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I'm definitely mixed on that AC change. I'm totally fine with changing the price of the TLAC to the cost of 2 ACs, that's how they priced all of the other main twin guns. The problem is that the model the AC or TLAC is usually mounted on is overpriced. Like, I don't think the Razorback needs another +5pt cost if the main gun option is already getting +9. And as noted above, things like the Land Raider Crusader are way overpriced and only get worse with this.

I'd asked this in this thread a few weeks ago, and yeah even if it's efficient, I doubt anyone thinks the TLAC Razorback itself is actually overpowered. If you want to nerf its combo with Bobby G, nerf Bobby. Don't give half the nerf to the tank and half to Bobby.


Well, I suppose on the upside, if those changes go through, it'll finally push me to drop my razors in favor of dreads, which you guys advised for army effectiveness. I've been so busy recently, barely gotten time to try playing the army list I had, let alone assemble and test mods.

Sniper Scouts with a ML are serviceable as long as you ignore getting Camo Cloaks.

I've been reading this thread on sniper scouts, and I'm quite surprised by the downvote. Is it because with snipers you have to double down and take enough to reliably threaten key enemy characters? Three squads of snipers, for example, gives you enough oomph to drop guard HQs easily, headshot ancients and warlocks, etc., whilst also giving you some much-needed deepstrike protection. It's 225pts, but that's fairly viable, unlocking battalion detachments, and keeps your backline safe for the first round.

In regards to the durability increase of IH vs RG someone else ran the numbers (sorry I can't remember where) and the -1 to hit is better... but by a very small margin. 2/36 margin to be precise. This did not takin to account the benefit that the -1 has to multi damage shots, added benefit against mobile heavy weapons, and helping plasma blow itself up. The IH win out when against an army that will close quickly, or in conjunction with units that are trying to get into melee or rapid fire range themselves. So if you are running a Gunline or have good screening potential then RG is great, but IH have more reliable durability across any type of army.

 Captain Garius wrote:
In regards to the durability increase of IH vs RG someone else ran the numbers (sorry I can't remember where) and the -1 to hit is better... but by a very small margin. 2/36 margin to be precise. This did not takin to account the benefit that the -1 has to multi damage shots, added benefit against mobile heavy weapons, and helping plasma blow itself up. The IH win out when against an army that will close quickly, or in conjunction with units that are trying to get into melee or rapid fire range themselves. So if you are running a Gunline or have good screening potential then RG is great, but IH have more reliable durability across any type of army.

1. Everyone is running gunline anyway. So too bad. Tyranids might shake things up a bit.
2. The average weapon that does multi-damage is on a D6, or 3.5 usually. You'd have to pass all those 6's. So basically you're gonna die.
3. Raven Guard have a MUCH better exclusive Strategem. The Iron Hands one is super garbage.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 Captain Garius wrote:
In regards to the durability increase of IH vs RG someone else ran the numbers (sorry I can't remember where) and the -1 to hit is better... but by a very small margin. 2/36 margin to be precise. This did not takin to account the benefit that the -1 has to multi damage shots, added benefit against mobile heavy weapons, and helping plasma blow itself up. The IH win out when against an army that will close quickly, or in conjunction with units that are trying to get into melee or rapid fire range themselves. So if you are running a Gunline or have good screening potential then RG is great, but IH have more reliable durability across any type of army.

1. Everyone is running gunline anyway. So too bad. Tyranids might shake things up a bit.
2. The average weapon that does multi-damage is on a D6, or 3.5 usually. You'd have to pass all those 6's. So basically you're gonna die.
3. Raven Guard have a MUCH better exclusive Strategem. The Iron Hands one is super garbage.

Tyranids look like they'll be able to field a pretty good gunline, for what it's worth.

Iron Hands Primaris guys have a decent chance of surviving a 2 damage plasma hit. This means that both iron hands and raven guard are good against plasma - indeed you could argue that IH are better because people tend to get within 12" with their plasma guns before overcharging in the first place.

Likewise an IH dreadnought has a decent chance of negating some of the wounds from a lascannon hit. In effect, it has 1.333 extra wounds due to its CTs. Admittedly, they'll sometimes get overkilled, making the CTs irrelevant - but then sometimes your opponent will roll a 6 to hit a RG dreadnought.

No argument on the ravenguard stratagem. that's awesome.

It isn't a decent chance. You'd have a 31% chance to live. That's not counting for weapons rolling for damage much above the wounds the model has.

Count on the much better Strategem and there's no point to Iron Hands.

What have been your (best) experience with footslogging dreadnoughts ?

I've seen a generic twin heavy flamer/heavy flamer dreadnought work quite well. It's cheap, can advance and only lose 33% of its firepower, and can still punch out heavy stuff in CC. My furioso aspires to be that useful.

Martel732 wrote:
I've seen a generic twin heavy flamer/heavy flamer dreadnought work quite well. It's cheap, can advance and only lose 33% of its firepower, and can still punch out heavy stuff in CC. My furioso aspires to be that useful.

Wasn't it very difficult to get the flamers into range ?

No. Objectives were in play.

 godardc wrote:
What have been your (best) experience with footslogging dreadnoughts ?

Either a Comtemptor Dreadnought with assault cannon or a Venerable Dreadnought with Twin lascannon and missile launcher

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 Captain Garius wrote:
In regards to the durability increase of IH vs RG someone else ran the numbers (sorry I can't remember where) and the -1 to hit is better... but by a very small margin. 2/36 margin to be precise. This did not takin to account the benefit that the -1 has to multi damage shots, added benefit against mobile heavy weapons, and helping plasma blow itself up. The IH win out when against an army that will close quickly, or in conjunction with units that are trying to get into melee or rapid fire range themselves. So if you are running a Gunline or have good screening potential then RG is great, but IH have more reliable durability across any type of army.

1. Everyone is running gunline anyway. So too bad. Tyranids might shake things up a bit.
2. The average weapon that does multi-damage is on a D6, or 3.5 usually. You'd have to pass all those 6's. So basically you're gonna die.
3. Raven Guard have a MUCH better exclusive Strategem. The Iron Hands one is super garbage.

Sorry I guess I wasn't clear. I was saying that RG is better almost always. The argument for IH is that the difference isn't huge in survivability, but I was bringing up the reasons that isn't the case. The only situation that I would choose IH over RG is one where I was planning on being in my opponents face. Dread spam (with focus on CC), Termi's DSing for rapid Fire Plasma... things like that. Every other situation the RG is just objectively better.

What have been your (best) experience with footslogging dreadnoughts ?

If you are using Forgeworld the Leviathan is amazing, and so are the Mortis, Contemptor Mortis, and Relic Contemptor. From the codex though I prefer the Contemptor and Venerable as Neophyte2012 mentioned. The Ironclad can be fun too though. Dreads are just so much better than they used to be, and they are fun... so it's hard to go wrong.

 Captain Garius wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 Captain Garius wrote:
In regards to the durability increase of IH vs RG someone else ran the numbers (sorry I can't remember where) and the -1 to hit is better... but by a very small margin. 2/36 margin to be precise. This did not takin to account the benefit that the -1 has to multi damage shots, added benefit against mobile heavy weapons, and helping plasma blow itself up. The IH win out when against an army that will close quickly, or in conjunction with units that are trying to get into melee or rapid fire range themselves. So if you are running a Gunline or have good screening potential then RG is great, but IH have more reliable durability across any type of army.

1. Everyone is running gunline anyway. So too bad. Tyranids might shake things up a bit.
2. The average weapon that does multi-damage is on a D6, or 3.5 usually. You'd have to pass all those 6's. So basically you're gonna die.
3. Raven Guard have a MUCH better exclusive Strategem. The Iron Hands one is super garbage.

Sorry I guess I wasn't clear. I was saying that RG is better almost always. The argument for IH is that the difference isn't huge in survivability, but I was bringing up the reasons that isn't the case. The only situation that I would choose IH over RG is one where I was planning on being in my opponents face. Dread spam (with focus on CC), Termi's DSing for rapid Fire Plasma... things like that. Every other situation the RG is just objectively better.

What have been your (best) experience with footslogging dreadnoughts ?

If you are using Forgeworld the Leviathan is amazing, and so are the Mortis, Contemptor Mortis, and Relic Contemptor. From the codex though I prefer the Contemptor and Venerable as Neophyte2012 mentioned. The Ironclad can be fun too though. Dreads are just so much better than they used to be, and they are fun... so it's hard to go wrong.

Even if I were being in the opponent's face, Raven Guard makes them that much better to the campers they can't reach.

Yea Raven Guard are really good, I definitely they're better than the Iron Hands in terms of durability.

Would a SM army with 4 or 5 dreadnoughts be viable?

Probably not.

Dreadnoughts are one of our best and most versatile units, I can absolutely see that working.

Will it work better than Bob's used car lot? Probably not, but it can definitely be effective.

 Perth wrote:
Dreadnoughts are one of our best and most versatile units, I can absolutely see that working.

Will it work better than Bob's used car lot? Probably not, but it can definitely be effective.

Yeah I am going for ‘pretty good’ / ‘effective’ not best list ever.

Trying to figure out what type of dread list would be best. Gun line probably not strong enough... maybe massed charge with Contemptors either with RG or IH faction. Not sure what else to have in list

Id run it in two ways...

1. balls to the wall:
- stormravens with cc dreads

2.gunline
-techmarine
-gulliman
-shooty dreads

 -v10mega wrote:
Id run it in two ways...

1. balls to the wall:
- stormravens with cc dreads

Or instead of paying for storm ravens, even more dreads? Lol

4x ven dreads w/ a LT (las + auto cannons if your group allows index, missiles if not)

Storm raven with a grav-flux relic leviathan

2x ironclads lead by a chaplin dread.

Crulexus for shenanigans and a unit of devs to pay heavy tax on relic leviathan? A unit or two of scouts for objective grabbers/1st turn charge speed bump?

Run them as raven guard for the -1 to hit (smoke launchers on ironclads turn 1 with chaplin behind them so they gotta shoot the ICs first and you should get into their lines by turn 2)

Best list for dreads I think is this.
Azreal
max redemptor dreads. Give them all the dakka load out - runs a lot like a bobby g razor list except you have none of it's weaknesses. You are strong in CC - and you are actually very durable with 4++ saves and 13 wounds a pop.

bananathug wrote:
4x ven dreads w/ a LT (las + auto cannons if your group allows index, missiles if not)

Storm raven with a grav-flux relic leviathan

2x ironclads lead by a chaplin dread.

Crulexus for shenanigans and a unit of devs to pay heavy tax on relic leviathan? A unit or two of scouts for objective grabbers/1st turn charge speed bump?

Run them as raven guard for the -1 to hit (smoke launchers on ironclads turn 1 with chaplin behind them so they gotta shoot the ICs first and you should get into their lines by turn 2)

Whoa, what’s with this relic stuff and chaplain dreads. I only have the SM codex. Where is that stuff from...

They're FW dreads.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
They're FW dreads.

Aw man, oh well, going to stick with codex stuff if I can, most folks near me don’t use FW rules

Stavkat wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
They're FW dreads.

Aw man, oh well, going to stick with codex stuff if I can, most folks near me don’t use FW rules

Probably good for them because the relic leviathan dread is so much good dreadness. Chaplin dread just abuses the broken character targeting rules (make him a salamander, put the cloak and warlord on him for s8 (16 CC), t8, w9 melee beast, 5++, 6FnP)

Grav flux on the relic leviathan is heavy d3, s9 -5ap, 2d range 18"- If target is monster/vehicle or titanic then damage becomes 5. for every five models in the target unit add d3 to the number of attacks made by this weapon (is that +d3 for every 5 beyond the first or would a unit of 5 get 2d3 shots at it?)
-You can put 2 of these on him or a combo of Stormcannon arrays @ heavy 10, s7, -2, 2d range 24"

In around 300 points with a 4++, t8 and 14 wounds.

Whoa.

So what's the deal with scouts now.

14 points with camo cloak so end up one more point than marines. If they never leave from cover their armor save is the same as tacs, which means their deploy almost anywhere ability is valued at a point I guess. Sounds fair.

Anyway, with cloaks or without, wondering if people run them with 5 sniper rifles or one missile launcher. Points for this almost the same.

You can get away with the ML if you feel like it, but more the important thing is to never buy Camo Cloaks.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
You can get away with the ML if you feel like it, but more the important thing is to never buy Camo Cloaks.

5 tacs with las cannon is very close in points to 5 scouts with cloaks with missile launcher.

For a camping unit, seems either way is fine, no?