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I have the opportunity to attend a tourney (rarity for moi), and I am thinking of entering the demon world army I have been working on for some time. The list uses Nid rules. Carnifexxes are replaced by dragon ogres, genestealers by converted bloodletters, Hive Tyrant by a Belakor and Ravenors by Spawn

Would you have a problem as an opponent playing against these counts as? Sorry if this is the wrong forum


Hive Tyrant (CC, no ranged weapons) GW picture


Broodlord


Dakkafexxes (dragon ogres with russian pillboxes for Devourers)


Venom fexx (Helga the Carnie in all her glory)


Genestealers (wolfletters-still in rushed process)




I have spawn but they are in process.

Here's two images showing some scale

I could care less what I play against as long as it's a fun game

But at a tourney you might end up having some snooty opponents so maybe you should ask the organzier first what they think

That is my intent-I live out of city so can't do that yet.

I can't see your images because I'm at work, and our filters block all of the photo hosting sites.

I'll tell you this, though (sight unseen)... if the scale is right and the base is the right size, then there shouldn't be a problem.

Make it easier for yourself.

Take your army list, the one that you're supposed to have enough copies of to give one to each opponent (which most tourney goers -in my experience- "forget" to do) and list, specifically, what the models are and what they count as.

This way, your opponent won't have to keep asking you, "What are those bloodletters supposed to be again?"
He can just cross reference it on your list.

When you give him/her the list, be certain to point out that it's there, too... It might get you some sportsmanship points for being so thoughtful.

Good luck!

Eric

I don't know if this is a good idea or not, but you could also label their bases (even if it was at the back of the base, or underneath) just to be clear.

Anything that gets as many Dragon Ogre Shaggoths on the table as possible is a good thing in my book.

Tacobake wrote:I don't know if this is a good idea or not, but you could also label their bases (even if it was at the back of the base, or underneath) just to be clear.

Anything that gets as many Dragon Ogre Shaggoths on the table as possible is a good thing in my book.

I have two, they are so heavy in the event of fire I can just throw them through the wall and escape through the holes they make

Nothing says loving like a Shaggoth with a Predator tank sized reaper autocannon

Take your army list, the one that you're supposed to have enough copies of to give one to each opponent (which most tourney goers -in my experience- "forget" to do) and list, specifically, what the models are and what they count as.

Good idea. I may also print off a sheet with pics reflecting what is what for easy reference. ie this is the Carnifexx with venom cannons, similar to the first post.

I'm in the same boat as MM with not being able to see pics, but I'm also with him/her on striving to be totally clear and consistent, along with how helpful an illustrated list can be for your opponent. I make liberal use of the counts as rule myself - I have a skaven clan eshin list made entirely of nurglings, heavily converted ghouls, rat ogres, strigoi and loads of spikes - and will likely have to make my own list + pics for when I want to bring them tourny-side ...

Look forward to seeing the pics when I get off work

- Salvage

I think playing against them would be very confusing in a larger game, but if they were labeled clearly on the model then I wouldn't have a problem. That said, I can see why a tournament organizer might have a problem with it. I know there was a big issue at one store I played at when a kid showed up to a tournament with spray painted coke cans for drop pods and an unpainted army and won the tournament. I thought it sounded ok, but some people are more finicky than others.

Its a 2,000 point tournament. I'm going to include a word doc similar to the original post with picture and what that unit is, as well as the list itself in detail.

honestly... or are you trolling?
...
I've got to say that i think it's a very bad idea. and would be unfair on your opponent who was expecting to play against a 40k army... having unpainted models etc ruins the experience...

Why not just empty your piggy bank and say the pennys are gaunts and the tens are warriors and the piggy bank is the fex... same experience for your opponent...

my thoughts... Sorry.

Trolling?
er...no. I've worked on this army for more than six months at this point. Everything will have been a conversion when completed (aka every model in the list is a conversion from the original model). Having to rush to get a tournament size list finished but its a far cry from pennys for gaunts.

1. Everything will be painted and based.

2. It is a 40K list. A tyranid list. The genestealers are converted bloodletters-aka 40K demons. The shaggoths are admittedly WFB creatures, but converted with weapons. I'd use a 40K Bloodthirster for the Tyrant but frankly don't like certain aspects of that model.

I can understand if persons would have a problem wysiwyg, and my painting could scare pigs, but seriously, this is an extremely themed, fully painted and converted list, which would score all aces under the old comp system (6 troop units).

I can see using "counts as" for models that are unavailable, or are unreasonably expensive, but......

Since you have all these chaos demons, why not just use them as chaos?
Not that your actions affect me in any form, but it does seem kind of silly, to me at any rate, to create a whole army and then call it "Army X" when there are enough models out there to make an "accurate" Army X.

Do as you wish, but don't be surprised though, if your army is disqualified, or your opponents refuse to participate.

I'd have problems playing against this. It's not so much the concept, as the execution. I'm sure you've got a good story and all, but you have to make the models look a lot better than that in order to get the sort of reaction you want when doing a counts-as army.

It seems like you have a decent idea going here. Everything is to scale and everything is consistant. I would recommend that you bring along an army list to hand out that constains pictures of each unit so that your opponent will have a refrence and can't accuse you of doing anything funny.

Am definitely doing that Phoenix. Its an excellent idea and have a draft word doc already done. I thought about including a short paragraph of fluff for each but figured that might be a problem in the actual game.

Honestly I'm not too keen on "Counts as" for an entire army unless it screams "amazing paint job" or "amazing conversion-work".
Otherwise I'm staring at an army that someone was too poor to buy another army for.

Keep it as a "demon" army. Make a Nid army.

Boss_Salvage wrote:I'm in the same boat as MM with not being able to see pics, but I'm also with him/her...
<SNIP>
- Salvage

Dang, Boss!

Where I come from, Eric is a "him" name.

Don't make me post a link to some special images, like on bartertown...


Anyway, back on Topic...

I think the idea of putting images next to the unit description is GENIUS.

As far as them not being painted... Eh... Personally, I like my army to be painted, and I like to be able to tell my opponent's units apart by their paint job... in a "friendly" game, I wouldn't care too much if they were unpainted, unlike "Panic."


Also, @ Laserbait... because he doesn't want to play chaos. He wants to play an army with a certain LOOK and FEEL, and the Tyranid list best fits what he's thinking.


Of course, everyone has their own opinions, and I don't want to take that right away from anyone.

jfrazell... Count me as a supporter.

Eric

First: Kudos on the creativity. I really like the ideas you've come up with here.

Second: Yes, I'd totally play against that. You're using existing rules to make a rather unique-looking army, and I almost get the old feeling of "zoats" with the dragon ogres and shaggoth models. I'm also not a world-class painter, so don't let the critics get you down. The Word document fully explaining everything is also the right move, and I'm sure you won't be trying to fool your opponents with what is what.

Good luck in the tournament!

OKay... I can see the images now.
Very interesting.
Looks like you already HAD the models and decided you wanted to "reuse" them.
That's fine. No prob.
I stand by my earlier statements.

I do see one potential problem... On your "wolfletters..." What are their bodies from? I don't recognize them but, if they're not GW, they wouldn't be allowed at a tourney.


Eric

MagickalMemories wrote:
I do see one potential problem... On your "wolfletters..." What are their bodies from? I don't recognize them but, if they're not GW, they wouldn't be allowed at a tourney.

Eric

@ MM - I soooo didn't see you stick your name at the bottom, so 1000 pardons. And here I was trying to cover my bases and genders

@ Wolfletters - The bodies look like gors to me, def GeeDub

@ Jf - Models look fine to me, really only some of the bases make me sad, particularly the fantasy stuff on squares stacked on circles. More a personal thing maybe, and I don't have a thing for gorgeous bases, just some flock and such ftw. Painted on base detial - with no flock - isn't my thing, but le shrug. I will note how sexy a lot of this would get with some dip action

And to the haters, you'd really cross your arms, harumph and walk away from the table vs a counts as demon world army, all painted and all converted? Personally the only thing I don't like the smell of here is the zilla-esque nature of it! gets my goat waaaaaay more than creativity or sticking to a budget

- Salvage

Boss_Salvage wrote:
And to the haters, you'd really cross your arms, harumph and walk away from the table vs a counts as demon world army, all painted and all converted? Personally the only thing I don't like the smell of here is the zilla-esque nature of it! gets my goat waaaaaay more than creativity or sticking to a budget
- Salvage

God forbid imagination would be required to play a game like this....

I'd totally play against this army. I don't usually go to tournaments but I wouldn't have a problem with it if it showed up there and I've played friendlies against far more confusing "counts as" armies.

Some people have mentioned putting a little sign on the bases- I'd be careful of this. I have known people who have tried to play with notes scotch-taped to their minis to show what they were armed with because they haven't glued the weapons on yet. It looks tacky and it doesn't help distinguish them clearly. I like the idea of the picture armylist, if you wanted to go one step further I'd color-code a bit or an icon or a skull or a decal that goes on the bases. All the dakkafexes get say, a blue thing on their bases. All the genestealers get a yellow thing on their bases. Just a little code to help keep things clearer.

Good luck!

MagickalMemories wrote:OKay... I can see the images now.
Very interesting.
Looks like you already HAD the models and decided you wanted to "reuse" them.
That's fine. No prob.
I stand by my earlier statements.

I do see one potential problem... On your "wolfletters..." What are their bodies from? I don't recognize them but, if they're not GW, they wouldn't be allowed at a tourney.


Eric

I had two squads originally for my LATD force. I wanted to expand on it, especially with the new codex impacting LATD. Its likely my last project, with the goal of having every mini on the board converted.

The original squad bodies were bloodletters (single axe guys). However, cutting the heads off those buggers and replacing them with Dire Wolf heads took MAXIMUM effort. I discovered that beastmen ungor (or the bigger beastmen in the box anyway) are nearly identical but plastic and pose-able. Problem solved. Oringinally I was also going to do about 40 gaunts via gor with small crystal weapons, but thats unlikely at this point.

Bases. The bases on the old dakafexxes have their old bases (acquired on ebay). The top part is attempting to show a summoning point, with symbols all around. They go quite well with the Tyrant (not show as he had an accident and is in "hospital"). The bases are a truly evolving concept still with the original idea that all the stealers would be standing on Khorne symbols, but that became too difficult. The big fexxes had the same idea originally, but in putting together the clay it formed cracks which gave me the idea for a lava/blood field. I'll freely admit having square and round bases are annoying, but this is still an in process project, and at the end of the day everything should have the same style bases.

Thank you for the comments.

As it is I don't see a tournament allowing it. I think there is a good idea there, but you need to do more to flesh it out. As it stands it just looks like you are to cheap to put together a Tyranid army. You might check the T.W.A.R. blog to get an idea of making non-tyranid tyranids. He's doing mechs, but it's just for inspiration.

I wish it was as cheap as a Tyranid army (referencing Voodoo's post on a cheap plastic nid list). A $35 box of beastmen to get 12 "genestealers" + $4 per head, yerghh


Good thing the wifey is not familiar with actual costs for my toys or it might be bad day at black rock for yours truly

jfrazell wrote:

Tacobake wrote:I don't know if this is a good idea or not, but you could also label their bases (even if it was at the back of the base, or underneath) just to be clear.

Anything that gets as many Dragon Ogre Shaggoths on the table as possible is a good thing in my book.

I have two, they are so heavy in the event of fire I can just throw them through the wall and escape through the holes they make

Nothing says loving like a Shaggoth with a Predator tank sized reaper autocannon )

It's a sweet model, it's so good it's almost too good for GW, especially considering it's age.

jfrazell wrote:Good thing the wifey is not familiar with actual costs for my toys or it might be bad day at black rock for yours truly

Amen, brother.

It's amazing how many things I "trade" for on Bartertown! LOL


Eric

I can't really see a serious Tourney organizer buying off on this counts-as army. It is way to confusing for opponents who will be handicapped just trying to remember what everything is- especially at 2000 pts. But you never know- maybe they will go for it....

For a fun game or a game to try out a list, no problem whatsoever. But for a serious Tourney... I know I would be spending half my turn trying to remember what is what and not on tactics. If more things looked a bit closer to the real GW models they are supposed to represent (and some of yours actually do) then it would be okay. But there are too many that just look nothing like what they are supposed to represent IMHO.

I'd play the game, but I could certainly see somebody taking issue with it, and wouldn't entirely blame them.

There are a few issues I can see...

One is obvious: You know exactly what every model is, but your opponent has to think a little bit extra to keep things straight. It might not be a big deal, but it's one more thing for them to keep track of, and it gives you a small advantage. Considering that you're gaining an advantage because they're willing to give you a break, that wouldn't sit will with some people.

Another: Along the same lines, but you're not even doing the same models entirely the same. An old school Shaggoth with pepperboxes, and a new style one with some sort of polearm... Not only is your opponent forced to remember that Shaggoths are Dakkafexes, he has to know the modelling history of GW Shaggoths.

Another: Your models aren't just "counts as" they're also not really WYSIWYG at all. For example, a Dakkafex has 4 Devourers. Your models have 2 pepperboxes on one, then a big polearm looking thing on the other. It'd be one thing if you did a pair of models off of Shaggoths that had two sets of multi-shooty looking weapons. That'd still be tough, but at least it'd point to the whole "two pairs of shooty."

Another: The size of the models, their profile, is important. If it's easier to hide your models, that might frustrate some players. Not having the same base size would probably be illegal, but even if you have the correct base size, people might not appreciate it if your models were somehow easier to hide.

I'm not sure exactly what your list is, but if you're going to play a tough Godzilla + Stealer list, people are going to be double unwilling to play along. It's one thing to play a funny or well painted "counts as" list, and beat the hell out of it. It's another to play a "counts as" list and have it hammer you with one of the more broken builds in the game.

So, as I said, I'd play against you and not complain, but I try to be a nice guy, and go above and beyond to help other players have fun. Even if I'd play you, my advice would be to absolutely not play this army as you're describing. It's just not that polite to make your first interaction with your opponent be a request for a pretty big favor.

Actually, I'd say he's pretty consistant across the board with his models, from what he's shown already.

The dakkafex's are clearly regular dragon ogres, and they do appear to be on big bases (square monsterbases on top of a 60mm round base) while the gun fex's are shaggoths. With a better side picture, it would be pretty easy to tell the difference between the dragon ogre and the shaggoth.

As for the small argument, its no different than someone building a baby dakka fex for their elite carni's, something that has been discussed before on dakka and has received favorable comments.

More than anything what is going to hurt you is the fact that your paint jobs don't really do the army justice, and your white bases with paint on them make it even harder to tell what is going on.

The easiest fix would be do just base the models normally, with sand and flock, and call it done.

I wouldn't have a problem.