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 H.B.M.C. wrote:
The question is does this new system allow for variant lists, or do they make new FOCs?

For instance, do they make a Deathwing FOC that has nothing but Elite and HS slots, and put a limit on Dreads (so you have to take Deathwing squads), or do they just say 'Deathwing Terminators count as Troops in a Deathwing army'?

I imagine it will follow the precedent of being a bit like AoS, the keywords will tie your army to an allegiance and if all your units have the 'Deathwing' keyword then the Termies will count as troops (Battleline in AoS).

This way you can use any FOC but the keywords and allegiance free up more options as to exactly how you can build your army.

eg: In my Lizardmen AoS army if all my units have the keyword 'Seraphon' then I can take Temple Guard or Cold one Cav as Battleline rather than just Skinks or regular Saurus warriors.

So let's see what we got in terms of broken formations, or "broken" formations:
1. Canoptek Harvest
2. Gladius/Lions Blade (I'm counting this as one because it's the same bloody thing)
3. Aspect Host
4. Riptide Wing
5. War Convocation

To say Formations were broken is NOT a fair assessment and honestly just incorrect. They aren't going to be necessary hopefully with the better balance and multiple CAD's of different varieties. However, you guys ain't being honest with yourselves when you say Formations are broken. There were simply problem formations. Simple as that.
Granted Liberal_Pert is overreacting a LOT, but things like Raptor Talon, TAF, Bully Boyz, Judicator Battalion, 1st Company, and things like that should definitely be missed.

I have a little bit of fear about my Militarum Tempestus army in a FOC. We have 2 HQs, 1 Troop, and now what would be 1 Flyer. We will more than likely need a specialized FOC for us to earn any command benefits.

 Howscat wrote:
I have a little bit of fear about my Militarum Tempestus army in a FOC. We have 2 HQs, 1 Troop, and now what would be 1 Flyer. We will more than likely need a specialized FOC for us to earn any command benefits.

You could run the battalion (or multiple battalions) for 3 cp each.

I am really hoping for a specialized infantry FOC that gives plenty of command benefits. I can easily see the number of detachments being very limited at a tournament for balance. All I can do is wait and see what will happen to my army in 8th.

There was a formation that let you show up with several hundred more points worth of stuff than your opponent in any game for basically no penalty.

That alone should tell you why Formations were a badly implemented idea that should have forever stayed in Apoc where they belonged.

Having just read the article on battle forged, I could imagine it'd be pretty easy for Orks to get that 9 cp brigade filled out using Grotz/Trukk Boyz for troops, Mek Guns/Walkers for heavy, Bikes/Koptas for FA, and Warbosses + a Painboy or even a Weirdboy as HQ. Elites are the only tricky part IMO. MANZ if you've got the points, or even some min size normal Nobs?

I do hope that this new system allows for asymmetrical battles. Not necessarily different points values per side, but vastly different organisational structures.

I also hope that not every variant army and his dog gets a special FoC.

 KommissarKiln wrote:
Having just read the article on battle forged, I could imagine it'd be pretty easy for Orks to get that 9 cp brigade filled out using Grotz/Trukk Boyz for troops, Mek Guns/Walkers for heavy, Bikes/Koptas for FA, and Warbosses + a Painboy or even a Weirdboy as HQ. Elites are the only tricky part IMO. MANZ if you've got the points, or even some min size normal Nobs?

Given we don't know what slot each unit will occupy (Grots might be Lords of War... you never know!!!), it might be somewhat premature to start planning out your army.

The inquisitors could just have bonuses that affect all imperium unit, or at least ones without the astartes keyword.

As for the harlequin, skitarii, and tempestus you c o old easily have a chart lacking HQ options, more fast attack options, or they could be given units they currently have in different battlefield roles.

I am excited at the possibility of a detachment granting no command points but allowing a pile of lords of war and/or fortifications as well as the elites/HQ/heavy support detachment for a wraith heavy armies in addition to the aforementioned space marine armies.

This is going to be FUN!

If the formations are fluffy, and don't add free stuff, then I can understand taking them. And that is what it looks like they are doing which is awesome.
An example would be Death Guard taking no vehicles (as it is stated they pretty much have none), but get +1 to saves for foot slogging troops.

Man, I hope they bring back Wraithsight for Wraith constructs again. What? It's fluffy!

 Kanluwen wrote:

tneva82 wrote:

 Kanluwen wrote:
They've already said that Platoons are still in.

Time to start converting veterans then...That or accept no command points! I think I might just baaaaaarely have enough for battalion at least if I paint the 3rd platoon but literally zero options for troops...

Veterans are currently Troops. I'd be surprised to see them get moved but who knows.

I can, theoretically, run a Brigade depending on how things shake out.
It won't be pleasant for me carrying everything, but c'est la vie I guess...I built towards that for the Cadian Detachment. Sadly I won't get to use my Shadowsword...

That\s the point. Since I have zero veterans(as indicated by "time to start converting veterans") I have zero options with troops for brigade and maybe not even for battalion so unless I convert some veterans(or buy platoon) can't even get battalion! So as I said. Time to convert some veterans to bulk out troop choices or I'm out of command points!

Though not fan of veteran spam :-/ For me infantry platoon is the core but that's point heavy troop choice. And money and painting....

tneva82 wrote:

 daedalus wrote:
I'm really worried about it from the perspective of IG though. Unless they change platoons, you can basically stack an entire army worth of infantry into a single troop slot if you wanted to. Six troop slots is 130 guardsmen, minimum, unless you're taking veterans. I think in most of my games at 1500-2000 points previously, I took about 50-60 (including HQ and vets) tops. That's a lot of padding to get the hip new points.

That is bit scary thought. Wonder how they handle IG. If they drop platoon idea that kinda runs against IG's idea of getting lots of infantry but with platoons those minimum troops would be real hassle to fill.

Veterans are there but required to use those to avoid 130 guardsmen...And still haven't figured good way to separate veterans and non veterans easily.

I wonder how much we could push the logistics of IG platoons without sacrificing too much flavor. Say the minimum was just 2 squads of Infantry and the command squad was a nifty upgrade, and mandatory if you had more than 3 basic infantry squads? I'm interested in the direction IG could go with being a little more flexible on what are troops in general, though. It doesn't necessarily bother me that infantry vets are infantry that don't need a platoon but it does irk me a little bit that all troops choices are just 32 flavors of infantry. I would have no problem moving Ogryns, bullgryns, ratlings, Scions, and sentinels to the troop slot.

 Howscat wrote:
I have a little bit of fear about my Militarum Tempestus army in a FOC. We have 2 HQs, 1 Troop, and now what would be 1 Flyer. We will more than likely need a specialized FOC for us to earn any command benefits.

A lot of problems like this are going to keep happening if GW keeps publishing 7 brand new forces every year and only releasing a few splashy models for them. The Grand Alliance mechanics from AoS mitigate this a little bit, but it shouldn't be enough. Harlequins need fleshed out more. More units to choose from in general. And then Skitarii and AdMech need folded into one book. I also don't think there is any real way to justify letting scions be their own army and not folding them into the main IG book. Giving every army a special snowflake FOC kind of eliminates the point of having FOCs IMO. Of course, I doubt GW would do such a thing, but 8ed is happening, so I guess all bets are off.

 casvalremdeikun wrote:

 H.B.M.C. wrote:
As long as it's not Special Character-based.

That's why I would rather they just skipped the whole role-changing ability and made detachments that allowed the roles to be used more instead of Troops. BA and White Scars spamming Fast Attack over Troops, Deathwing and Farsight Enclaves spamming Elites over Troops, and the like. Obviously they wouldn't get as many command points, if at all.

As long as it's generic rather than "white scars FA spam" I'm okay. But all fast attack is actually very unfluffy representation of white scars. That's special case for white scars and special case that can be seen by orks, iron hands, chaos etc as well as white scars.


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 ClockworkZion wrote:
He doesn't make up stuff to posts but rather runs a very loose filter over any rumors submitted. At least the last batch of rumors got a proper looking at and were rejected by third party sources which lead to a proper retraction. If these are fake then I can see the same happening here.

Decurion style FOCs I think could work as long as they can't also get Command Points to spend from the FOC. If that's our big balancing factor between different FOCs and even taking multiples of the same FOCs then it shouldn't be a bonus for armies who are gaining other formation bonuses.

Regardless we'll see. So much is still up in the air and it's not like we can't see fast changes going forward if something slipped the net in testing.

Looks like you aren't familiar with nafka...If you don't see something they post elsewhere you can be sure it's made up junk. They have zero reliable sources. Only accurate ones they get are basically copied from here, hastings, atia etc they spotted elsewhere. But nafka first...Only way those are accurate is when by pure accident they made up something that randomly actually hit. Give keyboard to monkey and eventually they make out shakespear principle.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 H.B.M.C. wrote:
Given we don't know what slot each unit will occupy (Grots might be Lords of War... you never know!!!), it might be somewhat premature to start planning out your army.

I'm pretty damn sure like 99% of battle roles are unchanged. Flyers got their own and there's slight chance they do some specific like jetbikes goes to fast attack or something but generally changing those heavily would be changing just for sake of changing. Old GW could do that to help sales(let's force people to buy terminators that are now troops while tac marines are elite and scouts fast attack!) but isn't new GW supposed to be changed?-)

A special (no need for the snowflake bit) FOC for each army is actually a cool way to balance, and allow fluffy combos to get Command Points without being as game-breaking as some formations. Really, it doesn't matter how you select your army. All Knight armies already exist, and still will, so restricting how others play with their toys is unfun. Allowing fluffy combos for CPs, or choose crazy combos but don't get as many/any CPs? That's a nice mechanic and makes 8th have 'formations-lite' and accommodate various army styles without breaking core concepts.

No, different benfits from army specific FOC actually can be just as bad as formations.

I do like the idea of command point benefits being army specific.
And they are one per phase only so hopefully they won't be too gamebreaking.

I think we should wait to see what you can spend Command Points on before we get all excited.

I find it interesting that they seem to be encouraging taking more elite slots than heavy or fast attack.

It's kind of like how is 30k where you get an extra optional HQ and Elite slot for the basic Force Org Chart.

I approve of the latest developments. They're great for the same reason that points are great. If every army is, at their core, organised along the same lines (just as they are equal in points) then this edition is going to be far more balanced than the previous one. I can't wait to see how these command points will work too.

I think some people might not quite get the idea behind these new FoCs. I doubt you can take multiples of them. Need more flyers, the answer isn't take 2 patrol FoCs, no the only answer available will be take one of the bigger FoCs and pay the bigger minimum cost. This is how they balance the game, This was how 5th handled things, I think this is how 8th will as well. I for one look forward to it.

 Coyote81 wrote:
I think some people might not quite get the idea behind these new FoCs. I doubt you can take multiples of them. Need more flyers, the answer isn't take 2 patrol FoCs, no the only answer available will be take one of the bigger FoCs and pay the bigger minimum cost. This is how they balance the game, This was how 5th handled things, I think this is how 8th will as well. I for one look forward to it.

No there is proof in gw post that without additional restrictions you can take multiple which is mandatory for allies which isn't going away either provenly.

 Coyote81 wrote:
I think some people might not quite get the idea behind these new FoCs. I doubt you can take multiples of them. Need more flyers, the answer isn't take 2 patrol FoCs, no the only answer available will be take one of the bigger FoCs and pay the bigger minimum cost. This is how they balance the game, This was how 5th handled things, I think this is how 8th will as well. I for one look forward to it.

Easier access to more unit types wasn't the most broken aspect of formations, it was the highly varied return on special rules for the same investment. For example:
Tyranids: spend ~1000pts and have it all turn up from reserve on the same turn (with no bonus to the roll)
Marines: spend ~1000pts, get +500pts free!

I'm sure you'll be able to take multiples of the new detachments, but I expect the balancing factor will be the much better bonuses you receive for focusing on larger generic ones. I have no doubt there will be a detachment that lets you field extra flyers or lots of Elites, but you're not going to be getting +9 command points for taking them like you will with a generic Brigade. In turn those command points can be used to level the field (such as re-rolling tricky To Hit rolls on flyers). I'm feeling confident this system will leave us in a much better place than 7E while still being flexible enough for everyone's existing armies.

One point that doesn't seem to have been discussed (unless I've missed it somewhere in the last 20 pages ) is dedicated transports.

Something I have always found bizarre in previous editions is the restriction on only being able to transport the unit the transport was bought for. Even within the grimdark, hidebound, follow-the-rules-at-all-times-or-else nature of the Imperium is this scenario plausible?

SM Company Commander: "Squad 4 is being overrun, have their Rhino withdraw them to their fallback position!"
SM Quartermaster: "That Rhino was taken out by enemy fire."
SM Company Commander: "Order Squad 6s Rhino to take over and pull them out!"
SM Quartermaster: "Sorry Sir, squad 4 was assigned Rhino 7-3C, we can't have Rhino 7-4F get them."
SM Company Commander: "Why in the name of Holy Terra not!"
SM Quartermaster: "Ermm... they didn't sign the insurance waiver?"

With the new FOCs allowing you to buy a transport pool for each detachment, I am going to take an educated guess that those transports can freely pick up any unit or combination of units that will fit in them (although the use of the term 'dedicated' still implies that this will be restricted to the detachment they are bought for rather than having free reign to pick up anyone from your army).

One interesting wrinkle with this is assuming ICs cannot join units a la AoS, Transports will have to allow multiple units to fit in them as long as there is space. In theory this allows a unit and a character to ride together, but will it also allow 2x 5-man marine squads to hitch a ride in a single Rhino, or allow a single Chimera to rescue the battered remnants of 2 IG squads as long as there are 12 survivors or less?

I personally hope so for rule-of-cool purposes


P.S. as all transports seem to be totally optional now does this mean that things like Tau Pathfinders will no longer be forced to buy a transport?

Dedicated transport could carry any unit. Just not start game with other inside. Ie no buying drop pod for devastators to carry unit that has no dedicated drop pod option(or rhino etc)

There may be some FOC's without any compulsory choices whatsoever for all anyone knows. The downside of such could be rather than earning you command points, it could give additional to the opponent which IMO would be a good trade off if people wanted to run armies that would not be viable within the typical FOC's, such as riptide wings etc.

 Chimera_Calvin wrote:
One point that doesn't seem to have been discussed (unless I've missed it somewhere in the last 20 pages ) is dedicated transports.

Something I have always found bizarre in previous editions is the restriction on only being able to transport the unit the transport was bought for. Even within the grimdark, hidebound, follow-the-rules-at-all-times-or-else nature of the Imperium is this scenario plausible?

This was never a thing. The rule in 7E was that a dedicated transport could only start the game carrying the unit it was bought for (or empty), but after that any unit was fair game.

Oops, I never played 7th and only glanced at the rules for 6th - I may be mixing something up with an older rule.

I still think transports in 8th will need to be allowed to transport multiple units and will be restricted to the detachment they are bought for, however

Chimera Calven, you could have done that the whole time. The only different is that you can't start in a transport that's not dedicated. They can even get in a transport first turn even if there is space.

Rippy
Post 06/05/2017 10:55:19 Subject: Warhammer 40k 8th Edition - Summary (all info in OP) 5th May 17 - Battle Forged Armies
Chimera Calven, you could have done that the whole time. The only different is that you can't start in a transport that's not dedicated. They can even get in a transport first turn even if there is space.

as stated...

Chimera_Calvin
Post 06/05/2017 10:53:02 Subject: Warhammer 40k 8th Edition - Summary (all info in OP) 5th May 17 - Battle Forged Armies
Oops, I never played 7th and only glanced at the rules for 6th - I may be mixing something up with an older rule.

They're great for the same reason that points are great. If every army is, at their core, organised along the same lines (just as they are equal in points) then this edition is going to be far more balanced than the previous one

Thats my hope too.