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Indeed. And none of Van Sara’s toys (at least those we’ve seen) are entirely unusual/never before seen.

Yes, they’re of notable quality, and compared to Guard standard issue, go beyond ‘it’s functional’.

But is that terribly notable in the grand scheme of things? The wealthy of the Imperium can get their hands on all sorts of toys standing armies can’t. Displacer Fields, Rejuv, Digital Weapons, Fancy Custom Made Stuff. And the stuff produced for the Tithe appears standardised.

In terms of the Adeptus Mechanicus? Well, Necromunda isn’t their planet, and owes them no particular fealty. So it seems very unlikely they’ve got the right clout and authority to simply confiscate anything. Yes, they’re certainly capable of taking it by force. But Necromunda is a loyal, highly productive world. Go after it by force, and they’d likely meet armed resistance not just from planet side, but other factions.

Better to use whatever clout they can to start infiltrating/absorbing House Van Saar into the Cult Mechanicus. No idea how long that process might take, but I suspect it’d take a long old while!

The other, unspoken possibility? The Adeptus Mechanicus know full well what’s there. And it’s flaw. If so, the simplest method is to simply leave it be, and wait for Van Saar to cripple itself, then move in on their holdings. From there, work political leverage to have the whole planet handed over as a new fiefdom, turning the Hive World to a Forge World.

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
Indeed. And none of Van Sara’s toys (at least those we’ve seen) are entirely unusual/never before seen.

Yes, they’re of notable quality, and compared to Guard standard issue, go beyond ‘it’s functional’.

But is that terribly notable in the grand scheme of things? The wealthy of the Imperium can get their hands on all sorts of toys standing armies can’t. Displacer Fields, Rejuv, Digital Weapons, Fancy Custom Made Stuff. And the stuff produced for the Tithe appears standardised.

In terms of the Adeptus Mechanicus? Well, Necromunda isn’t their planet, and owes them no particular fealty. So it seems very unlikely they’ve got the right clout and authority to simply confiscate anything. Yes, they’re certainly capable of taking it by force. But Necromunda is a loyal, highly productive world. Go after it by force, and they’d likely meet armed resistance not just from planet side, but other factions.

Better to use whatever clout they can to start infiltrating/absorbing House Van Saar into the Cult Mechanicus. No idea how long that process might take, but I suspect it’d take a long old while!

The other, unspoken possibility? The Adeptus Mechanicus know full well what’s there. And it’s flaw. If so, the simplest method is to simply leave it be, and wait for Van Saar to cripple itself, then move in on their holdings. From there, work political leverage to have the whole planet handed over as a new fiefdom, turning the Hive World to a Forge World.

That still doesn't hold up under scrutiny since AdMech in fluff have burned entire star systems chasing the *rumor* of a STC, and if you think that the Imperial Fists having a presence on the planet might give them pause, see what happened to the Soul Drinkers. The compact the Emperor signed apparently gives them VAST authority in this matter to boot.

Depends on the star system, really.

Hive Worlds are critical to the Imperium. Burning one for a new toy would not be without repercussion. And with other avenues open, a step not required.

 BaronIveagh wrote:

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
Indeed. And none of Van Sara’s toys (at least those we’ve seen) are entirely unusual/never before seen.

Yes, they’re of notable quality, and compared to Guard standard issue, go beyond ‘it’s functional’.

But is that terribly notable in the grand scheme of things? The wealthy of the Imperium can get their hands on all sorts of toys standing armies can’t. Displacer Fields, Rejuv, Digital Weapons, Fancy Custom Made Stuff. And the stuff produced for the Tithe appears standardised.

In terms of the Adeptus Mechanicus? Well, Necromunda isn’t their planet, and owes them no particular fealty. So it seems very unlikely they’ve got the right clout and authority to simply confiscate anything. Yes, they’re certainly capable of taking it by force. But Necromunda is a loyal, highly productive world. Go after it by force, and they’d likely meet armed resistance not just from planet side, but other factions.

Better to use whatever clout they can to start infiltrating/absorbing House Van Saar into the Cult Mechanicus. No idea how long that process might take, but I suspect it’d take a long old while!

The other, unspoken possibility? The Adeptus Mechanicus know full well what’s there. And it’s flaw. If so, the simplest method is to simply leave it be, and wait for Van Saar to cripple itself, then move in on their holdings. From there, work political leverage to have the whole planet handed over as a new fiefdom, turning the Hive World to a Forge World.

That still doesn't hold up under scrutiny since AdMech in fluff have burned entire star systems chasing the *rumor* of a STC, and if you think that the Imperial Fists having a presence on the planet might give them pause, see what happened to the Soul Drinkers. The compact the Emperor signed apparently gives them VAST authority in this matter to boot.

Nothing its simple in the Imperium - however must admit I woudld have prefered the Xenos tech angle than STC

 Mr Morden wrote:
Nothing its simple in the Imperium - however must admit I woudld have prefered the Xenos tech angle than STC

Oh, no, that’s actual heresy. Also, wrong House. You want xenotech, you ask Delaque. Or, rather, make careful enquiries where a Delaque agent might overhear and leave the appropriate payment at the coordinates that mysteriously appeared on your dataslate then go to the second set of coordinates and you might find something interesting. Allegedly. Actually asking directly outright is likely to have the enforcers suddenly discovering all your underhanded deals as well as your extensive stash of Spook and stolen Juvenat drugs, even if you never actually had any to begin with.

Reading through that article to me, points to Admech already on Necromunda monitoring the House.

The equipment that the Van Sarr have is looking familiar, as in I have seen some of these things on the new Primarus, and Admech Ranger sprues.
If the timeline is on par with the 41st millennium, THIS house Van Sarr is evolved from lasers and scopes to power armor and grav technology and that the STC is degrading as it infects the house members with radiation.

THIS is an interesting spin on the OG Van Sarr of "We're technically superior, suck it." to the point where they are paying for the tech advantage with the offset of the radiation infections.

I guess those Scavy's have to come from somewhere.....

Hmmm...

At first I wasn't going to get this book, but hey- In it for a penny, in it for a pound. I'm in.

The OG Van Saar were held tech-superiority because every single one of them had to be equipped with a high-tech environment suit to survive the zones they lived in, and the poorly educated or wilfully stupid died off rapidly. Or were banished downhive once the third eye showed up, yes…
The new fluff is similar, just reverses the cause and effect; they have (flawed) high tech which contaminates their areas heavily, forcing them to use rad suits and automation to compensate.

There's some very interesting fluff in the Orlock book as well.

806.M41 Lords of Iron
Dominance of the wastes pays the House of Iron in unexpected ways. The closing centuries of the 41st Millenium see forgotten forces moving on Necromunda for the first time since the early years of Imperial rule, and House Orlock are on the frontline of many of these shadow wars and wasteland conflicts.

956.M41 Guns at Dorn
A massive master-crafted bolt pistol, stamped with a fist icon, falls into the hands of Orlock gang boss Helgan Graywater, who modifies a servo-fist so he can fire it without breaking his arm. The gun turns out to be a mixed blessing, as it earns Graywater a fearsome reputation, but eventually spells his downfall when its owner returns to reclaim its property.

996.M41 A New Iron Lord Plans, decades in the making, come to fruition, and a mysterious object found in the wastes is secretly brought to the court of Lord Morrow Orlock. Though not even his closest advisors or many children know what it is, they detect a change in their father, Morrow becoming more secretive and muttering to himself about the return of the Iron Lords.

There's also a bit about Delaque "Faceless", polymorphine enhanced killers that offed an Orlock noble and resulted in a purge of the worker caste for fear of more Faceless.

Anyone else find it highly suspicious the van saar dice/cards are still on sale on the GW site? Last time I ordered from them they cancelled my order the day after the stuff was meant to release (BB necromantic stuff). I feel like there is going to be a wave of people getting their orders of dice/cards cancelled next week.

 Thargrim wrote:
Anyone else find it highly suspicious the van saar dice/cards are still on sale on the GW site? Last time I ordered from them they cancelled my order the day after the stuff was meant to release (BB necromantic stuff). I feel like there is going to be a wave of people getting their orders of dice/cards cancelled next week.

Dice sold out as normal in the UK, but the cards are still available.

To anyone who enjoyed the fighter class discounts (aka equipment list inconsistencies) in the Orlock book, prepare to be disappointed. House of Artifice has perfect synchronicity of all costs for all items across all fighter classes.

This is an improvement in my opinion. And yes, the book is public on youtube. The tradition of unqiue limitations of pet herd size is however continued (irrelevant as it may be).

I saw some pages here and there, looking at the leader one, where did the combi-weapons go ?

Interesting to see lascannons available as heavy weapons, I expect we'll be seeing more weapons soon.
Likewise, Van Saar juves are the first ones to have access to a basic weapon.

Most juves are restricted to cc weapons, but van Saar being so generally awful.at it, makes sense to.let them.keepma bit of.range with the noobs. At least the noobs not haring around on hoverboards

Nope, Orlock juves get basic weapons too.

Admittedly they're sawn-off shotguns rather than anything, y'know, good.

Allright, having finished reading the book, here is a quick review (a mix of notes, improvements and errors):

- Cyberachnid: 0-2 for old champ, 0-3 for leader & new champ. Comment: This kind of micro-details makes no sense and adds zero value (most probably a mistake).
- Infra-Sight specifically only mentions Pistol, Basic abd Special weapons. Comment: What happened to Heavy? Is this an universal update to infra-sight, or a house-specific limitation to Van Saar only?
- Throwing Knives (Armoury): Str S. Comment: This is a Toxin weapon, Str S doesn't make any sense here. Are they STILL copy-pasting long outdated incorrect weapon profiles from 2-3 years ago?
- Lasgun combi (meltagun/plasmagun): This is removed and replaced by laspistol combi (meltagun/plasmagun). Comment: Was the original lasgun combi a mistake all this time? Is this an update or an error? The combi was lasgun in Gang War 3 and N18, but now in N20 HoA it is laspistol instead (with the same meltagun/plasmagun combi options).
- Cyberteknika: Pay half its cost to repair any damage (a failed 4+ roll after a lasting injury in the same body location). Comment: How to round this? An universal rounding rule (up to nearest 5 credits) would be useful (could specify any exceptions where applicable).
- Rad cannon emplacement (gang terrain): This is another botched gang terrain. So many mistakes! 1) Conflicting weapon profiles (internal and external conflicts): Page 99 (Emplacement) and page 113 (Armoury). The emplacement version's range is improved from 16"-32" to 24"-48" and gained Fixed. This is also conflicting with all previous publications. Comment: Arguably the emplacement version is a different weapon, in which case it MUST have an unique name (ID). Then Fixed would make sense. 2) Fixed & Unwieldy. Comment: Unlike all previous Fixed weapons, this one got Unwieldy. Probably forgot to remove? 3) No specification of deployment. Comment: How is this deployed? Defender's deployment zone like all other Fixed weapons?
- Energy Sink: Reduce strength within 3" (to a minimum of 1), but no minimum strength after reduction within 6". Comment: Very minor, but an attack with Melta/Power/Plasma/Las can actually be Strength 1, in which case, would it be reduced to 0 if within 6"? Probably not.
- Catallus (Alliance): Fearless Allies rule can protect a Law-Abiding gang from becoming Outlaw. Comment: Nobles can be allied with Outlaw gangs, but this rule is only useful for Law-Abiding gangs.
- Plasma Grenade: Still got Unstable (unchanged). Comment: Now included in the house equipment list... with a 35 credits discount. And even if you got money for taking it, it would still be the worst item in the whole game.
- Thermal Mines (Melta trap): Correct application of the Melta trait (specifies short and long range). Comment: Finally rules are written with an understand how Melta trait works
- 2 new scenarios. Comment: The defender can in almost all cases avoid losing and forcing a draw by voluntarily fail the bottle test and flee the battlefield.
- Explicitly specifies the exact number of fighters in the Guild
- Imperial Imposters now protects against changing Alignment (instead of becoming an Outlaw gang). Comment: This makes a lot more sense, since only Outlaw gangs can be joined by this alliance.
- Web projector (Cyberachnid) got Silent. Comment: Makes sense, better late than never I guess.
- Melta trap: No longer has Melta trait. Comment: At last!
- Increased cost of las-plas & las-melta combi. Comment: Laspistol / melta combi (previously lasgun) up 10 credits (from 120 to 130). Laspistol / plasma combi (previously lasgun) up 20 credits (from 75 to 95). A welcoming change.

There are several issues with new skills and cyberteknika (super bionics), but haven't studied them close enough to summarize yet.

Calculated the difference in page count of one rules compilation before and after this book. The result was around 11 pages worth of rules, if you organize, remove fluff and artwork. That didn't include the cards so maybe 2-3 additional pages for all the cards.

TL;DR: Do not recommend.

Baxx wrote:
TL;DR: Do not recommend.

LOL

Thanks, Baxx, always useful to know which pitfalls are likely to spring up from these books.

Yeah you may want to discuss some of these in advance. Be particularly careful with the scenarios.They are interesting and look like a lot of fun, but at the same time can be broken easily with the win condition and mechanics for voluntarily fail bottle tests and fleeing the battlefield.

On the bright side, this book has (so far) a lot less errors than expected, and probably better quality for rules writing than the other books this year!

I think the combi lasgun may well have been the mistake all this time. The model you get certainly looks more like a pistol than a basic weapon. However its irritating because I converted up my gang leader to have a lasgun...

If you're playing against me she's got a Lasgun.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Even if you buy something better. Lasgun forever. Mwahahaha.

Teehee. I checked out the GW website,.and the writers there at least think the combi weapon is a lasgun, all looks to the contrary...

So a pistol combi with a normal gun? This has to be the first i've heard of.

Thank you Baxx for once again doing the hard work that maybe the person paid to edit the book should be doing!

Baxx wrote:
- Catallus (Alliance): Fearless Allies rule can protect a Law-Abiding gang from becoming Outlaw. Comment: Nobles can be allied with Outlaw gangs, but this rule is only useful for Law-Abiding gangs.

Just so I'm clear, Baxx - this isn't an error, just commenting that one of the rules is only useful if a gang is LA rather than Outlaw, right?

Yeah. It's not a significant part of this alliance, so can still be useful for any gang. But it was kinda odd that a Noble alliance would have any special ability favoring Law-Abiding over Outlaw. Possibly fluff related or forgetting that Noble can join any gang. On the contrary, the recidivists in this book got their similar ability fixed (prevent changing alignment, so works equally for Law-abiding and Outlaw).

On the “win by voluntary bottling”, that’s definitely something I’d be changing in a campaign.

Played one game where I was all over the Enforcers Gang, and eventually got them all down or bottled out. Yet, because he’d got a single container off the board, I lost - despite their being others my gang would surely have taken at their leisure?

Granted that’s not on my opponent - he fought hard, and didn’t game the system by pulling out following an early gain. But that mechanic just doesn’t sit right with me, as there’s no narrative reason a gang wouldn’t just recover whatever is left once their opponents are handled.

This problem in the new scenarios are pretty much the same as the universal flaw of all scenarios. If you have good sportsmanship, are you willing to stay in the battle to achieve the intended 'goal', but by doing so you sacrifice your gang and lose the battle? Or do you retreat because your gang took a beating?

There are no good solutions really. If you allow the remaining gang to automatically win (recover all remaining loot, destroy the objective etc.), then you've reduced the scenario to a shootout. Well, all scenarios are shootouts already, disguised with unachievable goals.

As an example, if your gang is geared towards shootout, which scenario would that strategy NOT work in?

That’s where suitably dense terrain comes in - otherwise a ranged Gang will always have a clear advantage over more balanced or close combat oriented Gangs.

There is a happy medium - but my experience of “wiped the floor with you, but you nicked off before I had a chance to move the crates back to my ‘home’ really irked me. Totally not my opponents fault as I said. But as a victory condition, it felt very off.

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
That’s where suitably dense terrain comes in - otherwise a ranged Gang will always have a clear advantage over more balanced or close combat oriented Gangs.

There is a happy medium - but my experience of “wiped the floor with you, but you nicked off before I had a chance to move the crates back to my ‘home’ really irked me. Totally not my opponents fault as I said. But as a victory condition, it felt very off.

Mind you this is just my experience, and Im certainly not claiming to be good cause Im really not, but the only times I've really had an issue not being able to just shoot the crap out of people with Van Saar, were missions my group played on very very tight corridored Zone Mortalis type boards.

You can always use the terrain card, but the fact is a lot of necromunda terrain out there look amazing, but simply does not work well with the game mechanics. Anything from official GW sector mechanicus terrain or 3rd party mdf towers and walkways, they so often allow to draw LOS straight through them.





So what you do when you have purchased, built and painted a table's worth of this? You can look through it like a thin slice of swiss cheeze. "Add more" is not always a practical solution.

Regardless, the universal scenario flaw has no good solution. We get more scenarios each month it seems (72 so far!), but they all have the same botched foundation. All scenarios are "shootout", and if you allow the remaining gang to claim any remaining objectives, they become even more shooty. The quickest way to drag a loot casket across the table is to wipe out the enemy.

The last pic there shows the solution. Munitorum Container style scatter. You can easily make several full pallets or piles of the crates that block LOS well, as well.as the solidity often containers themselves. The base game also comes with barricades. So the answer is definately more terrain, just not more big buildings.