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Ever try the 20 man rubric bomb? I did this once against dark eldar ravangers, dropped them in turn 3 after most of the bloodshead had happened and used vets of the long war double tapped into 2 ravagers blowing one away and completly crippling the other one.

Not the smartest tactic mind you but because everyone was playing "really competitive highly focused lists" my random right field drop really through them for a loop. Won 2 of 3 games that tournament.......

Yet to try the rubrick, it does sound quite funny. Do you keep dark crystal in reserve to fish them out of cc when they inevitably get tied up?

Never understood the rubrick concept.

Isn't it more effective to just do it with Scarabs?

I never had to use the crystal to do that, normally by the time i drop them its either been the final nail in the coffen or a last ditch effort to strike back.

I dont have scarab occult terms so i cant comment on them but with the high number of access to plasma out there scarab dont seem as viable.

The best way to think of the rubrick trick is as a secondary anvil to force my opponent into a corner. Like i said, easy to counter and hard to pull off but when your opponent isnt expecting it it can make them change their gameplans. Its not easy to kill 20 rubrics in one go. And if you can get weaver of fates or glamor on them? Thats one hell of an anvil, 20 -1 to hit 2+/3++ vs d1 or 3+/4++ vs anything else guys? Oh cast prescience on them from a exalted or deamon prince for hitting on 2's rerolling ones.... and veterans for +1 to wound..... its like anything else in our bag of tricks. If you buff it up to crazy levels you get a crazy effective and scarey squad.

On the Scarabs vs Rubrick -

10 Scarabs with 2 Soulreapers = 428
20 Rubric with 2 Soulreapers = 433

You can then add 2 Missile Racks to the Scarabs for an additional 44 points. (472 total)

Both units have the same amount of wounds, Scarabs have the better base armour save, but also run the risk of dying outright to 2 damage weapons.

I’m seriously tempted to run a 9 Scarab unit. My 5 man unit did alright at the LGT once I ditched using deepstrike and went with using DMC on them.
It just sucks that they use power swords at str 4 though.

Dmc? Why would it be different from deepstrike? Am I missing anything?

Anyways, Scarabs also don't eat as many CPs as they CAN deepstrike naturally, and don't need the moral autopass as much.

 BoomWolf wrote:
Dmc? Why would it be different from deepstrike? Am I missing anything?

Anyways, Scarabs also don't eat as many CPs as they CAN deepstrike naturally, and don't need the moral autopass as much.

Using the DMC allows you to essentially deep strike turn 1.

Essentially, with terminators, you get the option of using both. If you know you can wait for turn 2, then deep striking is fine, however, if you need that firepower and reasonably durable mid table screen turn 1, then using DMC is really nice. It depends totally on the game, but, I found a lot more success from using DMC on a squad of 5 turn 1, than I did when using it on a daemon prince or deep striking turn 2.

Of course, if you deep strike and have the DMC, you can essentially perform a second deep strike sometime later in the game with the terminators, giving you additional mobility.

Moral could be an issue for a blob of 20 Rubric, but they can be surprisingly durable and when using 20 you’ll probably always be deep striking them for the initial advantage or hiding them from sight and using the DMC on them.

Moral isnt an issue, just hold on to a few cp in case things go south.

I just got through a string of games and figured I would drop some of my experiences into the collective wisdom of this thread.

Generally:
Smite, Smite, Smite.....then Smite some more: So when I first started playing with the codex, I was trying to cast all the powers and buff etc. That is a mistake. The only real advantage the Tsons have is our mastery of Smite in the form of no penalty and the extra 6" range which is HUGE. Now, I take at least 4 casters (3 HQ and Shaman) or more. Their primary goal is to Smite. And this strategy has worked really well. The last game I Smited a Stromraven to death from full wounds, finished off another one, and kill two scout squads. Just smiting. Also, keep your HQs relatively together so you can try to concentrate on one unit if possible. And since Smite goes of on a 5 (4 with the +1 Ahriman or WL trait) it is reliable, which leads me to my next point.

If you are relying on psychic buffs for your strategy, you are already half-way to losing: Don't get me wrong, I bring all the favorite spells on my casters to cast after they smite. However, if your strategy is dependent on casting certain spells, then get ready to lose a lot. The problem is psychic powers are unreliable outside of Smite. 7 to get off Glamer? That is a fail rate of 50%. And it is a much bigger deal to fail a power that is not Smite. roll a 4 and miss a smite. Ok, that is slightly less wounds done this round. Roll a 4 and fail Warptime? Well if your whole battle plan was relying on Warptime to get a certain unit in combat, then well you are screwed. As long as 8th edition does not let you even cast a spell twice, even if the first is a failure, you can not reasonably rely on buffs from psychic powers as a strategy. The buffs are good. I use them, often. But my strategy always puts them second to smite. And since that change I have noticed my army preforming much better.

As for Units I have used on multiple occasions:
Ahriman: Awesome, I bring him in every list, and any time I have not brought him I regretted it. He gets that +1 which makes Smite that much deadlier, makes Doombolt an 8, which while not great, is much more reasonable if you want to try for more Mortal Wounds, and that +1 makes the buff spells more reliable. I have him on foot as I don't have the disc model, but if anyone has used both, is the disc really worth the extra 35 points?

Daemon Princes: Awesome bring them. Nuff Said.

Terminator Sorcerer: I was really digging him for a while, but now I am kinda over it. He does get that +1 for the first case which is nice, but at 140 points, you only save 40 points on bringing a daemon prince with wings, and he is more expensive than a foot Ahriman. The natural deepstrike is good, but the beta rule hurts that, and I find that many times I just end up bring him in near my lines so he can contribute to the smite attack. The inferno combi-bolter is nice, but once he is on the field, I find I don't really get to use it as he needs to advance to get anywhere after the initial deepstrike. I am trying some lists without him, now so we will see if I miss him.

Tgor Shaman: Again Awesome. 90 points for fast smite action. The only spell I ever bring on him now is the healing spell, if I need it late game. Otherwise his job is to sit behind my enlightened buffing them, and casting smite. I am thinking of getting another one to add to my army.

Dreadnought (I am old school and I hate hellbrute): Only worth bringing with the twin laser cannon for AT, as dealing with T8 is probably our biggest weakness (actually that is true of a lot of army builds). I would bring him with LC and ML but I don't have the model for that and I am very into WYSIWYG. Also that stratagem that lets him shoot twice can really catch people off guard with anything that is aggressive and in your lines quickly.

SoT: I love these models so much. I have ones that are painted great, and I have used at least one squad in EVERY battle I have played with Tsons, going back to the Index. That said they are just sooooooo over priced for what they do. (as are all terminators). Like 10 points. I have used the big block of them deepstriking, and for how much you pay, they just don't preform. And then since at 2000 points they are like 25% of your army, you generally don't have much more threats and so people concentrate on them and they die. And if you are in a Knight heavy meta, forget it. Knights kill them so easily with all that D2 shooting it is silly. I have been fielding them lately as a minimum size squad with no toys just to harass the backfield. They are better for that, but at 204 for a minimum still too expensive for what you get. As much as I love these guys, my newest list switches them out for Flamers of Tzeentch.

Cultists: good objective campers, and tax units. what else is there to say about them.

Tgors: I like them with the blades. I made the mistake of getting some with the chainsword and pistol, and those are not good. the pistol shot not only is not worth losing the -1 AP, but many times I don't even shoot it because I don't want casualties that will take me out of charge range. Personally I think one bigger unit (around 20) with the horn out of deepstrike is the way to go. I have also used a 10 man in a rhino. I think that is better than trying to walk up the field with a larger squad. Also the rhino is nice, that if it lives, it is great for soaking up overwatch. If rhinos were cheaper I think this would be a really good way to take them, like three units of them. That still might work, if someone tried is post it and let me know. Personally I think you always bring one deepstirke squad, and don't bring more unless you are going whole hog and bring like 3 or 4 units, some deepstrike and some in rhinos.

Rubrics: Again, how much do I love this unit. I have been using Rubrics in my chaos armies the majority of games going back to 3rd edition. And quite frankly, in 8th edition they are the best they have ever been. To bad that is very mediocre at best. I don't think they are as bad as a lot of people on Dakka think they are, but they are definitively mediocre. If they got the 2-3 point price drop they need, then we would be talking. In the whole Rubrics v. SoT debate I think that Rubrics are probably the better choice. Both have a 2+ verse small arms fire making them difficult to shift with rapid fire type weapons. So most of your opponents will then use heavier guns on them, and that is where the 2W of the SoT becomes a liability, especially in metas with lots of Knights, Plasma, etc. (which is I think is most metas). The powerswords are nice, however they are really only good against low tough, good save models, which is basically marines, and who has trouble killing marines?

Note: Personally I don't think it would be game breaking to give the Aspiring Sorcerer the ability to cast normal smite, it would really just add into the only thing our Army has any advantage at. That would actually make Rubrics with taking at 20 points a pop (I still think SoT would not be worth it).

Tgor Enlightened with spears: So I think the Enlightened really are two different units. I have been going back and forth on the spear guys. They seem to be very hit or miss. I have games where they engage in combat and deliver those D2 hits and do a lot of damage, then I have games where they do nothing as the enemy makes all of the saves as the spears are only -1 AP. The problem is that their primary targets are 2W infantry and vehicles. However most 2W infantry and almost all vehicles have a good save, so you are really relying on that -1 to get though the armor. And against vehicles, they are only St5, so if you don't get lucky and get a good number of the auto wounds, then they are not going to put that many wounds on the vehicle. They are pretty fragile as well (literally too as the models break super easy). T4 2W and 5++ really doesn't save you against any even decent shooting attacks. However, now that I bring other units that are much deadlier, (Flamers, Pink Horror Blob) so my opponents are not targeting them as much, they have been preforming better. Also, take 9 or don't take any.

Tgor Enlightened with bows: Holy mediocre bow attacks batman! These guys are the vanilla ice cream of a Tson army, yea it is ice cream and I like ice cream, but can I get some chocolate sauce on it?. They screen your fast moving HQs to move up and smite and charge, they put out some decent shooting attacks and cause a few wounds, then promptly get whittled down by any competent shooting attacks, and die. Hopefully they got your Daemon princes in position first. The problem is the shooting attack2 x St5 AP-1 D1 looks good on paper. But it is not enough shots to really worry hoards, the only -1 means that most marines are still saving on a 4+, and the D1 makes them not great against vehicles. Really if the shooting attack was 3 x St4 AP -1 D1 attacks I think that these guys would go from meh, to yeah. In 8th edition, shooting attacks need to either have lots and lots of shoots, or do big damage if they wound. Shooting in the middle (which includes reaper auto cannons, heavy bolters etc.) just don't cut it under 8th mechanics.

The only heavy's I have used are the Maulerfiend and LC Predator. I don't like the Maulerfiend. I only have one, so that may be the problem, but it has not gotten into combat yet. It is just to fragile, and the lack of a shooting attack really hinders it. Plus my meta has lots of Flyer units with Supersonic, which it cannot even do anything about. The LC predator is what it is. It is like one of the only three ways we can get any really AT Las Cannon shooting, but it is not really special to Tsons. I have also used the Helldrake, and it is really bad. It is not good at killing anything as it doesn't have enough attacks to threaten infantry, and as its close combat attack is only St7 and is only -1 AP it has trouble getting wounds through on vehicles. It doesn't even get -1 to hit.

This is my opinion, have at it.

Those are all really good points. A mutalith vortex beast can help make maulerfiends better, same with making helldrakes pretty nasty bumping it up to ap-2 in combat.

I also have to agree with the tzaangors, pistols are not worth it. Make them choppy and let them have fun.

I am thinking of taking a big block of rubrics to deal with my buds firewarrior line. He uses some combo to get them up to 42" with their basic guns, with 3 shots at like 21". I feel rubrics can shrug off most the firepower and make them pay, deep striking them t2. Scarab occult may be an easier to use option though, smaller footprint and just as much firepower.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Those are all really good points. A mutalith vortex beast can help make maulerfiends better, same with making helldrakes pretty nasty bumping it up to ap-2 in combat.

I also have to agree with the tzaangors, pistols are not worth it. Make them choppy and let them have fun.

I am thinking of taking a big block of rubrics to deal with my buds firewarrior line. He uses some combo to get them up to 42" with their basic guns, with 3 shots at like 21". I feel rubrics can shrug off most the firepower and make them pay, deep striking them t2. Scarab occult may be an easier to use option though, smaller footprint and just as much firepower.

I think that a large block of rubrics could be good in that circumstance. I think I am also going to try a big squad as well

I was tempted by 19 Rubric and an Exalted Sorcerer in a Storm Eagle, but, that’s like nearly 50% of your points lol.

Does mutalith vortex beast worth it?
I have bunch of tzaangors but MVB is only 5++ 14W and if i want to rely on buffs i need 2. And it's already 300 pts, it looks like it's easier just bring 30 more bare tzaangors :/

Your looking at the mutalith wrong. If your plan is to use it to just buff tzaangors then yeah, not worth it. But its also a great distraction unit and can put out a sick number of mortal wounds, especially if your opponent drops it below 7 wounds.

One tournament game i took it and it did amazing. My last game was tsons vs tsons, 1500 pts each. I ran it forward turn 1 with my tzaangors being teleported up using dark matter crystal, my deamon prince warlord with eatherstride flying up, and my rhino driving up popping smoke with 10 rubrics in it. The tzaangors and dp made it into cc, the tzaangors tying up a squad of 5 rubrics on a flank and the dp murdering a squad of 5 rubrics in cc.

This left my mutalith to fire off its mortal wound cannon on a 3rd squad of rubrics dropping them by 2.

My opponent saw the danger of the mutalith, but had to kill the dp first. He did do that (as planned bwa hahaha) and then tried to kill the mutalith but only dropped it to 6 wounds.

My 2nd turn my mutalith moved up, rubrics jumped out and took up protective position around the mutalith, and i used the 18 blast of mortal wounds. Due to positioning of everything that blast killed 4 enemy rubrics (1 from 4 different squads) and put a wound onto his deamon prince and arhiman. Thats 8 mortal wounds put out within 2 turns, and with it protected by the rubrics infront of it and my other shooting / units working forward the enemy was already half dead at this point. He tried to kill the mutalith at this point but between glamor and weaver of fates couldnt do it, it sat at 2 wounds left, and he surrendered as next turn all his rubrics would have been dead and i had only lost my warlord, a 5 man rubric squad, and half my tzaangors (which finished his squad in cc and would have been charging the dp next).

My long winded point was he thought the mutalith was there for tzaangor boosting but i used it as a distraction and mortal wound engine. It is more than just a booster, it can hold its own in cc against most things other than dedicated cc units, and its fast enough to get where you want it thanks to advancing not stopping its ability to work because its not a shooting attack. If you make your opponent focus on something else (Dp with wings, eatherstride, and warptime!) It will at most take some shots to weaken it making it stronger or just get ignored so again it lives until t2 OR they will focus fire on it and ignore the DP (which at that point is amazing good for you because a deamon prince with 4++ saves and incredible speed and cc ability being ignored is handing you that area of the board).

Btw can we use Dark crystal teleport + warptime? Someone told me it was FAQed (can not) but i can not find it.

 ArtyomTrityak wrote:
Btw can we use Dark crystal teleport + warptime? Someone told me it was FAQed (can not) but i can not find it.

Dark Crystal acts the same way as deepstriking as far as I can tell, in that Warptime cant be done on it.

Great write up xeen, I tend to agree with what you've said. I too forget smite is where it's at. I have good news for you: Doombolt was dropped to WC8 in the FAQ, so Ahriman gets it off on a 7 - much more reliable.

I also want to bring the word and testify! I'm now of the opinion that 33pts saved for a Spawn is a great investment, as it can change the game. In my recent game I hit my opponent's captain with doombolt and followed it up with a bolt of change. The all-new and improved gribbly-captain spawned into CC with his LT and hellblasters, avoiding overwatch and shutting down a big threat. Plus, well, c'mon. If you don't want to transmogrify a hated lapdog of the emperor into a mindbending abomination, and then watch as he devours his own horrified brothers, then you aint no Thousand Son. 10/10 would hatefully pour the elemental power of the warp into a smug bossy marine again.

 grouchoben wrote:
Great write up xeen, I tend to agree with what you've said. I too forget smite is where it's at. I have good news for you: Doombolt was dropped to WC8 in the FAQ, so Ahriman gets it off on a 7 - much more reliable.

I also want to bring the word and testify! I'm now of the opinion that 33pts saved for a Spawn is a great investment, as it can change the game. In my recent game I hit my opponent's captain with doombolt and followed it up with a bolt of change. The all-new and improved gribbly-captain spawned into CC with his LT and hellblasters, avoiding overwatch and shutting down a big threat. Plus, well, c'mon. If you don't want to transmogrify a hated lapdog of the emperor into a mindbending abomination, and then watch as he devours his own horrified brothers, then you aint no Thousand Son. 10/10 would hatefully pour the elemental power of the warp into a smug bossy marine again.

Unfortunately, it only changed bolt of change to an 8, not doom bolt

I always keep 33 pts for the random chaos spaw . Just the threat can make the opponent change things up a bit. Though i thought it spawned at least an 1 away from the enemy, not into auto cc. I will have to look at it again.

Ah no, I've been cheating! Thanks Xeen :(

Azuza, doombolt and gift of chaos both specify that the spawn must be set up within 1" of the slain character, but does not specify past that. Since a spawn has a 50mm base, within 1" is actually about 3" from the character's base, which means you can very often place the spawn within 1" of another unit, especially if that character was a buffer.

You absolutely can dark matter crystal and warptime as I explained here: https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/1950/727574.page#10083333

I just looked at DMC wording again with that link, and I have a question. It says "bearer or unit of Thousand Sons Infantry". The bearer part doesn't seem to have the infantry wording, so if a DP brings it can he use it?

Yep...

Sneggy wrote:
You absolutely can dark matter crystal and warptime as I explained here: https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/1950/727574.page#10083333

This means i can deploy 20 tzaangors in the corner and then dark crystal them + wartime and make 1st turn charge. Interesting...

Page 6 in the rulebook errata states, that units using DMC, GoI, da jump etc. count as having moved for the purposes of shooting and they should be treated as arriving as reinforcements. With the intend to give heavy weapons the -1 penalty.

My guess is, they just are not aware of that (older) paragraph.
The stupid thing about it is, that you should be allowed to do neither.
Since its common to allow DMC etc. turn one it's ok but I can imagine they will at least forbid warptime etc. afterwards to prevent autocharges.
I would at least talk about it with your opponent before you drop that 30 Tzaangors on front of him.

It's one thing to use a rule that per wording is not correct but ''officially'' allowed - but it's another to simply use that as argument to use another one. I'm sure they will nerf it as soon as they realise what they have done.


Another question, what are your favourite / most effective tools to deal with Mortarion?
Smite, Dakka and chip off some last wounds with a buffed DP?

 Grotrebel wrote:
Page 6 in the rulebook errata states, that units using DMC, GoI, da jump etc. count as having moved for the purposes of shooting and they should be treated as arriving as reinforcements. With the intend to give heavy weapons the -1 penalty.

My guess is, they just are not aware of that (older) paragraph.
The stupid thing about it is, that you should be allowed to do neither.
Since its common to allow DMC etc. turn one it's ok but I can imagine they will at least forbid warptime etc. afterwards to prevent autocharges.
I would at least talk about it with your opponent before you drop that 30 Tzaangors on front of him.

It's one thing to use a rule that per wording is not correct but ''officially'' allowed - but it's another to simply use that as argument to use another one. I'm sure they will nerf it as soon as they realise what they have done.


Another question, what are your favourite / most effective tools to deal with Mortarion?
Smite, Dakka and chip off some last wounds with a buffed DP?

I usually just enter a slug fest with him and beat that .little nerd into a nurgley mush.

But I also play World Eaters, so that's my counter to everything.

Defiler with twin laz set up to wound on 2's + deamon prince + rubric smite normally deals with my Mortarian issues. If i dont kill him i make him so weak that he becomes an easy target next turn. Granted my way relies a lot on powers going off and positioning, but he is such a big model it shouldn't be that hard to do.

wonder how a defiler with 2 laser shots can seriously threat Mortarion, also if you wound at 2+ he saves at 4++ and you still must hit him with just 2 shots. U need lot of lasers to deal with Mortarion, didn't take into account if he starts first and cast miasma on himself.

Mortal wounds and a high invuln CC threat are the way I deal with a bully unit like Mortarian. I normally run a LoC, who loves to party with morty. Like xeen said, keep your casters bunched, offer him a good charge (he has to take it), and counter with all the smites, and a cabalist focussed death hex.

I said defiler + deamon prince + rubrics smiting. Defiler starts off putting a few wounds onto him (between laz cannona and battlecannon), rubrics and dp follow up with mortal wounds from smite / infernal gaze / whatever, then dp charges in to either finish the job or make it so morty isnt a serious threat anymore thanks to diabolic strength and talons being such a nice combo.