Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

 GreaterGood? wrote:

 Otto von Bludd wrote:
I think high T spam list in general counter AM. All our high strength weaponry is easy to remove, and/or is very inaccurate. It's very easy to overwhelm AMs ability to deal with enemy armor. Yes we can have 14 cannons but they will not survive turn 1 and of any that do only 50% will actually hit the target.

I've not even come close to losing against toughness spam. Melta, and or Plasma scions drop in and kill everything, with only about 500 points dedicated to it, I'm dropping in 21 plasma guns with orders, and overcharging killing everything.

True, but Scions are one of, if not the, best units in the game right now and will likely be toned down so I'm not running any of them. It is also possible to deny them their alpha strike with careful placement. So other than Scions, which are a bit of an outlier and will likely be toned down, what do we have reliably battle high T spam?

More unit review time!

I tried a couple of units I didn't use before.

It was a 1500 point friendly game vs Eldar.
He had a lot three Wave Serpents filled with either Wraithblades or Wraithguard, a Fire Prism, some Dark Reapers and some Snipers.

Here's the new units I used:

Budget Guardsmen squads:
With a Grenade Launcher and a Heavy Bolter, these squads are some of out cheapest infantry options.

Are they good? Eh. The grenade launcher, like my last explanation, is not good. The frag version is only slightly better than a basic lasgun and with FRF + rapid-fire range, the lasgun is straightup better.

The krak version is pretty poor too. Even for what is supposed to be an anti-MEQ, it still wounds on 3+ and has only -1ap.

The Heavy Bolter? It was ok. They mostly shot at the Wraithguard which was a pretty good target for them. If you'r anti-tank is sorted, I would recommend getting a LOT of these. I mean, they are soooo cheap, just spam them. Should help vs if the enemy has a horde army too.


Banewolves:
I tried two Banewolves in the match and they did... ok. I can't really say a lot about them.

They are a weird mixed bunch. Wounding anything but vehicles on 2+ with ap-3 sounds great, but then you get.... 1 dmg per wound.

To make the most out its weapon, you should be shooting it at high T fleshy targets. Guess what, those will pretty much always have two or more wounds. Which means the Hellhound with it's 2dmg gun will probably be better.

Hydra:
So there were plenty of key-word fly target to shoot at with my Hydra and let me tell you, it is a blast to finally have something that hits on 3+.

Unfortunately, I didn't get a good taste of what it can do. The Wave Serpent all had their shields, which means that the normal 2dmg from the autocannons became 1dmg. I'll try him again, that many autocannon shots at bs 3+ does sound pretty good.
uuuuuntil you face an army with 0 fly keywords in it and it's hitting on 5+....

Leman Russ Vanquishers:
Ah yes, the famous 'worst tank of the new AM'. I tried an odd combination of a regular tank commander and a normal leman russ, both with Vanquishers.

Why not Pask you ask? Like I said its was a friendly game, and Pask does turn the try-hardness of any Guard army up a notch.

However, I was suprised by their effectiveness. Maybe I got lucky on my rolls, but to me it really felt like they could put out reliable anti-tank damage.
I think the one-shot instead of the Batllecannon's D6 shots actually isn't too bad. On top of that the extra AP was quite noticable, leaving my enemy with only a petty 6+ save.

This resulted to something interesting I've noticed, the higher the AP of your weapon, the less likely the enemy will use a command point to re-roll a save. Even if it means taking a lot of damage, they won't risk a command re-roll for only a 6+ save. They will however more than likely re-roll a 5+.

And then 2D6 take the highest for damage added another layer of reliability to these babies.

But are they better than the Battle-cannons? Eh, dunno. I'm sure Battle-cannons on a whole will perform better, as they can hit a better variety of targets and a poor roll on the amount of shots can be fixed with a command re-roll.

So that's it, another review of my 'uncommon Guard units!' Let me know what you think and if you want a more detailed version of the battle.

 Otto von Bludd wrote:

 GreaterGood? wrote:

 Otto von Bludd wrote:
I think high T spam list in general counter AM. All our high strength weaponry is easy to remove, and/or is very inaccurate. It's very easy to overwhelm AMs ability to deal with enemy armor. Yes we can have 14 cannons but they will not survive turn 1 and of any that do only 50% will actually hit the target.

I've not even come close to losing against toughness spam. Melta, and or Plasma scions drop in and kill everything, with only about 500 points dedicated to it, I'm dropping in 21 plasma guns with orders, and overcharging killing everything.

True, but Scions are one of, if not the, best units in the game right now and will likely be toned down so I'm not running any of them. It is also possible to deny them their alpha strike with careful placement. So other than Scions, which are a bit of an outlier and will likely be toned down, what do we have reliably battle high T spam?

I'd be honestly surprised if Scions keep their deep strike in the IG codex without it costing some points. I think removing deep strike from scions would instantly fix them as a unit. Then you have to either bring their Taurox or Valkyrie, which is way more fluffy.

If it was up to me, I'd bring out a new version of Scions with jump packs. That would fill a slot that IG is completely missing right now, and be a route for deep strike without overall nerfing scions.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Doctoralex wrote:

Spoiler:

More unit review time!

I tried a couple of units I didn't use before.

It was a 1500 point friendly game vs Eldar.
He had a lot three Wave Serpents filled with either Wraithblades or Wraithguard, a Fire Prism, some Dark Reapers and some Snipers.

Here's the new units I used:

Budget Guardsmen squads:
With a Grenade Launcher and a Heavy Bolter, these squads are some of out cheapest infantry options.

Are they good? Eh. The grenade launcher, like my last explanation, is not good. The frag version is only slightly better than a basic lasgun and with FRF + rapid-fire range, the lasgun is straightup better.

The krak version is pretty poor too. Even for what is supposed to be an anti-MEQ, it still wounds on 3+ and has only -1ap.

The Heavy Bolter? It was ok. They mostly shot at the Wraithguard which was a pretty good target for them. If you'r anti-tank is sorted, I would recommend getting a LOT of these. I mean, they are soooo cheap, just spam them. Should help vs if the enemy has a horde army too.


Banewolves:
I tried two Banewolves in the match and they did... ok. I can't really say a lot about them.

They are a weird mixed bunch. Wounding anything but vehicles on 2+ with ap-3 sounds great, but then you get.... 1 dmg per wound.

To make the most out its weapon, you should be shooting it at high T fleshy targets. Guess what, those will pretty much always have two or more wounds. Which means the Hellhound with it's 2dmg gun will probably be better.

Hydra:
So there were plenty of key-word fly target to shoot at with my Hydra and let me tell you, it is a blast to finally have something that hits on 3+.

Unfortunately, I didn't get a good taste of what it can do. The Wave Serpent all had their shields, which means that the normal 2dmg from the autocannons became 1dmg. I'll try him again, that many autocannon shots at bs 3+ does sound pretty good.
uuuuuntil you face an army with 0 fly keywords in it and it's hitting on 5+....

Leman Russ Vanquishers:
Ah yes, the famous 'worst tank of the new AM'. I tried an odd combination of a regular tank commander and a normal leman russ, both with Vanquishers.

Why not Pask you ask? Like I said its was a friendly game, and Pask does turn the try-hardness of any Guard army up a notch.

However, I was suprised by their effectiveness. Maybe I got lucky on my rolls, but to me it really felt like they could put out reliable anti-tank damage.
I think the one-shot instead of the Batllecannon's D6 shots actually isn't too bad. On top of that the extra AP was quite noticable, leaving my enemy with only a petty 6+ save.

This resulted to something interesting I've noticed, the higher the AP of your weapon, the less likely the enemy will use a command point to re-roll a save. Even if it means taking a lot of damage, they won't risk a command re-roll for only a 6+ save. They will however more than likely re-roll a 5+.

And then 2D6 take the highest for damage added another layer of reliability to these babies.

But are they better than the Battle-cannons? Eh, dunno. I'm sure Battle-cannons on a whole will perform better, as they can hit a better variety of targets and a poor roll on the amount of shots can be fixed with a command re-roll.

So that's it, another review of my 'uncommon Guard units!' Let me know what you think and if you want a more detailed version of the battle.

I took a regular Leman Russ in my last game and was extremely disappointed in it. I only got 3 battle cannon shots off with it, and I think overall it killed two marines. The enemy easily killed it with hellfire missiles and a soulreaper cannon. And that was with me maneuvering successfully staying out of his multimelta range. Maybe I'd have had better luck if I could have found some cover, but there wasn't any available for my russ.

It tanked some shots, but it was otherwise pretty ineffective for a 180 point unit. I just kept thinking how much I'd rather have brought a taurox prime.

So purely hypothetically if plasma guns didn't exist (say they hit the nerfbat hard) what would you guys think of meltaguns and HSVGs on Tempestus Scions?

Would it be worth to bring melta/HSVG scions if plasma was gone or would you just not bother with scions?

Meltas are still good, especially against T7.

I'm not sold on the HSVG though. It being Heavy kills it for me on Scions.

The HSVG is quite fun in my experience as it threatens pretty much anything while primarily seems to do well against MEQ and GEQ. Its heavy profile is troublesome but a four man Command Squad kitted out with these things is just nasty, flinging 16 S4 AP-2 shots at a decent range and are auto-include for me. Haven't played with meltas yet so I can't comment on them.

BAO winner Brandon Grant

Invinciblebug wrote:
So purely hypothetically if plasma guns didn't exist (say they hit the nerfbat hard) what would you guys think of meltaguns and HSVGs on Tempestus Scions?

Would it be worth to bring melta/HSVG scions if plasma was gone or would you just not bother with scions?

I'd probably just use melta.

I might give HSVGs a go, but honestly the fact that they're Heavy on a unit that's supposed to be highly mobile just kills them for me.

 GreaterGood? wrote:

 Otto von Bludd wrote:
I think high T spam list in general counter AM. All our high strength weaponry is easy to remove, and/or is very inaccurate. It's very easy to overwhelm AMs ability to deal with enemy armor. Yes we can have 14 cannons but they will not survive turn 1 and of any that do only 50% will actually hit the target.

I've not even come close to losing against toughness spam. Melta, and or Plasma scions drop in and kill everything, with only about 500 points dedicated to it, I'm dropping in 21 plasma guns with orders, and overcharging killing everything.

Eventually, people will learn to bubble wrap !


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 axisofentropy wrote:
BAO winner Brandon Grant

I'd have docked him tournie points for misspelling Commissar

Hang on, it's also an illegal list i think. Chainsword isn't an option for Commissars, gotta buy a power weapon ?

MaxT wrote:


Hang on, it's also an illegal list i think. Chainsword isn't an option for Commissars, gotta buy a power weapon ?

You only have to buy a power weapon for the lord Commissar not the regular one, but you're right that the chainsword is not available to commissars.

Just to be sure about HSVGs, they fire at full ballistic skill the turn they drop right?

Invinciblebug wrote:
So purely hypothetically if plasma guns didn't exist (say they hit the nerfbat hard) what would you guys think of meltaguns and HSVGs on Tempestus Scions?

Would it be worth to bring melta/HSVG scions if plasma was gone or would you just not bother with scions?

Plasma could go up to 15pts a gun and I would still take it, they're that good. I can't imagine GW doing anything crazier than that to them that wouldn't just horribly nerf everything else with access to plasma even worse. There are way too many things with the plasma statline in the game for it to go away. They will do a points adjustment and that's it, it's all they can do. This in mind the plasma gun fills an important role for guard special weapons, hence why I said I'd still buy them at 15pts. I'm used to that from last edition and to be honest that plasma gun was way inferior to the one we have now.

As for the other weapons, I tried both out on stormtroopers this weekend. I actually really liked them, they had a niche they filled pretty well. I took the HSVG's in a full 10 man squad, so 4 HSVG's, 5 lasguns, and a sarge with a plasma pistol. Puts out a stupid amount of fire and if they survive the drop to move into rapid fire range, their lasgun buddies get 4 shots as well with an officer nearby. Worked really well for hollowing out space marine squads and high save units in cover like scouts. Also draws a crazy amount of fire when you drop a unit in and are rolling something like 20 AP -2/-3 dice, which helped take heat off the plasma and melta elements.

As for melta, I had a 5 man troop squad with 2 meltas and plasma pistol. With a 4 man plasma command squad, an officer, and the 10 man volley gun squad, the opponent ignored the melta unit as the other units are far more flashy on the drop. I ended up sicking the meltas on his characters and being able to advance to point blank range for that 2d6 pick highest damage is excellent. Plasma is still the ultimate jack of all trades gun but I will absolutely continue to use the meltas. Even at 7-12", that potential for a money high damage roll and completely negating most armor saves is very handy. It really lets you punish a sloppy player leaving their characters exposed, that's for sure.

Invinciblebug wrote:

MaxT wrote:


Hang on, it's also an illegal list i think. Chainsword isn't an option for Commissars, gotta buy a power weapon ?

You only have to buy a power weapon for the lord Commissar not the regular one, but you're right that the chainsword is not available to commissars.

Just to be sure about HSVGs, they fire at full ballistic skill the turn they drop right?

Units count as moving when arriving from reserves (i.e. Deepstrike).
So HSVG's are at -1 to hit because they are Heavy.

Will someone please sell me on astropaths? I don't have my index in front of me but I looked at them this weekend and I just don't see them as an autotake and yet I seem to see them everywhere (like apparently the winning BAO list that has two for crying out loud).

 necron99 wrote:
Will someone please sell me on astropaths? I don't have my index in front of me but I looked at them this weekend and I just don't see them as an autotake and yet I seem to see them everywhere (like apparently the winning BAO list that has two for crying out loud).

For 15 points you get:

1 x Deny the Witch
1 x remove cover for 1 enemy unit
1 x Power @ 2D6 (say +1 Save) or 1 x Smite @ 1D6
1 x Laspistol shot !

It's worth it for the DtW & deny cover alone. Giving a Russ, Superheavy or Bullgryns an extra save is lush too. The odd smite that comes off if you run 2 is pure gravy. I use 2 for 30 pts, well worth it.

 necron99 wrote:
Will someone please sell me on astropaths? I don't have my index in front of me but I looked at them this weekend and I just don't see them as an autotake and yet I seem to see them everywhere (like apparently the winning BAO list that has two for crying out loud).

I think the main selling point is that (with Laspistols) they're a mere 15pts each, barely more than a 1/3 of what a Primaris Psyker costs.
- Their smite is weaker, but with almost 3 times as many it hardly matters (hell, if any army can extol the virtues of quantity over quality, it's ours).
- They can cast other powers normally (and their other powers are pretty decent).
- Their Deny the Witch is as good as any other psyker (with the advantage that you can have more of them)
- They have a bonus rule that lets you remove cover saves for enemy units.

Doctoralex wrote:
More unit review time!

I tried a couple of units I didn't use before.

It was a 1500 point friendly game vs Eldar.
He had a lot three Wave Serpents filled with either Wraithblades or Wraithguard, a Fire Prism, some Dark Reapers and some Snipers.

Here's the new units I used:

Budget Guardsmen squads:
With a Grenade Launcher and a Heavy Bolter, these squads are some of out cheapest infantry options.

Are they good? Eh. The grenade launcher, like my last explanation, is not good. The frag version is only slightly better than a basic lasgun and with FRF + rapid-fire range, the lasgun is straightup better.

The krak version is pretty poor too. Even for what is supposed to be an anti-MEQ, it still wounds on 3+ and has only -1ap.

The Heavy Bolter? It was ok. They mostly shot at the Wraithguard which was a pretty good target for them. If you'r anti-tank is sorted, I would recommend getting a LOT of these. I mean, they are soooo cheap, just spam them. Should help vs if the enemy has a horde army too.


Banewolves:
I tried two Banewolves in the match and they did... ok. I can't really say a lot about them.

They are a weird mixed bunch. Wounding anything but vehicles on 2+ with ap-3 sounds great, but then you get.... 1 dmg per wound.

To make the most out its weapon, you should be shooting it at high T fleshy targets. Guess what, those will pretty much always have two or more wounds. Which means the Hellhound with it's 2dmg gun will probably be better.

Hydra:
So there were plenty of key-word fly target to shoot at with my Hydra and let me tell you, it is a blast to finally have something that hits on 3+.

Unfortunately, I didn't get a good taste of what it can do. The Wave Serpent all had their shields, which means that the normal 2dmg from the autocannons became 1dmg. I'll try him again, that many autocannon shots at bs 3+ does sound pretty good.
uuuuuntil you face an army with 0 fly keywords in it and it's hitting on 5+....

Leman Russ Vanquishers:
Ah yes, the famous 'worst tank of the new AM'. I tried an odd combination of a regular tank commander and a normal leman russ, both with Vanquishers.

Why not Pask you ask? Like I said its was a friendly game, and Pask does turn the try-hardness of any Guard army up a notch.

However, I was suprised by their effectiveness. Maybe I got lucky on my rolls, but to me it really felt like they could put out reliable anti-tank damage.
I think the one-shot instead of the Batllecannon's D6 shots actually isn't too bad. On top of that the extra AP was quite noticable, leaving my enemy with only a petty 6+ save.

This resulted to something interesting I've noticed, the higher the AP of your weapon, the less likely the enemy will use a command point to re-roll a save. Even if it means taking a lot of damage, they won't risk a command re-roll for only a 6+ save. They will however more than likely re-roll a 5+.

And then 2D6 take the highest for damage added another layer of reliability to these babies.

But are they better than the Battle-cannons? Eh, dunno. I'm sure Battle-cannons on a whole will perform better, as they can hit a better variety of targets and a poor roll on the amount of shots can be fixed with a command re-roll.

So that's it, another review of my 'uncommon Guard units!' Let me know what you think and if you want a more detailed version of the battle.

Agree with a lot of your findings, but a couple of points of note.

Yes on the Banewolf, it's there to dig out obnoxious infantry (like Marines on objectives), or to punk IC's that you can get close to (on a good role), but the Hellhound is pound for pound more reliable between the range, damage output and the fact that it can do solid damage to light vehicles as well as infantry.

Hydras are solid no matter what you're facing. They plug the AA hole, and as you noted, are amazing against anything else with the FLY keyword. Even if you face an army with 0 fly Keyword (which is unlikely these days), hitting on 5's is perfectly fine, just think of them as a squad of Lootaz, not the most efficient but they'll still reliably put wounds on most vehicles/heavy infantry.

RE the Vanquisher VS Battle Tank debate. You probably had better than average rolls. It's the S8 that kills me, every target for the vanquisher is 3+ to wound at best, typically 4+ for the choice targets. The Battle Cannon only has to roll a 2+ shots to have better odds at more damage even factoring the roll 2D6 mechanic. Now my experience is only on Pask, who shines when rocking the stock battle cannon, but I think it's somewhat comparable to the stock Tank Commander in that respect.

Honestly though I think Russes are best used to get on mid-field objectives and provide close support to up-field infantry, T8 12W is a distraction carnifex. I'm trying out my Punisher with 3x HF to test this theory, backed up by 2x plain Executioners with Hull LC, who are themselves backed up by Pask in a LRBT with LC and Plasma sponsons. All of this is just going to try to keep the fire off my stock infantry squads in Chimeras and the backfield artillery.

64 pages later, I think that the OP needs to take the question mark out of the thread title!

Back to what works best, has anyone used Elysian Taurox Venators? For their points they seem quite efficient if you take 2 Lascannons and a HK Missile you end up at $92 and can deepstrike, or just move very quickly without suffering the the to hit penalty. Basically they're Sentinels that lose scout and move faster but can take an extra Lascannon and don't take move penalties. The 5++ is just gravy on top!

 necron99 wrote:
Will someone please sell me on astropaths? I don't have my index in front of me but I looked at them this weekend and I just don't see them as an autotake and yet I seem to see them everywhere (like apparently the winning BAO list that has two for crying out loud).

Ok, I'm sold

 axisofentropy wrote:
BAO winner Brandon Grant

That list is nothing special. Lots of good units are in it, but nothing is super heavily spammed. Overall it seems flexible.

IMO how Brandon Grant played his list is why he won the BAO.

 schadenfreude wrote:

 axisofentropy wrote:
BAO winner Brandon Grant

That list is nothing special. Lots of good units are in it, but nothing is super heavily spammed. Overall it seems flexible.

IMO how Brandon Grant played his list is why he won the BAO.

I can attest to that as I play net/tournament lists all the time and still lose

Can anyone direct me to where I find the rules for Astropaths? They don't seem to be in Imperium 2

 More Dakka wrote:
Can anyone direct me to where I find the rules for Astropaths? They don't seem to be in Imperium 2

Right on the next page to Primaris Psykers in Imperium Two under 'Adeptus Astra Telepathica' I believe.

 jifel wrote:
64 pages later, I think that the OP needs to take the question mark out of the thread title!

Back to what works best, has anyone used Elysian Taurox Venators? For their points they seem quite efficient if you take 2 Lascannons and a HK Missile you end up at $92 and can deepstrike, or just move very quickly without suffering the the to hit penalty. Basically they're Sentinels that lose scout and move faster but can take an extra Lascannon and don't take move penalties. The 5++ is just gravy on top!

Im going to be running two of them. They seem awesome. For all the reasons you posts. But you can also deep strike them. and 15" movement. I think they will be an auto include for me.

 MrMoustaffa wrote:

Invinciblebug wrote:
So purely hypothetically if plasma guns didn't exist (say they hit the nerfbat hard) what would you guys think of meltaguns and HSVGs on Tempestus Scions?

Would it be worth to bring melta/HSVG scions if plasma was gone or would you just not bother with scions?

Plasma could go up to 15pts a gun and I would still take it, they're that good. I can't imagine GW doing anything crazier than that to them that wouldn't just horribly nerf everything else with access to plasma even worse. There are way too many things with the plasma statline in the game for it to go away. They will do a points adjustment and that's it, it's all they can do. This in mind the plasma gun fills an important role for guard special weapons, hence why I said I'd still buy them at 15pts. I'm used to that from last edition and to be honest that plasma gun was way inferior to the one we have now.

As for the other weapons, I tried both out on stormtroopers this weekend. I actually really liked them, they had a niche they filled pretty well. I took the HSVG's in a full 10 man squad, so 4 HSVG's, 5 lasguns, and a sarge with a plasma pistol. Puts out a stupid amount of fire and if they survive the drop to move into rapid fire range, their lasgun buddies get 4 shots as well with an officer nearby. Worked really well for hollowing out space marine squads and high save units in cover like scouts. Also draws a crazy amount of fire when you drop a unit in and are rolling something like 20 AP -2/-3 dice, which helped take heat off the plasma and melta elements.

As for melta, I had a 5 man troop squad with 2 meltas and plasma pistol. With a 4 man plasma command squad, an officer, and the 10 man volley gun squad, the opponent ignored the melta unit as the other units are far more flashy on the drop. I ended up sicking the meltas on his characters and being able to advance to point blank range for that 2d6 pick highest damage is excellent. Plasma is still the ultimate jack of all trades gun but I will absolutely continue to use the meltas. Even at 7-12", that potential for a money high damage roll and completely negating most armor saves is very handy. It really lets you punish a sloppy player leaving their characters exposed, that's for sure.

My expectation is that Tempestus Scions will move to their own subsection of the codex and get their own wargear page, but retain their AM keyword. That way GW can raise the cost for them specifically (since they're BS3+) without nerfing it for guard (who are BS4+).

Seems reasonably that scions should pay about the same for a plasma gun as a space marine, since they have the same BS. I think they'll still have their place, but it won't be spammed quite as hard core.

Heey guys,

Can you please tell me if this list isn't too try-hard for a non/semi competitive multiplayer?

Cheers!

Battalion Detachment, 1250 points

HQ
Pask, vanquisher
Tank commander, vanquisher
Company commander

Troops
4x infantry squad, flamer, autocannon, sergeant /w power maul

Fast attack
Hellhound

Heavy support
2x basilisk

Spearhead detachment

HQ
Company commander

Heavy support
Manticore
Heavy weapons squad /w 3x heavy bolter
Heavy weapons squad /w 3x mortar

I wanted to forgo Conscripts and plasma spam, as well as too many mortara/artillery.

What do you guys think? Still too competitive or...?

As someone who plays in a semi-competitive/casual environment, I'd say that list is quite tryhard.

Doesn't seem that bad at all. Not like lemons are that great. And artillery without conscripts is much easier to shut down

Got another game in with my IG. Tank heavy list as follows:

Battalion Detachment

HQ
Commander
Boltgun

Commissar
Boltgun/Power Sword

Troops
Infantry Squad

Infantry Squad

5x Tempestus Scions
2x plasma guns

Elites
Master of Ordinance

Fast Attack

2x Hellhounds

Heavy Support
2x Hydras

Dedicated Transport

Chimera Multi Laser hull HF

Chimera Multi Laser hull HF

Spearhead Detachment

HQ
Pask
LRBT
Hull LC, Plasma sponsons

Heavy Support
Leman Russ Demolisher Squad

Punisher
Hull HF, Sponson HF

Executioner
Hull LC

Executioner
Hull LC

Manticore
Hull HB

Manticore
Hull HB

Went up against GK

Draigo

2x Venerable Dreads w TL LC and TL AC

5x Incinerators in a Rhino

2x 5 man Paladin Squads w a Hammer in each

Eversor assassin

Knight w the twin battle cannon ML rack + CCW

We played KP and I won in the 3rd turn, took down the Knight T1 with shooting to spare.

General observation is that tanks are tough. T7+ is rock solid in my experience. We both had average dice without any big swings either way but my opponent just couldn't punch through my armor fast enough.

My opponents main mistake was not DSing his whole army T1, I was able to easily concentrate on the Knight, but I think I would have been able to spread the firepower around enough to weaken the Paladin squads and kill the knight anyways.

Overall everything in the army performed well. The only dead weight was the MoO, which I think I'll switch for Harker. I just had so many threats to deal with inside of 36" that I never got to use his re-rolls and his bombardment has wiffed 2 games in a row now.

Manticores are MVPs for sure, but we all knew that. I focused down the Knight with everything else in my kit and finished it off with 1 storm eagle rocket.

My opponents main mistake was not DSing his whole army T1, I was able to easily concentrate on the Knight, but I think I would have been able to spread the firepower around enough to weaken the Paladin squads and kill the knight anyways.

Hydras with no keyword Fly units, just fine, did I think 6 wounds to the Knight, helped to finish off 2 Paladins, overall solid performance in their worst case scenario.

Leman Russ tanks did OK, Pask got focused down fast like I was expecting. Did solid 4 wounds to the Knight with his battle cannon. I think that's the best gun for him, that or the Demolisher. Hard to say with him just getting knocked out right away.

Executioners solid again, really they're just doing distraction duty right now. They survived a lot of shooting and assault so that's about what I expect from them.

Punisher with HFs. Did OK, HFs did way more damage to the GKs because of the -1 AP, the Punisher cannon I think only picked off 1 wound. I ended up pointing it at the Eversor to take him down.

Chimeras were solid, very good at blocking and the HFs were a good investment. Would consider 2 but then they price out like a Hellhound

Hellhounds did great. Put consistent wounds into the Paladins, did a combined 4 wounds to the Knight as well. The static D2 is just really worth it.

After reading through the FW Index I am really keen on Conquerors to fill in my LR selections. Between the barebones cost and the coaxial Storm Bolter, I think they're going to be the go-to for my future lists.

You don't want to take too many artillery/mortars so you settled on six of them?

IMO try just one.

 argonak wrote:

 MrMoustaffa wrote:

Invinciblebug wrote:
So purely hypothetically if plasma guns didn't exist (say they hit the nerfbat hard) what would you guys think of meltaguns and HSVGs on Tempestus Scions?

Would it be worth to bring melta/HSVG scions if plasma was gone or would you just not bother with scions?

Plasma could go up to 15pts a gun and I would still take it, they're that good. I can't imagine GW doing anything crazier than that to them that wouldn't just horribly nerf everything else with access to plasma even worse. There are way too many things with the plasma statline in the game for it to go away. They will do a points adjustment and that's it, it's all they can do. This in mind the plasma gun fills an important role for guard special weapons, hence why I said I'd still buy them at 15pts. I'm used to that from last edition and to be honest that plasma gun was way inferior to the one we have now.

As for the other weapons, I tried both out on stormtroopers this weekend. I actually really liked them, they had a niche they filled pretty well. I took the HSVG's in a full 10 man squad, so 4 HSVG's, 5 lasguns, and a sarge with a plasma pistol. Puts out a stupid amount of fire and if they survive the drop to move into rapid fire range, their lasgun buddies get 4 shots as well with an officer nearby. Worked really well for hollowing out space marine squads and high save units in cover like scouts. Also draws a crazy amount of fire when you drop a unit in and are rolling something like 20 AP -2/-3 dice, which helped take heat off the plasma and melta elements.

As for melta, I had a 5 man troop squad with 2 meltas and plasma pistol. With a 4 man plasma command squad, an officer, and the 10 man volley gun squad, the opponent ignored the melta unit as the other units are far more flashy on the drop. I ended up sicking the meltas on his characters and being able to advance to point blank range for that 2d6 pick highest damage is excellent. Plasma is still the ultimate jack of all trades gun but I will absolutely continue to use the meltas. Even at 7-12", that potential for a money high damage roll and completely negating most armor saves is very handy. It really lets you punish a sloppy player leaving their characters exposed, that's for sure.

My expectation is that Tempestus Scions will move to their own subsection of the codex and get their own wargear page, but retain their AM keyword. That way GW can raise the cost for them specifically (since they're BS3+) without nerfing it for guard (who are BS4+).

Seems reasonably that scions should pay about the same for a plasma gun as a space marine, since they have the same BS. I think they'll still have their place, but it won't be spammed quite as hard core.

Honestly I'm hoping gw nerfs plasmagun/pistol across the board for all armies so it's at best str6 and str7 overcharged.
It's not just the fact plasma is overpowered, but it completely throws off balance with all special weapons with grenade launchers and melta guns being worse in most situations.
And worst still most vehicles in 40k 8th are not as durable as they should be.
There is way to much easily accessible and cheap str8 multi damage weapons that make a mockery of t8 3+ save ~15 wound units....
if plasma guns get nerfed as I hope above it's almost garaunteed that leman russes and similar vehicles would be much much better. At str 7 a plasma gun can still do decent damage but it won't be nearly as bad as it currently is.
If you just raise plasma to 15ppm people will still spam they are just that good with deep strike at alpha striking. And it does very little to solve the bigger problem caused by plasmaguns.
With plasma nerfed to str 7 armies will need to rely on krak missiles, lascannons, melta wpns, melee, or high rate of fire, etc all of which are either vastly more expensive with less shots or have much shorter range to take down t8.