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 ClassicCarraway wrote:

 MajorWesJanson wrote:
I've had problems with Eldar Windriders for a while now, with their free 3+ save. Especially when once Marines get redone, they will likely be the only troop bike unit in the game. But before, the Wave Serpent was more broken, occupyin the majority of attention. Now, with the ability to put heavy weapons on as many cheap eldar jetbikes as you please, they have gotten even more undercosted for their value, making a joke of other races troops and bike units (especially Dark Eldar. Why can't they get a heavy gun on every Reaver Jetbike if they pay the points? Why are Craftworld Eldar bikes so special?)

Has it been confirmed that Windriders are in fact Troops in the new codex? Seeing as DE reaver jetbikes are FA, maybe they moved the Windriders there as well. The new detachment doesn't likely have ObjectSec, so its largely irrelevent where the unit actually lands in the FOC.

Except you can always run a CAD instead of the detachments. At least that is how the necron book is worded.

 undertow wrote:

 Accolade wrote:

Sunhero wrote:
Its been two days and you scrubs are still wetting your selves over the jet bikes.
people have given plenty reasonable counters

This has always been my favorite part of the 40k hobby- watching people personally insult others when they have complaints about the game. I'm not sure what exactly it is about 40k that really brings this behavior out, but it's always so classic.

It's not just 40K, it's just about EVERY online forum, gaming-related or not.

Agreed, and also bolded online forum. In person I've had nothing but great interactions with 40K, though with the anonymity of the internet people tend to act so harsh. Then again, I'm an avid DotA and LoL player, so Dakka feels like a serene oasis at times to me...

 Korlandril wrote:


I'm just going to leave this here...

It is my greatest regret that I can only exalt this once

 Tomb King wrote:

 ClassicCarraway wrote:

 MajorWesJanson wrote:
I've had problems with Eldar Windriders for a while now, with their free 3+ save. Especially when once Marines get redone, they will likely be the only troop bike unit in the game. But before, the Wave Serpent was more broken, occupyin the majority of attention. Now, with the ability to put heavy weapons on as many cheap eldar jetbikes as you please, they have gotten even more undercosted for their value, making a joke of other races troops and bike units (especially Dark Eldar. Why can't they get a heavy gun on every Reaver Jetbike if they pay the points? Why are Craftworld Eldar bikes so special?)

Has it been confirmed that Windriders are in fact Troops in the new codex? Seeing as DE reaver jetbikes are FA, maybe they moved the Windriders there as well. The new detachment doesn't likely have ObjectSec, so its largely irrelevent where the unit actually lands in the FOC.

Except you can always run a CAD instead of the detachments. At least that is how the necron book is worded.

While true, I haven't seen any concrete evidence that shows windriders as being Troops (granted, I easily could have overlooked a screenshot somewhere). The only screenshots I've seen are the options and costs. My point was that just because there is a Guardian host that is all windriders doesn't equal them being Troops, because the formation doesn't care what slot the unit fills because OS is likely not a perk for that formation and detachment (and everything is scoring now).

Well we have seen that warlocks have lost telepathy, so its seems like only farseers might be able to roll that. We also have no idea on what the new psychic powers will be, once again that is not something we can bank on at this point in time.

 TheKbob wrote:

 Leth wrote:
I was initiallly in the OMG world is ending camp.

However after completing my Ice bucket challenge and listening to some of the points I can see how while it would be difficult for the eldar to maintain that level of fire power. If they are jinking they cant shoot. Otherwise they die like marines, and as we know, marines die quick. With good terrain(even having JSJ) and it is going to be hard to get LOS with that many bike models as well as hide that many bike models.

I think that I will have to wait and see on the D weapons but I think as long as the wave serpent gets shut down, even with the D-weapons I will have to see what happens as well as how the points pan out.

The bikes (and eldar as a whole) cant do EVERYTHING at once. They cant keep OS and take a bunch of wraithknights, they cant have a jink save AND have overwhelming firepower. So on and so forth.

I am still skeptical, but I can see it having so many holes(and I have already found some hard counters) that I doubt it will dominate the tournament scene. Wave serpents made it so unskilled players could do okay, but would fall apart when their counter showed up, I think bikes will be the same considering the amount of terrain I see now-a-days.

Also one of my friends told me to quit being a little bitch and start thinking about how to solve the problem instead of bitching about the problem.

Sure. You're wrong, but sure.


Marines suck because they are slow and are limited to S4 weaponry with peak effectiveness at 12".

Eldar Jetbikes can be 48" from a target, engage at full strength and then be, on average, 43" away from said target. And if you have limited fire that can shoot effectively at 43" away at also Ap3... Then likely you're firing something with limited power. Cool, you killed a few. I won't jink as the remaining dudes still can shoot out another unit next turn.

I appreciate the last comment. It's being totally not Scrub. However, this is an instance of you'll need something that can be high volume, accurate, low AP, plentiful and both able to soak S6 and SD shots. Good luck.

And you can be the hero if you list said hard counters. Because 100+ S6 shot is about half of the Eldar army. The rest will still be nut kicking hard.

He is wrong and you are right... because!?

First of all, marines do not suck. They are the standard for what is a solid unit/set of stats. Marines are also not limited to S4 weaponry as you can give them all sort of special weapons depending on the squad chosen and Drop Pods tend to get Marines into that 12" peak effectiveness you speak of.

On the other hand, the comparison of Windriders to Marines in terms of survivability is appropriate because both have T4 and a 3+ save and experience tells us that T4/3+ saves will only go so far in terms of surviving incoming fire. Therefore, with sufficient firepower, Windriders can be subdued in much the same way Marines can.

Second of all, while Windriders have an effective range of 48" and can be on average 43" away, there is a lot of shooting that can still reach out and hurt Jetbikes. A lot of weapons are either 24-36" on platforms that can move up to 12" thereby matching the Windrider threat range or are 48"+ and usually have a lower AP value.

Indeed, Tau Riptides, Broadsides and units with a buffmander should do sufficient damage to Jetbikes to make sure they die in droves. Seriously, Tau shooting from a well built army can devastate an equal points in bikes. Necrons have a good amount of resilience and can force the Eldar into some difficult positions with what mobility/options Necrons have, Eldar even have good options against Jetbikes and so forth... Flyrants will still be a problem for Jetbikes as well and the list goes on.

Really, anyone can go "but 100 S6 shots!!!" and that is only math-hammer talking. The reality of a 40k game are not some numbers crunched in a vacuum. Player skill, army composition, who goes first, mission objectives and terrain are all factors that make simply saying "but infinity+1 S6 shots=unbeatable!" rather silly.

Seriously, once people start playing with and against the new Eldar, I am sure that things will calm down. I even suspect that the D weapon thing isn't going to be that big of a deal because unlike the Lynx and so forth (which has Eldar Holo-fields and can be placed on a Skyshield), the Wraith units are relatively easy to kill with conventional weaponry and so they may destroy something but then get destroyed in return whereas the real problem D units were things that could cover multiple units and potentially erase them while being REALLY hard to destroy themselves.

 Leth wrote:
Well we have seen that warlocks have lost telepathy, so its seems like only farseers might be able to roll that. We also have no idea on what the new psychic powers will be, once again that is not something we can bank on at this point in time.

Then bank on shadowseers at least joining squads to keep them from being shot.

 ClassicCarraway wrote:

 Tomb King wrote:

 ClassicCarraway wrote:

 MajorWesJanson wrote:
I've had problems with Eldar Windriders for a while now, with their free 3+ save. Especially when once Marines get redone, they will likely be the only troop bike unit in the game. But before, the Wave Serpent was more broken, occupyin the majority of attention. Now, with the ability to put heavy weapons on as many cheap eldar jetbikes as you please, they have gotten even more undercosted for their value, making a joke of other races troops and bike units (especially Dark Eldar. Why can't they get a heavy gun on every Reaver Jetbike if they pay the points? Why are Craftworld Eldar bikes so special?)

Has it been confirmed that Windriders are in fact Troops in the new codex? Seeing as DE reaver jetbikes are FA, maybe they moved the Windriders there as well. The new detachment doesn't likely have ObjectSec, so its largely irrelevent where the unit actually lands in the FOC.

Except you can always run a CAD instead of the detachments. At least that is how the necron book is worded.

While true, I haven't seen any concrete evidence that shows windriders as being Troops (granted, I easily could have overlooked a screenshot somewhere). The only screenshots I've seen are the options and costs. My point was that just because there is a Guardian host that is all windriders doesn't equal them being Troops, because the formation doesn't care what slot the unit fills because OS is likely not a perk for that formation and detachment (and everything is scoring now).

Looks like the troops symbol to me.

mr_draken wrote:

 ClassicCarraway wrote:

 Tomb King wrote:

 ClassicCarraway wrote:

 MajorWesJanson wrote:
I've had problems with Eldar Windriders for a while now, with their free 3+ save. Especially when once Marines get redone, they will likely be the only troop bike unit in the game. But before, the Wave Serpent was more broken, occupyin the majority of attention. Now, with the ability to put heavy weapons on as many cheap eldar jetbikes as you please, they have gotten even more undercosted for their value, making a joke of other races troops and bike units (especially Dark Eldar. Why can't they get a heavy gun on every Reaver Jetbike if they pay the points? Why are Craftworld Eldar bikes so special?)

Has it been confirmed that Windriders are in fact Troops in the new codex? Seeing as DE reaver jetbikes are FA, maybe they moved the Windriders there as well. The new detachment doesn't likely have ObjectSec, so its largely irrelevent where the unit actually lands in the FOC.

Except you can always run a CAD instead of the detachments. At least that is how the necron book is worded.

While true, I haven't seen any concrete evidence that shows windriders as being Troops (granted, I easily could have overlooked a screenshot somewhere). The only screenshots I've seen are the options and costs. My point was that just because there is a Guardian host that is all windriders doesn't equal them being Troops, because the formation doesn't care what slot the unit fills because OS is likely not a perk for that formation and detachment (and everything is scoring now).

Looks like the troops symbol to me.

Yep, sure is. That's one I hadn't seen yet....welp, let me join the rest in saying Windriders are broke as $%#@ then

 Leth wrote:
Well we have seen that warlocks have lost telepathy, so its seems like only farseers might be able to roll that. We also have no idea on what the new psychic powers will be, once again that is not something we can bank on at this point in time.

Warlocks never could take telepathy. Only Runes of Battle (and Daemonology when that came out).

Psychic powers are nothing to rely on. That's why.

Heads up, warseer poster is claiming to have the codex and is dropping info

So far:
Would love to know if the farseer powes have changed. Death Mission I'm looking at you...
Yes they have:

Primaris: Guide (no changes)
1: Executioner: Focussed witch fire. 24". Target receives 3 hits, always wounds on 2+. If target diez, another model receives 2 hits. If target dies another gone receives 1 hit.
2: Fatality: You re-roll to wound or to penetrate when firing at target unit. 24"
3: Will of Asuryan: 12" bubble of Fear and Adamantium will
4: Fortune: As always
5: Mind fight: Mainly the same.
6: Ancestral Storm: Warp charges 3 (5" blast), Warp charge 4 (Apoc blast), 24", Haywire, wounds 2+

All Distortion weapons are Strenght D. All of them. But the scythes apply a -1 when rolling on the D table, and the strenght is considered to be 4 when calculating the instant death.

Banshees add +3" when running or assaulting. They igoner the I penalti when assualting through cover.

There are no "chapter tactics".

Wraithknight is LoW (295 points), Jump gargantuan creature
Wraithguard/blades are not tropos anymore if taking a Spiritseer (Only Elites)
Crimson hunter basically the same, but 140 points only.

Sword + Shield: Free (Sword is Strenght D)
Solar cannon + Shield: Free
And the Wraith Cannons?
Is the equipment by default.

Roughly 40 obsec bikes, 2 divination jetseers hoping for misfortune, but ok with Primaris, and a firebase support cadre with spammed EWO, all in a void shield generator field. Bam.

I don't think I can make a list from the entirety of my codex that could handle that. Maybe with some handicap points?

 mortetvie wrote:

 TheKbob wrote:

 Leth wrote:
I was initiallly in the OMG world is ending camp.

However after completing my Ice bucket challenge and listening to some of the points I can see how while it would be difficult for the eldar to maintain that level of fire power. If they are jinking they cant shoot. Otherwise they die like marines, and as we know, marines die quick. With good terrain(even having JSJ) and it is going to be hard to get LOS with that many bike models as well as hide that many bike models.

I think that I will have to wait and see on the D weapons but I think as long as the wave serpent gets shut down, even with the D-weapons I will have to see what happens as well as how the points pan out.

The bikes (and eldar as a whole) cant do EVERYTHING at once. They cant keep OS and take a bunch of wraithknights, they cant have a jink save AND have overwhelming firepower. So on and so forth.

I am still skeptical, but I can see it having so many holes(and I have already found some hard counters) that I doubt it will dominate the tournament scene. Wave serpents made it so unskilled players could do okay, but would fall apart when their counter showed up, I think bikes will be the same considering the amount of terrain I see now-a-days.

Also one of my friends told me to quit being a little bitch and start thinking about how to solve the problem instead of bitching about the problem.

Sure. You're wrong, but sure.


Marines suck because they are slow and are limited to S4 weaponry with peak effectiveness at 12".

Eldar Jetbikes can be 48" from a target, engage at full strength and then be, on average, 43" away from said target. And if you have limited fire that can shoot effectively at 43" away at also Ap3... Then likely you're firing something with limited power. Cool, you killed a few. I won't jink as the remaining dudes still can shoot out another unit next turn.

I appreciate the last comment. It's being totally not Scrub. However, this is an instance of you'll need something that can be high volume, accurate, low AP, plentiful and both able to soak S6 and SD shots. Good luck.

And you can be the hero if you list said hard counters. Because 100+ S6 shot is about half of the Eldar army. The rest will still be nut kicking hard.

He is wrong and you are right... because!?

First of all, marines do not suck. They are the standard for what is a solid unit/set of stats. Marines are also not limited to S4 weaponry as you can give them all sort of special weapons depending on the squad chosen and Drop Pods tend to get Marines into that 12" peak effectiveness you speak of.

On the other hand, the comparison of Windriders to Marines in terms of survivability is appropriate because both have T4 and a 3+ save and experience tells us that T4/3+ saves will only go so far in terms of surviving incoming fire. Therefore, with sufficient firepower, Windriders can be subdued in much the same way Marines can.

Second of all, while Windriders have an effective range of 48" and can be on average 43" away, there is a lot of shooting that can still reach out and hurt Jetbikes. A lot of weapons are either 24-36" on platforms that can move up to 12" thereby matching the Windrider threat range or are 48"+ and usually have a lower AP value.

Indeed, Tau Riptides, Broadsides and units with a buffmander should do sufficient damage to Jetbikes to make sure they die in droves. Seriously, Tau shooting from a well built army can devastate an equal points in bikes. Necrons have a good amount of resilience and can force the Eldar into some difficult positions with what mobility/options Necrons have, Eldar even have good options against Jetbikes and so forth... Flyrants will still be a problem for Jetbikes as well and the list goes on.

Really, anyone can go "but 100 S6 shots!!!" and that is only math-hammer talking. The reality of a 40k game are not some numbers crunched in a vacuum. Player skill, army composition, who goes first, mission objectives and terrain are all factors that make simply saying "but infinity+1 S6 shots=unbeatable!" rather silly.

Seriously, once people start playing with and against the new Eldar, I am sure that things will calm down. I even suspect that the D weapon thing isn't going to be that big of a deal because unlike the Lynx and so forth (which has Eldar Holo-fields and can be placed on a Skyshield), the Wraith units are relatively easy to kill with conventional weaponry and so they may destroy something but then get destroyed in return whereas the real problem D units were things that could cover multiple units and potentially erase them while being REALLY hard to destroy themselves.

So you say first of all marines don't suck.....fallowed by marines are not hard to kill.... In circles you go. Drop pods are not a valid argument, they are a one use item and an additional tax. Scatriders have any time table wide movement gratis. Hell, even without the turbo boost they have a 19" average move a turn thanks to yet more movement they gain in the assault phase because, reasons!



Then you continue by suggesting "Tau Riptides, Broadsides and units with a buffmander should do sufficient damage to Jetbikes to make sure they die in droves."

A. That's simply not true considering broadsides have 36" range weapons that comically enough are not on a relentless platform. Meaning those jetbikes can guarantee to fire and jump out of range. Your other examples require pairing multiple slot selections and a ton opf points which leads to:

B. You continue to demonstrate your lack of understanding in game balance by ignoring the fact that these guys are troops. Other armies struggle to find entries with similar offense per point in the he3avy slots, which you know, are more limited and require less then stellar troops to acquire.

All your examples share a common flaw, none are troops slot options.

Here's an idea, share with us an example of one 1850 list that isn'ty tailored that has a remote shot at holding up to whats been leaked. Otherwise your points are going to continue to fall on deaf ears.

A lot of weapons are either 24-36" on platforms that can move up to 12" thereby matching the Windrider threat range or are 48"+ and usually have a lower AP value.

Care to share with us all these units we are missing, from where I stand I pay 26 ppm for a scourge with a blaster, consider a solid unit yet hilariously out performed by the windrider for example. That's a dedicated fire support unit on a mobile platform btw, and falls flat in comparison.

Oh good. A garg creature with str D shooting for just under 300 points. And elites with str D shooting. Yeah. The game needed that.

295 for a wraithknight is just absurdly low... T8 with 6+ on poison now, and immunity to ID AND upgrade to Str D for that ridiculously low point increase.

Do they even care about balance anymore...?

mr_draken wrote:
Heads up, warseer poster is claiming to have the codex and is dropping info

So far:
Would love to know if the farseer powes have changed. Death Mission I'm looking at you...
Yes they have:

Primaris: Guide (no changes)
1: Executioner: Focussed witch fire. 24". Target receives 3 hits, always wounds on 2+. If target diez, another model receives 2 hits. If target dies another gone receives 1 hit.
2: Fatality: You re-roll to wound or to penetrate when firing at target unit. 24"
3: Will of Asuryan: 12" bubble of Fear and Adamantium will
4: Fortune: As always
5: Mind fight: Mainly the same.
6: Ancestral Storm: Warp charges 3 (5" blast), Warp charge 4 (Apoc blast), 24", Haywire, wounds 2+

All Distortion weapons are Strenght D. All of them. But the scythes apply a -1 when rolling on the D table, and the strenght is considered to be 4 when calculating the instant death.

Banshees add +3" when running or assaulting. They igoner the I penalti when assualting through cover.

There are no "chapter tactics".

Wraithknight is LoW (295 points), Jump gargantuan creature
Wraithguard/blades are not tropos anymore if taking a Spiritseer (Only Elites)
Crimson hunter basically the same, but 140 points only.

Sword + Shield: Free (Sword is Strenght D)
Solar cannon + Shield: Free
And the Wraith Cannons?
Is the equipment by default.

D Cannons better be 24" range and be 150 points a piece. If that's true.

It's not.

That would be insane.

Unless that guy offers proof that he has the actual physical codex I disbelieve.

 Tomb King wrote:

 Leth wrote:
Well we have seen that warlocks have lost telepathy, so its seems like only farseers might be able to roll that. We also have no idea on what the new psychic powers will be, once again that is not something we can bank on at this point in time.

Then bank on shadowseers at least joining squads to keep them from being shot.

and to get said shadow seers requires a solid 500ish points invested in harlequins.

Also its not immunity to ID, it just causes d3 wounds instead. Very powerful but a subtle difference none the less.

 Leth wrote:

 Tomb King wrote:

 Leth wrote:
Well we have seen that warlocks have lost telepathy, so its seems like only farseers might be able to roll that. We also have no idea on what the new psychic powers will be, once again that is not something we can bank on at this point in time.

Then bank on shadowseers at least joining squads to keep them from being shot.

and to get said shadow seers requires a solid 500ish points invested in harlequins.

If only we could get the bikes and farseers for under 1000 points....oh wait

Its iuchiban on warseer.... he has done this before, gotten his hands on codecies really early and dropped a tonne of info. im inclined to believe

295 with free upgrades is just around my expectations given the leaks so far.... Stupid.



Suddenly my fluffy centerpiece project became TFG option numero uno. I guess I can still enter him into the painting competitions though I am less motivated to work on him now.

Hmm, he says the serpent shield is still 60" ignore cover, but now s6, 2d6 shots, and can only shoot once a game.

Shining spears have 4+ cover save if they moved the previous turn. 25/model. Lance is: 6", F6, Assault 1, Lance. In combat: +3F when charging. Both are AP3.

Wraithblades: Same but 30/model and have Rage.

Hemlock: Same cost, has Lvl 2, can choose Daemonology (Sacred), Telepathy and Battle Runes. D-Scythes are a special D weapon as mentioned above,.

Serpents are 110 points, and shield is now: S6, Assault 2D6, Ignores cover, One use only.

It's nice that the smaller guys get -1 on the D weapons so they can't roll a 6 and erase anything from existence... But I don't think the bog standard vehicle in the game needed to see shots that auto-pen on 3's for d3 hp a piece.

Someday you'll be okay again, land raiders...some day.

niv-mizzet wrote:
Hmm, he says the serpent shield is still 60" ignore cover, but now s6, 2d6 shots, and can only shoot once a game.

Wow, so still insane. Sure it's one use only and S6 but now it basically averages the highest result from before. The ignore cover is the biggest issue, it still basically kills every skimmer in my DE at will from anywhere. Oh well, better then nothing only I don't think it matters overall.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

mr_draken wrote:
Shining spears have 4+ cover save if they moved the previous turn. 25/model. Lance is: 6", F6, Assault 1, Lance. In combat: +3F when charging. Both are AP3.

Wraithblades: Same but 30/model and have Rage.

Hemlock: Same cost, has Lvl 2, can choose Daemonology (Sacred), Telepathy and Battle Runes. D-Scythes are a special D weapon as mentioned above,.

Serpents are 110 points, and shield is now: S6, Assault 2D6, Ignores cover, One use only.

Shining spears should have been the ones with the scatter laser upgrade.

niv-mizzet wrote:
Hmm, he says the serpent shield is still 60" ignore cover, but now s6, 2d6 shots, and can only shoot once a game.

I...

I think I can live with that.

Besides... WS won't be the rage this time around.

Still waiting to hear about the warhost benefits. Several people have asked but he hasn't thrown them out yet.

And as for proof, he just posted pictures (page 71 of the warseer rumor post) of the codex in hand....

yup.

He has the book.

niv-mizzet wrote:
It's nice that the smaller guys get -1 on the D weapons so they can't roll a 6 and erase anything from existence... But I don't think the bog standard vehicle in the game needed to see shots that auto-pen on 3's for d3 hp a piece.

Someday you'll be okay again, land raiders...some day.

he didn't say smaller, he said templates. Regular wraith guard still delete stuff whole sale. Honestly D strength wall of flame and templates still makes the scythes stupid good if they remained ap2. "Oh yea btw these are the weak ones they only cause 3+d3 wounds on a 3+"