Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

 Mmmpi wrote:
Unfortunately, that upgrade only goes on the Stormtrooper officer (Tempestus officer), so it maxes at two orders.

Inspired Tactics works on any AM officer. The relic is what you’re thinking of which allows a third order on a 2+. That relic is storm troopers only but he is using storm troopers.

Ah, I was thinking of the Rod of Command upgrade.

PanzerLeader wrote:
Its the Inspired Tactics stratagem. Orders no longer require you to shoot immediately after issuing so you can give a unit reroll ones and something else.

EDIT: I misread it. It doesn’t override the one order per turn restriction. It’s just a bonus order for the officer. You could use it to have one commander give three orders if needed.

You want the Laurels of Command relic. That allows the officer to issue an extra order to the same unit on a 4+. For Scions that'll usually be "Reroll 1s to hit" and "Re-roll wounds against Vehicles/Monsters." Side note, Combined Squads stratagem only works very specifically on Infantry Squads (the Codex entry), so you can't consolidate Tempestus Scions.

I play mixed Sisters/Militarum Tempestus as my primary army, and here's what I consider the best parts:
- Plasma, Plasma, Plasma. Cheap, reliable plasma where you want it, when you want it, and it fills a huge gap in the Sisters armory. It gives you an efficient way to deal with 2W troops or other things that are inefficient to kill with bolters and meltas.
- Objective Secured. You can skip out on Battle Sisters and just take MT Scion Squads instead. Gives you more room for good stuff like Dominions, Seraphim, and Arco-Flagellants.
- Deep Strike. Seraphim technically have it, but their special weapons don't synergize with the ability, unlike Scions. Helps a lot if your opponent is canny and keeps your front line of Sisters contained.

What you don't get:
- Long Range Firepower. You can fit in Taurox Primes, Valkyries, and Vultures, but their long-range shooting tends to be inefficient, especially compared to their short-range options. The Vendetta is available, but only at a hefty price. If you want to fill this gap in the armory, try non-Tempestus Guard.
- Tons of CP. Filling a Battalion with Scions is trivial, but it's literally impossible to fill a Brigade without losing the Doctrine. Again, if you're looking for tons of CP, non-Tempestus Guard is where it's at.

Hope that helps. I have a lot of good things to say about mixed Guard/Sisters, so if you want to know more, just hit me up.

@KestrelM1: would you recommend pure detachments or a mixed brigade to mcphail? I’m recommending pure detachments in a combined army but curious what you’d recommend with your additional experience

I'd keep them pure, if possible. Assuming an AS Warlord, staying pure gets you:

MT Doctrine
Superior Intelligence Stratagem (shoot at deep strikers at -1)
Take Cover Stratagem (+1 to saves)
Vengeance For Cadia Stratagem (re-roll everything vs. Chaos)
AM Relics* - I recommend Kurov's Aquila and/or Laurels of Command

AS Stratagems

* (It's not clear to me whether you can use the Stratagem to buy Relics if your warlord isn't the correct faction. If someone knows, let me know, otherwise check with your TO.)

Now, to be honest a lot of those benefits are fairly niche, other than the MT Doctrine. But Vengeance for Cadia and Superior Intelligence are devastating in the right circumstances. And it really shouldn't be tough to keep things separate.

Two Primes with rods, a Command Squad w/ Plasma, and 3 Scion squads with Plasma runs a clean 400 points and gets you 3 CP and 10 Plasma Guns with orders, on demand.

I'd think about a mixed Brigade only if you plan to have some other "pure" detachment to actually burn through the CPs. The mixed Brigade nets you 12 CP, sure, but you'd be limited to BRB stratagems only.

KestrelM1 wrote:
I'd keep them pure, if possible. Assuming an AS Warlord, staying pure gets you:

AM Relics* - I recommend Kurov's Aquila and/or Laurels of Command

AS Stratagems

* (It's not clear to me whether you can use the Stratagem to buy Relics if your warlord isn't the correct faction. If someone knows, let me know, otherwise check with your TO.)
.

Really good question - the stratagem says "Your army can have one extra relic from the Heirlooms....." I guess it depends if the word "Extra" matters as you can't give an initial one to a AM character if you don't have a AM warlord?

KestrelM1 wrote:
I'd keep them pure, if possible. Assuming an AS Warlord, staying pure gets you:

MT Doctrine
Superior Intelligence Stratagem (shoot at deep strikers at -1)
Take Cover Stratagem (+1 to saves)
Vengeance For Cadia Stratagem (re-roll everything vs. Chaos)
AM Relics* - I recommend Kurov's Aquila and/or Laurels of Command

AS Stratagems

* (It's not clear to me whether you can use the Stratagem to buy Relics if your warlord isn't the correct faction. If someone knows, let me know, otherwise check with your TO.)

Now, to be honest a lot of those benefits are fairly niche, other than the MT Doctrine. But Vengeance for Cadia and Superior Intelligence are devastating in the right circumstances. And it really shouldn't be tough to keep things separate.

Two Primes with rods, a Command Squad w/ Plasma, and 3 Scion squads with Plasma runs a clean 400 points and gets you 3 CP and 10 Plasma Guns with orders, on demand.

I'd think about a mixed Brigade only if you plan to have some other "pure" detachment to actually burn through the CPs. The mixed Brigade nets you 12 CP, sure, but you'd be limited to BRB stratagems only.

Death Guard FAQ answers the question about relics. You may buy extra relics as long as you have access to the appropriate stratagem. Specific example given is having a CSM warlord and buying a DG relic. You may put Blade of Admonition on an AS model from an AS model and then buy AM relics from the stratagem.

That does mean the Sister's model has to be your Warlord of course.
If you're taking an AM detachment, you'd be mad to miss out on taking an AM Warlord for their warlord trait over the sisters dubious 'Re-roll Moral.'

PanzerLeader wrote:
Death Guard FAQ answers the question about relics. You may buy extra relics as long as you have access to the appropriate stratagem. Specific example given is having a CSM warlord and buying a DG relic. You may put Blade of Admonition on an AS model from an AS model and then buy AM relics from the stratagem.

Awesome, thanks for that.

AdmiralHalsey wrote:If you're taking an AM detachment, you'd be mad to miss out on taking an AM Warlord for their warlord trait over the sisters dubious 'Re-roll Moral.'

Aye, that just depends on what you value more: the free Blade of Admonition plus one of the BRB warlord traits, or something like Grand Strategist. It's awkward with Scions, because your Primes really want to drop next to their troops to issue orders, and tend to get killed quickly after that. You'd have to throw in an extra Prime or Commissar to just sit around and be a Warlord without much else to do.

That problem is specific to Militarum Tempestus detachments, though. Standard Guard detachments won't have that problem, and yeah, you should probably use an AM warlord in that case. Grand Strategist and Old Grudges are fantastic.

But at that point, aren't you just playing Guard with Sisters allies, and not the other way around?

I love the Blade of Admonition, its amazing.. lol I'll never leave home without it. My Canoness in the past 3 games with the Blade of Admonition has killed well over 200pts each game. Players are starting to know what it does tho.. so might not be as useful soon lol.

See, I knew I had the right question for the right people! Excellent insights, PanzerLeader and KestrelM1, y'all rock! I'd overlooked that those Relics are free since there's no base wargear to buy, and that they're unlocked with a single-faction detachment. Sweet!

So based on this I'll keep a Canoness Warlord in the back with my HB Rets (probably taking WT Tenacious Survivor and staying out of harm's way), take my initial Relic as the BoA on a second, more aggressive Canoness, and use the Imperial Commander's Armory stratagem to spend 1 CP for the Aquila and be pretty confident that the CP comes back quickly and then gains me even more. No brainer.

In a 2k game like this, I could spend 3 CP on Armory to take both the Aquila and the Laurels, since I've got 2 MT characters, and be reasonably sure to get them back by turn 2 or 3... A bit riskier, but still a reasonable chance of having plenty to fuel rerolls, Martyrdom, and Celestine. Laurels seems like a punchier option with a bigger squad than I'm running, but could still be a game changer.

All that plus a few handy-if-circumstatial strategems makes me glad I asked... I was all about max CPs without considering the range of things to use them on. I will miss those backfield screening BSS units, though...

Alright, nothing like settling on an LVO list the Tuesday before. Here’s what I’m bringing:

AS Battalion
Celestine + 1 Gemini
Canoness
Imagifer
2x9 BSS, 3 storm bolters
9 BSS, 2 storm bolters
2x5 Retributors, 4 HB
8 seraphim, 4 inferno pistols

BA Spearhead
Captain, Jump Pack, thunder hammer, storm bolter
9 Death Company, 9 bolters, 6 chainswords, 2 powerfists, 1 powersword
5 Devs, 2 lascannon, 1 missile, 1 HB
3x Predator, autocannon, lascannon sponsons

AM Supreme Command
Company Commander [WARLORD]
2x Primaris Psykers

Hope to see you guys and girls there. Be sure to drop by the pink sisters and say hello.

 Amishprn86 wrote:
I love the Blade of Admonition, its amazing.. lol I'll never leave home without it. My Canoness in the past 3 games with the Blade of Admonition has killed well over 200pts each game. Players are starting to know what it does tho.. so might not be as useful soon lol.

Huh. My Canoness gets it too, and she's never achieved anything meaningful with it. I try not to allow situations where she can use it, and in general when the situations for her to use it arise despite my efforts it's way too late.

It's got great stats-for-cost, but the platform is a crippling weakness.

I disagree, ive found her to be absolutely amazing. In one game against nids she took down a hive tyrant much to the jaw dropping surprise of the nid player. Another one she cleaned up 2 carnifexes, a handful of warriors and a wound off a zoanthrope before she went down to smite. All unsupported.

 Inquisitor Lord Katherine wrote:

 Amishprn86 wrote:
I love the Blade of Admonition, its amazing.. lol I'll never leave home without it. My Canoness in the past 3 games with the Blade of Admonition has killed well over 200pts each game. Players are starting to know what it does tho.. so might not be as useful soon lol.

Huh. My Canoness gets it too, and she's never achieved anything meaningful with it. I try not to allow situations where she can use it, and in general when the situations for her to use it arise despite my efforts it's way too late.

It's got great stats-for-cost, but the platform is a crippling weakness.

I throw her up there as fast as i can, i try to use it lol. Can not get use out of it if you dont use it

How do y'all get your Canoness up the table to make good use of her BoA? The handful of times I've run Heavy Flamer Rets she rides in their Rhino. My new scheme is to run her behind footslogging Stormbolter Doms and maybe Advance T1 for a T2 charge. Also thinking about starting her close enough to a backline Imagifier to give her an extra move before the Imagifier then supports HB Rets for the rest of the game.

What else works to protect and deliver the relic blade?

She is in a Rhino with my Acro's and Priest, turn 1 it moves+advances, turn 2 gets out and charges. (unless its against nids or Orks or something that comes to me, then its noramlly turn 1 and i dont need to move the Rhino)

I dont protect her honestly, no one shoots Acros lol, they are more worried about the turn 24" moving Seraphim/Celestine, and the 6 Dom units Scouting. Whats a No AP melee unit going to do with a 49pt character?

I dont care about the Aura b.c if i'm out of my Repressors i'm as good as dead (there are some times a few survives a round in cover, but not anywhere i need them to be).

I don't have a vehicle for her. If I had a vehicle for her, I'd be making a 50 point waste of points into a 150+ point waste of points, so she's never getting near the enemy unless someone deepstrikes on her head or my army is already dead. And because I can't control what my opponent is deepstriking [and therefore I have no guarantee that my Canoness can kill it], I'd rather not leave the option open for them to do so at all. If my army is already dead, then it doesn't matter.

If I were to buy her a transport, I'd be investing at least another 100 points in getting her to buff the Dominions on turn two, which could be better spent on a squad of Rets or an Exorcist which can be receiving her buff, in effect on turn 1, and denying the dropzone.


I also don't think a rhino full of arco-flagellants is very good either. It's too many points, not as efficient or flexible as competing options, and doesn't come into play until turn 2. At the very least, if I had a killy melee unit to hit on turn 2 with, I'd make it a unit of tank-breakers.

 Inquisitor Lord Katherine wrote:
I don't have a vehicle for her. If I had a vehicle for her, I'd be making a 50 point waste of points into a 150+ point waste of points, so she's never getting near the enemy unless someone deepstrikes on her head or my army is already dead. And because I can't control what my opponent is deepstriking [and therefore I have no guarantee that my Canoness can kill it], I'd rather not leave the option open for them to do so at all. If my army is already dead, then it doesn't matter.

If I were to buy her a transport, I'd be investing at least another 100 points in getting her to buff the Dominions on turn two, which could be better spent on a squad of Rets or an Exorcist which can be receiving her buff, in effect on turn 1, and denying the dropzone.

Understandable, for me i'm am extremely aggressive Sob player, i dont like Ret HB's, i dont like Exorcist, etc.. So when i have 9 units in your deployment turn 1-2, she is better up there with them.

 Amishprn86 wrote:

 Inquisitor Lord Katherine wrote:
I don't have a vehicle for her. If I had a vehicle for her, I'd be making a 50 point waste of points into a 150+ point waste of points, so she's never getting near the enemy unless someone deepstrikes on her head or my army is already dead. And because I can't control what my opponent is deepstriking [and therefore I have no guarantee that my Canoness can kill it], I'd rather not leave the option open for them to do so at all. If my army is already dead, then it doesn't matter.

If I were to buy her a transport, I'd be investing at least another 100 points in getting her to buff the Dominions on turn two, which could be better spent on a squad of Rets or an Exorcist which can be receiving her buff, in effect on turn 1, and denying the dropzone.

Understandable, for me i'm am extremely aggressive Sob player, i dont like Ret HB's, i dont like Exorcist, etc.. So when i have 9 units in your deployment turn 1-2, she is better up there with them.

So am I. I think we all are, because every turn you're getting shelled by Imperial Guard artillery is a turn you're getting further away from winning.

I put 7 units [not counting an additional 5 Immolators] across the board on turn 1.

I don't think boxes of flagellants are any good. A Canoness, 8 flagellants, and a priest come up to about 300 points, which is just under twice the cost of an anti-infantry equipped unit of Dominions in an Immolator. Comparatively, the Dominions will be able to engage on turn 1 and be able to engage the target of their choice, while the close-quarters blob will either be engaging what's left or what the enemy is offering to them.

The arco-flagellants get more attacks at higher strength, but the Dominions get to chose the target for their attacks, and the guns on the Immolator also make up some of the difference.


The Arco box has validity since it can kill the Dominions out of combat when the enemy counter-charges them, but I'd rather rely on proactive charge denial from Seraphim and St.C or my tanks than rescuing my units once they've been attacked.




I don't think it's possible to completely drop the backfield units in an all-comers list. It's just too big of a vulnerability, and you still have to hold the objectives that are there.

PanzerLeader wrote:
Alright, nothing like settling on an LVO list the Tuesday before. Here’s what I’m bringing:

AS Battalion
Celestine + 1 Gemini
Canoness
Imagifer
2x9 BSS, 3 storm bolters
9 BSS, 2 storm bolters
2x5 Retributors, 4 HB
8 seraphim, 4 inferno pistols

BA Spearhead
Captain, Jump Pack, thunder hammer, storm bolter
9 Death Company, 9 bolters, 6 chainswords, 2 powerfists, 1 powersword
5 Devs, 2 lascannon, 1 missile, 1 HB
3x Predator, autocannon, lascannon sponsons

AM Supreme Command
Company Commander [WARLORD]
2x Primaris Psykers

Hope to see you guys and girls there. Be sure to drop by the pink sisters and say hello.

As of two weeks ago I can't go. So I'll be at home drinking and watching the LVO twitch cheering you on and gently weeping into my Xiphon's battlefoam that just arrived in the mail monday... Keep the faith and make us proud.

 Inquisitor Lord Katherine wrote:

 Amishprn86 wrote:

 Inquisitor Lord Katherine wrote:
I don't have a vehicle for her. If I had a vehicle for her, I'd be making a 50 point waste of points into a 150+ point waste of points, so she's never getting near the enemy unless someone deepstrikes on her head or my army is already dead. And because I can't control what my opponent is deepstriking [and therefore I have no guarantee that my Canoness can kill it], I'd rather not leave the option open for them to do so at all. If my army is already dead, then it doesn't matter.

If I were to buy her a transport, I'd be investing at least another 100 points in getting her to buff the Dominions on turn two, which could be better spent on a squad of Rets or an Exorcist which can be receiving her buff, in effect on turn 1, and denying the dropzone.

Understandable, for me i'm am extremely aggressive Sob player, i dont like Ret HB's, i dont like Exorcist, etc.. So when i have 9 units in your deployment turn 1-2, she is better up there with them.

So am I. I think we all are, because every turn you're getting shelled by Imperial Guard artillery is a turn you're getting further away from winning.

I put 7 units [not counting an additional 5 Immolators] across the board on turn 1.

I don't think boxes of flagellants are any good. A Canoness, 8 flagellants, and a priest come up to about 300 points, which is just under twice the cost of an anti-infantry equipped unit of Dominions in an Immolator. Comparatively, the Dominions will be able to engage on turn 1 and be able to engage the target of their choice, while the close-quarters blob will either be engaging what's left or what the enemy is offering to them.

The arco-flagellants get more attacks at higher strength, but the Dominions get to chose the target for their attacks, and the guns on the Immolator also make up some of the difference.


The Arco box has validity since it can kill the Dominions out of combat when the enemy counter-charges them, but I'd rather rely on proactive charge denial from Seraphim and St.C or my tanks than rescuing my units once they've been attacked.




I don't think it's possible to completely drop the backfield units in an all-comers list. It's just too big of a vulnerability, and you still have to hold the objectives that are there.

My Arcos are doing amazing! IDK if i will play without them at this point (depends on the codex now i mean).

How did you do round 1, Panzer?

Finished 2-1. Lost game 3 by 3 points to Tau commander spam. I sold out for the turn one tabling and missed it by 5 fire warriors. Left me in an awkward position when his suits dropped.

Put up a solid win today against Genestealer Cult with a version of the Sisters/Scions list I posted last week. 11-1 in Spoils of War; the cards went very much my way, but ultimately I took his Purestrains off the table and he didn't have what it took to dislodge me from the objectives. Very fun, thematic game on a really nice board against a great opponent.

My list, lightly tweaked from the previous version:


My opponent had a really beautifully painted GSC army with 3x cultists with lascannons, a Leman Russ, 3x lascannon Sentinels, Magus, Primus, Patriarch, and 4x20 Purestrains. It was a mountain of bugs. I managed to work the deployment to my advantage, but he took first turn. The photo is after his ambush at the top of Turn 1. The wall of Genestealers ran itself at a wall of guns. The guns ultimately did the job, but only after multiple fronts collapsed. I pushed one flank of the ambush back with Vanguard Immolators and adequately hedged my backfield with Battle Sisters, but I should have pushed the center forward to do the same. He met both transports midfield and destroyed them T1. I took charges from 40 bugs on one flank and 20 on the other; the last 20 I gunned down in the open. A Heroic Intervention that resulted in a Morale phase wipeout by Celestine & Friends and a BoA Canoness in his T1 charge was a turning point. The Scions and the Seraphim met up on either side of the Patriarch and gunned him down. I was way up on points and he was down to his Sentinels and a fleeing Magus, so we called it after 4 turns.

Other takeaways: His Russ was a surprise threat and his Sentinels were no slouch. Volley guns are surprisingly good. A Penitent Engine wading through 2x10 cultists in 2 turns is fun to watch. Jury still out on the Scions elements... the Laurels were pretty solid, but the Aquila didn't earn me many CPs. Doctrine + Extra Orders + Plasma is a pretty killer combo, but send 4 units to deal with a Russ, not two.

Photo:

Good stuff, I love playing against GSC. Very thematic opponent for Sisters and they have some great mechanics that hopefully stand up better after they get a dex. Makes me wish I saw more Chaos Cultists armies, or that they had their own lists.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 MacPhail wrote:
How do y'all get your Canoness up the table to make good use of her BoA? The handful of times I've run Heavy Flamer Rets she rides in their Rhino. My new scheme is to run her behind footslogging Stormbolter Doms and maybe Advance T1 for a T2 charge. Also thinking about starting her close enough to a backline Imagifier to give her an extra move before the Imagifier then supports HB Rets for the rest of the game.

What else works to protect and deliver the relic blade?

I put her with an inferno pistol and four other eviscerator inferno pistol canonesses in their own Repressor and run them up behind my Dominions. Fun to see players faces when they get destroyed in hth with them.

I put her in a rhino with 7x Acros, 1x Priest, and 1x Diaglous.

 MacPhail wrote:
How do y'all get your Canoness up the table to make good use of her BoA? The handful of times I've run Heavy Flamer Rets she rides in their Rhino. My new scheme is to run her behind footslogging Stormbolter Doms and maybe Advance T1 for a T2 charge. Also thinking about starting her close enough to a backline Imagifier to give her an extra move before the Imagifier then supports HB Rets for the rest of the game.

What else works to protect and deliver the relic blade?

In case it wasn't obvious, I don't.

She just lives at the back and buffs Retributors and Exorcists. Sometimes, if I'm penned in, or my rear line's been shot to bits, she'll get to use it against deep strikers or to repel the enemy from the ramparts.

She's at the very least carrying some weight in this capacity, and it seems to be a fairly practical use for the sword. It at least deters deepstrikers, because she can mess them up and keep the rest of the force on target.

That's the good thing I think about the blade, more than any other of it's qualities: it's cheap. Because it's super cheap, it's not particularly detrimental to your force if its doesn't get used meaningfully in 4 of 5 games. In this vein, I'll sound like a broken record, but I think investing in transport/bodyguard/etc. for her is really detracting from the blade's best quality, by making it effectively really expensive and no longer a great upgrade.



If I did want to get her up the board, I'd probably have her walk too. Buying a transport for 1 model is a waste of points, and buying units to add to the transport so it's not just her staff car is throwing good money [points] after bad. She's not going to be too much slower walking, to be honest, and she's not in danger at any time, so there's no need for the protection of the transport.


I just realized days later that I replied to the same thing twice, probably because I use two computers. I feel stupid now.

This has been debated since the start of 8th but I want to revisit the question.

My experience is that the majority of my opponents run roughly 66% infantry and 33% vehicles. So I’ve reduced my melta / plasma (anti-tank overall) to about 25% of my points total (sometimes as low as 20%) and the rest on Stormbolter / Heavy Bolter equivalents. I find the weight of fire from my STR5 weapons can still do damage against tanks and leave my STR4 stuff for pure infantry work.

I know finding the right balance is a tricky proposition, what proportion of AT vs AI do you all use roughly?

 davidgr33n wrote:
This has been debated since the start of 8th but I want to revisit the question.

My experience is that the majority of my opponents run roughly 66% infantry and 33% vehicles. So I’ve reduced my melta / plasma (anti-tank overall) to about 25% of my points total (sometimes as low as 20%) and the rest on Stormbolter / Heavy Bolter equivalents. I find the weight of fire from my STR5 weapons can still do damage against tanks and leave my STR4 stuff for pure infantry work.

I know finding the right balance is a tricky proposition, what proportion of AT vs AI do you all use roughly?

I'm definitely ready to shift toward more AI over AT. I'm balking at the cost of another squad of HB Rets and a dozen or more extra Stormbolters. I also want to see what happens when GeeDubs has no more codices to release but ours, see if there's any scent of plastics on the wind when we get whatever passes for a codex, etc. I know that's fantasy thinking, but I'm pretty happy with the balance in my army right at this moment. Last game it was roughly 50/50, complicated by some plasma options that sit the fence. Call it rough thirds: 1/3 melta on Doms and Seraphim for tanks and monsters, 1/3 SB/HB for infantry and volume fire, and 1/3 plasma for heavy infantry, bikes, and shoring up the other applications.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Inquisitor Lord Katherine wrote:


That's the good thing I think about the blade, more than any other of it's qualities: it's cheap. Because it's super cheap, it's not particularly detrimental to your force if its doesn't get used meaningfully in 4 of 5 games. In this vein, I'll sound like a broken record, but I think investing in transport/bodyguard/etc. for her is really detracting from the blade's best quality, by making it effectively really expensive and no longer a great upgrade.

I need to take this to heart, it's a great point. A 4 point relic doesn't need to do anything. I'll still work on pushing her forward because I like when my speedbump units bite back, but it's a good reminder to not build elaborate strategies around it.