just a fire magnet and doesn't endure as much like Morty fe. .

Anyways, keep up the sweet reports.

Thanks!

I agree, a step by step approach is probably the wisest move. Definitely going to be taking another Thousand Sons list to my next event in July. I'm like you, i don't really enjoy the idea of spamming Tzaangor units, but, i'm starting to feel like i just need to bite the bullet and run with them. A couple of the lists at the GT ran 3 squads of Enlightened. Just not my cup of tea and certain doesn't feel like "traditional Thousand Sons". The top ranked pure Thousand Sons list ran 27 of them

Spoiler:

Battalion
Ahirman on disc
2x Daemon Prince with Wings (one with DMC)
1x 30 Tzaangors
2x 10 Cultists

Super Heavy
Magnus

Outrider
Daemon Prince with Wings
1x Shaman
3x 9 Enlightened with Bows

It's a strong list and placed 42nd - with 4 wins and 1 loss, getting 71 points.

I've also been considering a Daemons battalion with something like The Changling, Hearld on the Chariot (can't remember the new name), and 3 squads of horrors for screening/back field camping. It's meant to be for "cheap" CP but still rocks in at several hundred points. Thousand Sons biggest issue imo is the cost of their HQs. Cheapest comes in at 104 points, and that's just a standard Sorcerer who only offers 2 casts and 1 deny.

First step is definitely dropping Magnus, but 100% going to try running a squad of 9 Scarab Occult. I really liked dropping them in with the DMC turn 1 and i think a bigger squad will offer more in regards to just removing models and serving as a massive distraction. They are INCREDIBLY slow though, so positioning is everything.

i played this last sunday in a 30 men tournament got a 2nd place

++ Battalion Detachment +5CP (Chaos - Daemons) [51 PL, 807pts] ++

+ No Force Org Slot +

Chaos Allegiance: Chaos Undivided

+ HQ +

Poxbringer [4 PL, 70pts]

Spoilpox Scrivener [4 PL, 75pts]

+ Troops +

Nurglings [3 PL, 54pts]: 3x Nurgling Swarms

Plaguebearers [12 PL, 185pts]: Instrument of Chaos, 24x Plaguebearer, Plagueridden

Plaguebearers [12 PL, 185pts]: Instrument of Chaos, 24x Plaguebearer, Plagueridden

+ Fast Attack +

Plague Drones [16 PL, 238pts]: 6x Plague Drone, Plaguebringer

++ Outrider Detachment +1CP (Chaos - Thousand Sons) [38 PL, 742pts] ++

+ HQ +

Ahriman on Disc of Tzeentch [9 PL, 166pts]: Death Hex, Doombolt, Tzeentch's Firestorm

Daemon Prince of Tzeentch [9 PL, 180pts]: 6. High Magister, Gaze of Fate, Helm of the Third Eye, Infernal Gateway, Malefic talon, Warlord, Wings

+ Elites +

Tzaangor Shaman [5 PL, 90pts]: Force stave, Temporal Manipulation

+ Fast Attack +

Tzaangor Enlightened [5 PL, 102pts]: Aviarch, 5x Enlightened, Fatecaster greatbows

Tzaangor Enlightened [5 PL, 102pts]: Aviarch, 5x Enlightened, Fatecaster greatbows

Tzaangor Enlightened [5 PL, 102pts]: Aviarch, 5x Enlightened, Fatecaster greatbows

++ Super-Heavy Auxiliary Detachment (Chaos - Thousand Sons) [23 PL, 445pts] ++

+ Lord of War +

Magnus the Red [23 PL, 445pts]: Glamour of Tzeentch, Warptime, Weaver of Fates

++ Total: [112 PL, 1994pts] ++

the list is strong in particular, of course, if you get 1st turn, you might afford to lost Magnus, btw im not sure if in this meta, Magnus is the best choice, most armies shoot at 24" but always have some heavy weapons in the backfield , in average tables you cant easily hide Magnus, if you get a "bad" turn Magnus melts, perhaps i should switch it for couple of flying Dp's in a supreme command, just in that case my drones and enlighted are less durable cause they eat ton of fire, enlighted are cheap fast and strong, lot of shots,just bit fragile.

**Kdash**

Nice work @Blackmage!

I'm personally not that keen on adding in nurgle daemons, but it can certainly be effective!

How are you finding the Enlightened? I keep thinking about using some, but i'm not 100% on them. I'd be investing 1 exalted sorcerer, prescience and a shaman into making them auto wound on 4+ but, i dunno how worth it is.

My current choice is either -

Magnus, 38 Cultists, 18 Tzaangors and 3 Shamans

Or

9 Scarab Occult, 9 Enlightened, 18 Tzaangors, 21 Cultists and 3 Shamans.

I really like the 9 Scarab Occult - especially with a turn 1 DMC jump, it is scary and effecitve - but it means the 18 Tzaangors is in the webway or running. I'm just not sure whether dropping Magnus for them is the right choice.

I love Magnus, it's just keeping him alive is such a big problem sometimes.

**blackmage**

enlighted for their cost are pretty fine, you cant expect they survive if focused that's why i play Nurgle, if you decide to kill 18+ enlighted, in the meanwhile you get massive board control, make enlighted autowound at 4+ usually is overkill, then depend what kind of opponent ur facing
Magnus is a 50/50, in a 3 matches tournament you can expect to lost him 1-2 times but if he survived usually is gg, and the right moment you find an average shooting army usually it is a real killer, not lot of lists can handle 52 bearers 7-8 drones and Magnus.That's why i still keep Magnus in list
I m thiking about play less bearers and more nurglins like 9+9+4 nurglings bases, and bilepiper. 120+ wounds with FNP

**orkswubwub**

blackmage wrote:
enlighted for their cost are pretty fine, you cant expect they survive if focused that's why i play Nurgle, if you decide to kill 18+ enlighted, in the meanwhile you get massive board control, make enlighted autowound at 4+ usually is overkill, then depend what kind of opponent ur facing
Magnus is a 50/50, in a 3 matches tournament you can expect to lost him 1-2 times but if he survived usually is gg, and the right moment you find an average shooting army usually it is a real killer, not lot of lists can handle 52 bearers 7-8 drones and Magnus.That's why i still keep Magnus in list
I m thiking about play less bearers and more nurglins like 9+9+4 nurglings bases, and bilepiper. 120+ wounds with FNP

Are bows clearly the best choice for enlightened? I find in TSons maybe being able to tie some units up in melee you can "trade up" in value (for example even a pred clocks in 200 points). THey also have fly which encourages character sniping. I've used the bows and found them generally underwhelming.

**BoomWolf**

seems to me like they are, tying things in CC isn't nearly as valuable as just gunning them down.

**Sneggy**

I played the other day with a unit of 9 spears and 2x9 bows.

Considering the amount of attacks normal enlightened get on their disks and the fact the buff to auto wound works on them anyway I found the spears to be underwhelming. I'll likely go all bow in the future.

**blackmage**

Sneggy wrote:
I played the other day with a unit of 9 spears and 2x9 bows.

Considering the amount of attacks normal enlightened get on their disks and the fact the buff to auto wound works on them anyway I found the spears to be underwhelming. I'll likely go all bow in the future.

if you play so many enlighted might be worth play 18 with bow and 9 with spears, fact is they deliver same damage with bows and spears so no real reason to use spears beside tie up something in CaC and deliver some extra damage.

**JohnnyRotten**

My order came today and sadly I've to admit I'm pretty diappointed in the sclupts.

Don't now if I can go back generic csm-shape from the new Plague marine sculpts, eventhough I love the TS fluff much more..

**Sneggy**

What was the order?

**JohnnyRotten**

Rubrics, codex, termis and ahriman.

Sadly they're just smaller old scale und hardly dynamic. I probably could see this from the pictures, but I didnt know it would be so disappointing when I see them in person in front of me. They feel outdated after I painted up some deathguard models.

**demontalons**

I agree the poses could have been a bit better I think the sculptors took the “walking golem” idea a bit too far.

Having said that there are tons of 3rd party bits if you want to add your own personal flavor. I personally love maxminis heads and used those.

The biggest problem with making Tsons is their uniqueness doesn’t come from visual things. Nurgle is deformed and diseased, slaanesh is tentacly, Khorne is stark raving mad and covered in blood. Tsons are walking suits of armor. Personally instead of tzaangors and stuff I would have been happier with some more thousand sons unique units. Maybe a tsons unique demon engine or a dreadnought.

I’m sure we will get those in the pipeline eventually.

**JohnnyRotten**

Honestly I'm not so keen about using 3rd party stuff. I still like TS and the models aren't old by any means- but the new scale of Primaris and DG marines makes them feel outdated to start as an army.

The eventual new Marine/csm -release will most probably feature the new marinescale, too.

**demontalons**

Personally I’m ok with the scale. They’re regular marines who got turned into dust. They’re not Primaris and they’re not swollen with viruses like death guard.

**JohnnyRotten**

I know this is the TS thread and I don't want to dampen the mood. That's why I won't stretch the subject out.

It's just agonizing, the TS fluff is just glorious and the model-style is sweet and flashy. It just doesn't feel so good to put huge amounts of time and cash into an army whose sculptures feel to be obsolete in 2 years.

It's not for the fluff of scale, it's because I strongly feel that GW won't go back to the old scale in all the upcoming releases and therefor the army will feel quickly outdated. Especially because it uses the old marine models as base.

**Kdash**

So, if the new Knight rumours turn out to be true, i think i'll be dropping Magnus from most of my event lists.

4, 1 shot, missiles that ignore invuln saves are just going to make killing him even easier than it is now :(

**grouchoben**

Rubrics are the biggest of all the old marine models in scale. They stand up pretty well next to Primaris - unlike Tacs, for example.

**Azuza001**

New rubrics yes. Old rubrics no. I purchased 2 new boxes recently, one the new set the other a "new" set of the old pewter/ plastic combination. There is quite a noticeable size difference.

I have become a firm believer that a tson list backed by a small noise marine detachment is damn effective.

20 rubrics or 10 scarab occult can drop in and put out 40 shots at 12" onto a tank, hitting on 3's, wounding on 4's with veterans of the long war vs anything t7 or lower, at ap-2 for serious damage.

They also blast heavy infantry easy. The noise marines do massive anti infantry damage output.

The rest is fluff.

**JohnnyRotten**

They look a little outdated in comparison.

(sorry, I don't know why Dakka turned the image around, I don't get it to work properly.)

I'm not a propainter by all means, but I put effort into it, I want my army to look good.

If I already had a TS army painted and paid, I also wouldn't bother that much about the new scale.

It is rather about the decision to build up a new army from scratch and put several hundreds of hours and work into it, while it's models are feeling outdated. It's a shame, bc I like the fluff really. The DG unfortunately isn't very fluffright and I think the background is a huge factor of enjoyment for me.