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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2007/12/14 03:03:51
Subject: State of the metagame?
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Inexperienced VF-1A Valkyrie Brownie
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What is the current state of the metagame end of 2007?
As I perceive it, the top armies are
The A list
Mech Eldar and Shooty Godzillas
The B list
Twin Lash Chaos, AC and Pod Marines and Mech Tau
The C list Almost everything else but...
The D list
Sisters, Dark Eldar
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2007/12/14 09:49:30
Subject: Re:State of the metagame?
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Executing Exarch
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DE don't belong in the bottom spot. Also, where is stealer shock?
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Wehrkind wrote:Sounds like a lot, but with a little practice I can do ~7-8 girls in 2-3 hours. Probably less if the cat and wife didn't want attention in that time. |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2007/12/14 10:07:45
Subject: Re:State of the metagame?
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Longtime Dakkanaut
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Given it's almost impossible to lose against nidzilla with well-designed Tau or Eldar lists, you can hardly put it in the top tier of armies.
Stealer shock? By this can I assume you mean all stealers with a broodlord and winged tyrant? That's what you take down the local club for some fun.
Given twin-lash chaos won Heat 2, I think you can safely put that into the top tier grouping.
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Hodge-Podge says: Run with the Devil, Shout Satan's Might. Deathtongue! Deathtongue! The Beast arises tonight!
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2007/12/14 10:19:34
Subject: Re:State of the metagame?
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Fixture of Dakka
.................................... Searching for Iscandar
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torgoch wrote:Given twin-lash chaos won Heat 2, I think you can safely put that into the top tier grouping.
Not really. The army list in question was laughable.
Not sure why Dark Eldar are in the bottom tier.
Where's the upcoming Ork horde?
Sisters aren't great all-rounders, but there are alot of tricks you can run with them.
I suspect once more players get familiarity with the 'top tier' (which for some funny reason, is always the last set of Codex creepers) they'll not be as 'top tier' as they currently appear to be.
Currently I'd say the standard Smurf codex is the best army, and will be until it's replaced by SmurfNerf.
AC should be somewhere in the realm of Sisters. Too weak to every army but...Sisters. lol
Oh, and there is no metagame in 40k.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2007/12/14 10:42:13
Subject: Re:State of the metagame?
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Longtime Dakkanaut
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Stelek wrote:
Currently I'd say the standard Smurf codex is the best army
I think I just saw your credibility plummeting pass my window...
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This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2007/12/14 11:00:20
Hodge-Podge says: Run with the Devil, Shout Satan's Might. Deathtongue! Deathtongue! The Beast arises tonight!
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2007/12/14 11:09:04
Subject: State of the metagame?
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Fixture of Dakka
.................................... Searching for Iscandar
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Here we go again.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2007/12/14 12:19:44
Subject: Re:State of the metagame?
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Ancient Chaos Terminator
South Pasadena
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I can't think of a single event in the 2007 US GT circuit that marines won.
Darrian
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2007/12/14 12:21:24
Subject: Re:State of the metagame?
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Ancient Chaos Terminator
South Pasadena
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@Torgoch, If the current year is 2007, how have you already placed 3rd in the 2008 GT circuit? Do you have a time machine?
Darrian
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2007/12/14 12:22:55
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2007/12/14 12:47:33
Subject: Re:State of the metagame?
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Longtime Dakkanaut
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The GT has three Heats and a Final, running from October to March. The first is my heat position, the second my final position.
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2007/12/14 12:50:00
Hodge-Podge says: Run with the Devil, Shout Satan's Might. Deathtongue! Deathtongue! The Beast arises tonight!
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2007/12/14 14:22:12
Subject: Re:State of the metagame?
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Inexperienced VF-1A Valkyrie Brownie
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tegeus-Cromis wrote:DE don't belong in the bottom spot. Also, where is stealer shock?
As I said, it's my perception, I was wondering what other people saw.
I'm not familar with stealer shock, so I didn't include it.
Where would you place Dark Eldar? Maybe I'm not giving it enough respect, but it's an old army with few workable tricks which can bbe shut down by people who have seen the tricks before.
To Stelek:
The top tier are armies which seem to be consistantly the best. The Eldar list isn't new at this point so I think it's current position is going to stay for a long time.
Ork horde is not released, so It's not on at the moment. Unlike some others I don't have a copy (putting me in a firm minority I'm sure) therefore I'm not about to include it.
There is always a metagame in any tournament environment due to the rock>paper>Scissors effect.
I love sisters, but they are one of the weakest armies in the game by my perception. Just about any army with an equal level player will beat the sisters. Basically Sisters<Any other army. You play them for a challlenge, not for thier strength.  If you disagree with thier placement in the bottom tier, tell me what is worse than them.
AC marines are less worthwhile then smurfs (ignoring the ability to make AC marines out of a smurf list)  Right.
To Torgoch:
I'm still kinda reserving judgement on twin lash, I think it's strong, but I haven't seen it enough yet to know for sure. A single placing makes me think it's good, but you could be good enough to turn straw into gold for all I know  . Nidzilla though has placed top a number of times in recent years IRC and none of this years codexes threaten it, so I left it in tier one.
>
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2007/12/14 17:03:33
Subject: State of the metagame?
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Fixture of Dakka
.................................... Searching for Iscandar
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I think the Lash is too much of a gimmick. What happens when you run into a mechanized list? You lose.
I don't agree with you about the metagame, since you cannot know what others are bringing nor what you will play. It's a rare day when I am 'surprised' at anyone's list, or their generalship...but making one army to beat another that might show up isn't really metagaming. It's playing rock/paper/scissors. :p
About Sisters, I dunno. I ran a horde list for a long time and did very well with it. At some point, I'll redo my Sisters. Probably in 2015 when the Ordo Delayed Codex is released by Hasbro.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2007/12/14 17:17:14
Subject: Re:State of the metagame?
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Longtime Dakkanaut
Brotherhood of Blood
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Mech Tau are so very close to A IMO. Eldar and Bugs definatley. DE are no less than B and in the right hands close to A. Marines and Chaos trends/dumb down may really start to struggle in the coming year IMO.
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2007/12/14 17:18:09
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2007/12/14 17:29:27
Subject: Re:State of the metagame?
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Longtime Dakkanaut
Brotherhood of Blood
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--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Stelek wrote:
Currently I'd say the standard Smurf codex is the best army
I think I just saw your credibility plummeting pass my window...
I don't know about the best but didn't ultramarines place a 2nd and 3rd in seperate GT's this last season.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2007/12/14 17:53:55
Subject: State of the metagame?
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Fixture of Dakka
.................................... Searching for Iscandar
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Ultramarines...papa smurfs? Let's see.
Marines 3rd overall in Baltimore, 3 of the top 10 slots went to marines there.
Chicago, 1 marine in the top 10.
Marines took 2nd place at LV, and two spots in the top 10.
Now, the fact that it's Rick S that took the top slots with his Ultramarines at all 3 GT's says something too...
Personally I think marines are considered an 'old' army and you usually just see battleforce smurfs now with very low use of traits.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2007/12/14 17:58:07
Subject: Re:State of the metagame?
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Regular Dakkanaut
Flower Mound Texas
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Something that you have to remember when using GT rankings is the number of people playing an army.
Marines are the most played army so it makes sense to see more high ranking marine players. Not saying marines aren't good (I still think they are top tier) but there will be some noise just looking at rankings.
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All out of witty one-liners. |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2007/12/14 18:04:06
Subject: Re:State of the metagame?
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Crazed Zealot
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efarrer wrote:I love sisters, but they are one of the weakest armies in the game by my perception. Just about any army with an equal level player will beat the sisters. Basically Sisters<Any other army. You play them for a challlenge, not for thier strength.  If you disagree with thier placement in the bottom tier, tell me what is worse than them.
Grey Knights!
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2007/12/14 18:12:51
Subject: Re:State of the metagame?
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Fixture of Dakka
.................................... Searching for Iscandar
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gdurant wrote:Something that you have to remember when using GT rankings is the number of people playing an army.
To what end? What statistic/probability are you referring to? Odds of a marine army getting into top 10 if 25% of the armies in a 80 person field, is that it?
gdurant wrote:Marines are the most played army so it makes sense to see more high ranking marine players. Not saying marines aren't good (I still think they are top tier) but there will be some noise just looking at rankings.
Oh I don't know about most played. Add in evil marines, and maybe they are. I guess I should do some research!
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2007/12/14 18:52:16
Subject: State of the metagame?
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Fixture of Dakka
.................................... Searching for Iscandar
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47 Smurf army lists out of 439 armies for 2007.
Not overwhelming numbers.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2007/12/14 20:12:01
Subject: State of the metagame?
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Regular Dakkanaut
Flower Mound Texas
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Stelek wrote:47 Smurf army lists out of 439 armies for 2007.
Not overwhelming numbers.
fair enough, I can't argue with that.
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All out of witty one-liners. |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2007/12/14 21:40:20
Subject: Re:State of the metagame?
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Longtime Dakkanaut
Brotherhood of Blood
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Something that you have to remember when using GT rankings is the number of people playing an army.
I personally just look at the top placers regardless.
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2007/12/14 21:40:39
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2007/12/14 21:53:27
Subject: State of the metagame?
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Inexperienced VF-1A Valkyrie Brownie
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Stelek wrote:47 Smurf army lists out of 439 armies for 2007.
Not overwhelming numbers.
Not exactly underwhelming. How many armies are there in 40K?
Just taking a look at the top of the Hard Boyz tourney in the states marines represented 11 of 52 slots still (21%) Note that this figure jumps to 22 of 52 slots if you include Chaos and non codex marines (42%).
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2007/12/14 22:01:50
Subject: Re:State of the metagame?
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Inexperienced VF-1A Valkyrie Brownie
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Lemartes wrote:Something that you have to remember when using GT rankings is the number of people playing an army.
I personally just look at the top placers regardless.
I agree, the top of the field tells you what works. The bottom 1/3 can be written off as mostly meaningless, but I'd say the top 20 are worth looking at, in a large tournament.
I used to play the L5R ccg and it was worth seeing the top of the field to know which clans were top teir for the same reason, and like that most of the true top tier armies emerge by the time you are at the top 20. You'll get a couple of brilliant players who can make anything work in the top 5 and then the strong trends emerge the rest of the way through the top 20. Generally if you can kill the most common or best known varients of these you should be okish. Keep in mind a bad player will lose with the best army to a good player with the worst.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2007/12/15 00:35:13
Subject: Re:State of the metagame?
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Longtime Dakkanaut
Brotherhood of Blood
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Just taking a look at the top of the Hard Boyz tourney in the states marines represented 11 of 52 slots still (21%) Note that this figure jumps to 22 of 52 slots if you include Chaos and non codex marines (42%).
"Ardboys is a completely different category. Apples/oranges and all that because of such a high points limit various builds can maximize thier efficiency. Marines, (Assault cannon spam) Necrons, and IG can really take builds they never could before. I think MC, Tau, and mech Eldar diminish a little 3 Falcon/Railheads are still 3 and have filled thier allotment in HS and at lower points limits. The same with 8 MC being at capacity already. Marines being the dominant selection for 'Ardboys also makes sense because everyone has extra marines floating around but not as much with other armies.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2007/12/15 06:30:41
Subject: State of the metagame?
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Regular Dakkanaut
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You can't just ask "Huh, what's the bestest army out ther?" without letting us know what pointcap you are thinking of.
Lemartes puts it right. For the 1500-1850 point range Eldar might be the army to beat. But they are easy harvest to Necrons in higher point games...plus the game gets overall more balanced, as you can't stick with onetrickponyriding while Necrons can max out their stuff. (Maybe I'd pull those 'Crons from under my bed when tourney point limit is increased...)
Sadly the army of my choice isn't the best one. I love the Inquisition fluff and the SoB minis, but they can't max out like Eldar or 'Nids can. Still I wouldn't but them in bottom tier. They and DE should go up one, if not two steps - both got some decent matchups and it comes down to what army you are tied to. (With Orks Sisters probably gets even better...those hordes don't like a lot of flaming stuff and Exorzist are pretty good against anything else in the 'dex.)
The bottom line should be represented by the Grey Knights. They suck. Hard.
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On the topic 'Wich bases are supplied with my Terminators and how could I abuse it'...after turning into a debate on english language and the meaning of the word 'supply'.
tegeus-Cromis wrote:Everything that comes in the box is "accompanying" everything else that comes in the box. When you buy a Happy Meal from McD's, no one expects you to dunk the toy in the sauce, but it doesn't mean the toy wasn't "supplied with" it. |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2007/12/15 07:32:32
Subject: State of the metagame?
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Fixture of Dakka
.................................... Searching for Iscandar
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Actually I'd say the pure carnival army the sisters can field is the worst. You know, all the crap Andy Hoare added to the list instead of more Sisters.
Inquisitorial crap FTL. :(
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2007/12/15 09:48:52
Subject: Re:State of the metagame?
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Regular Dakkanaut
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The Canoness, Phim, assassins and the Exorcists are pretty awsome.
And fielding the army is a lot of fun.
But the inquisitorial part of the codex...other than the assassins? No thank you.
The problem is Sisters scale with their matchups. And they are pretty bad against mech-Eldar.
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On the topic 'Wich bases are supplied with my Terminators and how could I abuse it'...after turning into a debate on english language and the meaning of the word 'supply'.
tegeus-Cromis wrote:Everything that comes in the box is "accompanying" everything else that comes in the box. When you buy a Happy Meal from McD's, no one expects you to dunk the toy in the sauce, but it doesn't mean the toy wasn't "supplied with" it. |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2007/12/15 13:11:00
Subject: Re:State of the metagame?
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Rampaging Furioso Blood Angel Dreadnought
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I LOVE my sisters, it's always been a fun army to play. Hard to get a win against a proper mobile army, but I've eaten up some hordes. Sigh. Not sure what "Phim" is but then I haven't had a chance to play with the "holy trinity" for quite some time. "Carnival", either. Yeah, I been out a while. Care to enlighten me?
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2007/12/15 13:35:50
Subject: Re:State of the metagame?
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Executing Exarch
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"Phim" are Seraphim. "Carnival" isn't a standard term, but I gather Stelek's referring to the menagerie-effect you get when a WH army contains all kinds of offbeat units like Arcos etc.
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2007/12/15 13:36:13
Wehrkind wrote:Sounds like a lot, but with a little practice I can do ~7-8 girls in 2-3 hours. Probably less if the cat and wife didn't want attention in that time. |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2007/12/15 14:17:43
Subject: Re:State of the metagame?
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Rampaging Furioso Blood Angel Dreadnought
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thanks, appreciate it. I'll start looking for a good location for my "Village Idiot" tatoo.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2007/12/15 14:21:23
Subject: Re:State of the metagame?
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Bounding Assault Marine
Long Island, New York
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For the number of DE players that scored 80+ (or its equivalent) in battle points compared to the number of DE players in the 2007 GT's, the DE should be considered top tier. I don't know why more people don't play that army. Maybe it is too difficult to paint or something.
What about necron destroyer lists? At least B range, IMO.
I remember when the ork speed freaks were the top dog in tourney play, but that was a whole edition ago. Don't call the new orks a comeback!
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War is not your recreation. It is the reason for your existence. Prepare for it well. ~CODEX ASTARTES
Give me a hundred Space Marines. Or failing that, give me a thousand other troops. ~Rogal Dorn |
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