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tegeus-Cromis wrote:"Phim" are Seraphim. "Carnival" isn't a standard term, but I gather Stelek's referring to the menagerie-effect you get when a WH army contains all kinds of offbeat units like Arcos etc.

For Sisters players, Carnival is indeed 'standard'. Most of us hate that part of the list.

It's why I sold my Sisters.

Arcos, Stormtroops, Penitents, utter crap. WTB more Sisters sculpts, less butch Canoness' please.

dornsfist wrote:For the number of DE players that scored 80+ (or its equivalent) in battle points compared to the number of DE players in the 2007 GT's, the DE should be considered top tier. I don't know why more people don't play that army. Maybe it is too difficult to paint or something.
What about necron destroyer lists? At least B range, IMO.
I remember when the ork speed freaks were the top dog in tourney play, but that was a whole edition ago. Don't call the new orks a comeback!

DE are relatively expensive. And a pain to build. And a pain to paint. And a pain to transport.

Necron destroyer lists are easy to beat, sadly. Immortal lists, on the other hand, can be a real PITA.

Not too sure why the presence of units you don't have to use (and why would you when they're all, let's be frank, rubbish on the battlefield?) in the codex would cause you to sell your Sisters, but I know what you mean.

Stelek wrote:

dornsfist wrote:For the number of DE players that scored 80+ (or its equivalent) in battle points compared to the number of DE players in the 2007 GT's, the DE should be considered top tier. I don't know why more people don't play that army. Maybe it is too difficult to paint or something.
What about necron destroyer lists? At least B range, IMO.
I remember when the ork speed freaks were the top dog in tourney play, but that was a whole edition ago. Don't call the new orks a comeback!

DE are relatively expensive. And a pain to build. And a pain to paint. And a pain to transport.

Don't forget the general poor sculpt quality, and the slightly dull nature of the list. DE Troop, Fast Attack, and Heavy Support sections may as well contain one entry each.

Necrons are clearly A above 2000 points. But they fall, as soon as you drop the pointlimit.

DE are ugly btw, did you ever look at those models? Ok...the Wyches are nice, so are the Raiders/Wyvern.
But those Lords and Warriors make my eyes bleed.
And their Codex is a bit out of date and not the easiest one to use, so no new players start them.

For the number of DE players that scored 80+ (or its equivalent) in battle points compared to the number of DE players in the 2007 GT's, the DE should be considered top tier. I don't know why more people don't play that army. Maybe it is too difficult to paint or something.

I second or third the ugliest, transport, and assemble part. Just gluing those spiked out buggers together poses serious health risks to oneself. If you do a raider airforce you need to make multiple trips to your car to carry in the boxes you have them in.

#1. I think that the Necons are a very strong army, but at low points it is a juggling act between the fancy stuff and Necrons. To many times I have played against them with Monoliths, C'tan and Destroyers, and very few Necrons to protect from Phase out. But at the higher points they get the toys and can take enough Necrons to keep them from phasing out.

#2. Dark Eldar are a top army, but since they took them off of the shelf no one has started them, so they are a dying codex.

#3. To get a good understanding of the top tier armies, you have to look at battle points. The ones that can score 80+ in the USGTs are the ones at the top (Only for Las Vegas and Chicago though, because they had a weird scoring system in Baltimore). You see Rick at the top with his Ultramarines, but it was mostly his paint score, not the play of that army.

#4. If you do that, you will see that Eldar, Tyranids and Chaos (Old Codex) did the best by far.

tegeus-Cromis wrote:Not too sure why the presence of units you don't have to use (and why would you when they're all, let's be frank, rubbish on the battlefield?) in the codex would cause you to sell your Sisters, but I know what you mean.

Sisters in the CA book were [as a pure army] much better than Codex: Carnival [pure Sisters force].

I was pretty pissed about the whole thing, and sent them out. Then paypal tried to stiff me on my money, so...never gonna sell an army across the net again.

Blackmoor wrote:#4. If you do that, you will see that Eldar, Tyranids and Chaos (Old Codex) did the best by far.

I don't know about that. I'm going to do some research on battle points for armies at Chicago and Las Vegas.

FYI, it's my opinion that all the Eldar armies (including my own) were not very competitive at Las Vegas.

I've since corrected my list having only played it at the LV GT. More later.

Edit: Ok counting top 25 battle points at Chicago and Las Vegas (discounting Baltimore because scoring was slowed).

Las Vegas:

Eldar-7
Marines-5
Chaos-3
Tau-1
Necrons-1
Tyranids-1
Orks-1
Sisters-1
Imperial Guard-2
Dark Eldar-2

Chicago:

Tyranids -7
Chaos-6
Marines- 3
Necrons- 1
Tau-2
Eldar-5

I don't see any clear patterns. Older Codexes not used as much as newer ones. Eldar are the newest, highly represented...nothing new in that.

*shrug*

I don't honestly thing Gt standings reflect the power of lists. Most lists played in tourneys are sub-optimal at least from what I have seen.

You'd need a tourney where everyone played the optimal version of their list to make it accurate.

My personal opinion is:
Top tier:
Mechanized Eldar, Necrons, Tyranids, C:SM

I'd say no particular order there except in my experience, Nidzilla beats more of the top tier lists than the other top tiers do. It spanks almost all C:SM builds, Necrons have a helluva time with it, and Mecha Eldar has no picnic.


Middle tier:
Tau, IG, New Orks, Dark Eldar

Reasoning here is: Tau does not beat Necrons or Godzilla (despite what Torg thinks, Godzilla is a very very hard army for Tau), but it is a tough matchup for Eldar and C:SM. Dark Eldar is a tough matchup for C:SM and Tyranids, but not so much against Eldar, and at best 50/50 against Crons.

New Orks look like they will beat Eldar pretty handily and Godzilla, but not so much against C:SM and Necrons.

IG can simply beat anyone any given Sunday. It's not that they are going to take home massacres, but any list can lose to the better IG armies given a one of several conditions (deepstrike available for drop troops, no escalation for mechanized, et cetera).

Bottom Tier:
Everyone else.

Most of the other lists in 40k are simply not capable of beating the top or even most of the middle tier lists without exceptional circumstances (poor players, ridiculous table, broken mission, etc).

That's just my opinion and I don't play a lot anymore, so it could be outdated, but I think it's a pretty accurate assessment of raw codex power.
Most of the rest of t

Tau are inferior to Eldar.

S5 instead of S6 on the mobility weapons, and no extra armor on vehicles.

New Orks won't beat Eldar. Orks are slow and no save.
Even fast Orks can be neutralized. Everyone is all a ga-ga about grabbers. It's a gimmick, and not hard to avoid.

IG are very powerful, as are Space marines. You can customize (just like Tyranids can). Eldar and Tau have inherently powerful/good units (Falcons, Jetbikes/Crisis Suits, Hammerheads) but lack flexibility.

Or as Jervis calls it, 'complexity'. Wish his son was smarter, really. Making my favorite game quite dull with these cookie cutter lists. What makes my DA different? My paintjob. Sigh. Thought those days were behind us.

Anyway, I'd like to point out that my friend John is an excellent player and scored only 7 points below me in battle points with Sisters of Battle. He was in the top 25, something I don't think I've seen any Sisters player do barring myself years and years ago with my CA: 2002 list. Grats to his dumb army and his excellent generalship. Now go hide in the corner, Nidzillas' comin!

Why is everyone saying that orks are going to rock ot world?
Foot hordes are too slow to do much damage. And if they do reach there strength 3 let the nob do all the work attacks aren't that bad.
if the take trucks, you can take those out with bolter fire.
the most solid part of there list is the leman russ equivs. Just in a maximised envirment I don't see orks doing too much harm.

Shooty Orks like I plan on running will be in my view dangerous despite the BS2.

Played against a proxied up new ork army a few weeks back. He was trying his new codex, I was experimenting with the new BA. The firepower involved with the army he brought was downright scary. Thank GOD they were only BS 2. He beat me pretty fair. gdurant is right, slo hordes are bad. However, a slow horde with ranged weapons en masse and writ large is another animal altogether. Anyway, he seemed happy with the list, for a change. THat was good to see since his beloved feral orcs got the ax.

Stelek wrote:Tau are inferior to Eldar.

S5 instead of S6 on the mobility weapons, and no extra armor on vehicles.

New Orks won't beat Eldar. Orks are slow and no save.
Even fast Orks can be neutralized. Everyone is all a ga-ga about grabbers. It's a gimmick, and not hard to avoid.

IG are very powerful, as are Space marines. You can customize (just like Tyranids can). Eldar and Tau have inherently powerful/good units (Falcons, Jetbikes/Crisis Suits, Hammerheads) but lack flexibility.

Or as Jervis calls it, 'complexity'. Wish his son was smarter, really. Making my favorite game quite dull with these cookie cutter lists. What makes my DA different? My paintjob. Sigh. Thought those days were behind us.

Anyway, I'd like to point out that my friend John is an excellent player and scored only 7 points below me in battle points with Sisters of Battle. He was in the top 25, something I don't think I've seen any Sisters player do barring myself years and years ago with my CA: 2002 list. Grats to his dumb army and his excellent generalship. Now go hide in the corner, Nidzillas' comin!

Im sorry I think your wayyy off on the orks not beating eldar. I have played 4 trial games against eldar, 2 against clones of GT finalists, and womped them badly. My list is:

Ork warboss on bike

Big Mek with KFF

2x 22 strong units of shoota boys, nob, p klaw

2x trukk boy units, sluggas and choppas, nob. p klaw, bosspole

15x stormboyz including zagstuck

2x 15 strong units of lootas

4x deff koptas

2x grot lobbas

Since they have no way to remove the mekboy, the lootas always have a 5+ cover save, and can take advantage of the best firing lanes on the board, even if not in cover. 15x stormboyz, 2 full trukk boy units, and a warboss on a bike are extremely deadly, and have the potential to win the game for you by themselves vs tau or other weak cc armies. My lootas can reliably shake 2 falcons a turn, if not outright destroy. 30 shots average, 10 hits average, 3 glances average. 3 glancing hits on any vehicle av 13 or under is nothing to scoff at. And as for their "dedicated" close combat support, well I easily trump an avatar, wraithlord, and a bunch of harlies not even killing there value in points. Until you have seen an optamized new ork list, you should hold your reservations. The only loss I have suffered since trying the new codex is against a SM army with 3 whirlwinds laying mines, but I seriously doubt many marines are going to give up 3 heavy support choices in a tourney environment on the chance they fight orks.

I've been playtesting Orks for what, 8 months? I've seen alot of configs.

My Gunzilla list trumps this list of yours (most Ork lists btw).

My current Eldar do not rely on the strategy others use. You have a relatively small Ork army. Moving in and assaulting your storm boys/truck boys then your regular boyz...isn't difficult to do with my Eldar army. Yes, I really can take down lots and lots of Orks. Having a 5+ cover save doesn't mean a whole lot with small Ork units--trust me. 30 orks or no orks! I say.

Please note I don't run an avatar, wraithlords, or harlies...and I have a Fire Prism for fun mass killing of cheap troops.

Also, my current planned Ork army would slice yours to kibibble as would my HB Smurfs and Tau would really depend on stopping the rear assault. The version of my Tau I plan on going to at some point would essentially be immune to the rear assault, but that's probably a year away. Wife says I can't buy 2 grand worth of models on a whim. Can't see the problem, really....

Orks will be top tier, Eldar will go down a bit and Nidzilla up. Just because Orks>Eldar & Nidzilla>Orks. At GT point level.

If we want to discuss metagame ranking, there should be a consensus about the point level first off. Also see Blackmoor's post.

CSM are good btw, drop off at higher point levels and are hurt by escalation alot. The only reason to go CSM and not SM are the Kyborgs.

Orks are very good now.

Eldar > Orks. Nidzilla > Eldar.

CSM are hurt by escalation? In my CSM army, only my DP are affected by Escalation.

Which is a D U M B rule and needs to be removed from 40k tournaments anyway.

Stelek wrote:Which is a D U M B rule and needs to be removed from 40k tournaments anyway.

Word is it'll be gone by summer with 5th ed. Good riddance.

Stelek wrote:I've been playtesting Orks for what, 8 months? I've seen alot of configs.

My Gunzilla list trumps this list of yours (most Ork lists btw).

My current Eldar do not rely on the strategy others use. You have a relatively small Ork army. Moving in and assaulting your storm boys/truck boys then your regular boyz...isn't difficult to do with my Eldar army. Yes, I really can take down lots and lots of Orks. Having a 5+ cover save doesn't mean a whole lot with small Ork units--trust me. 30 orks or no orks! I say.

Please note I don't run an avatar, wraithlords, or harlies...and I have a Fire Prism for fun mass killing of cheap troops.

Also, my current planned Ork army would slice yours to kibibble as would my HB Smurfs and Tau would really depend on stopping the rear assault. The version of my Tau I plan on going to at some point would essentially be immune to the rear assault, but that's probably a year away. Wife says I can't buy 2 grand worth of models on a whim. Can't see the problem, really....

I dont think you can just look at someones list like that and say "yeah I'd beat ya pretty easy" thats assuming alot, there IS skill and tactics involved as well as army composition. It kind of comes off as arogant. And my whole list was to show orks now have very viable counters to top tier, and dont deserve to be written off as strong B rank armies.

Stelek wrote:CSM are hurt by escalation? In my CSM army, only my DP are affected by Escalation.

You are not only affected by your own units startig in reserves.
Your oponent can run a fully mechanised army and then deploy his stuff wherever it hurts you most.

Stelek wrote:Which is a D U M B rule and needs to be removed from 40k tournaments anyway.

qft.

The idea isn't bad, but the actual rule is total .

Well my Chaos army isn't affected by anyones deployment but my own, honestly.

Everything is move and fire. What do I care where you are or what you do? (Answer: I don't. It's quite nice.)

I never wrote Orks off. I think Orks are (now and very soon) dead hard.

I just think I can handle most lists but my Nidzilla with my Orks, including most of the Ork lists being posted here since they ignore the basic strength of Orks: 6 points.

Adding alot of other stuff isn't necessarily needed as basic Orks are so good.

Stelek wrote:Well my Chaos army isn't affected by anyones deployment but my own, honestly.

Everything is move and fire. What do I care where you are or what you do? (Answer: I don't. It's quite nice.)

I'm starting to wonder how your list would look like then...

dornsfist wrote:I don't know why more people don't play that army. (In reference to Dark Eldar)

The models are atrocious and the fluff is even worse. If you thought codex Bad Spiky Marines was bland, don't even bother opening codex Bad Spiky Eldar, with less pages to boot!

Not to mention that the only way you'll ever get your hands on DE models is through mail order, because they are on the shelves, and you pretty much see the result.

And how can you say Sisters suck?? Faith points (AP1 bolters and flamers and INV saves) 'Phim, Leadership book, and 3x Exorcists sounds like a damn fine list to me.

I posted it. Let me go dig it up.

http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/205342.page

Sisters were more fun before Andy Hoare broke the Codex with alot of incredibly crappy units.

It was better in CA than it is now.

whitedragon wrote:
Not to mention that the only way you'll ever get your hands on DE models is through mail order, because they are on the shelves, and you pretty much see the result.

Relly? I know 2 LGS around who sell anything you need to field a DE army. Including that piece of codex...The Fluff part isn't even worth the paper printed on.

whitedragon wrote:
And how can you say Sisters suck?? Faith points (AP1 bolters and flamers and INV saves) 'Phim, Leadership book, and 3x Exorcists sounds like a damn fine list to me.

They don't suck. They just can't keep up with Nidzilla and mech Eldar. Thus they are not competetive and above 1500 points you lack of longrange firepower a lot.

They once were one of the armies to beat.
Maybe when they're redone with the Codex:Inquisition.

PS: Yes, I love living in daydreams....Codex:Inquisition next year...

Sisters don't work in the shooty tournament scene currently.

I'd love to see them with 36" range multimeltas. That change alone would make Sisters viable.

Call them organs of love if you don't want everyone to have them, but for goodness sake...24" anti-tank power just doesn't cut it.

Having to replace my rets with exorcrap? Please!

Exorzist are one of the best tanks ingame.
Being able to move and shoot at full power. For 135 points.
The only downside is that it is close to useless once the weapon is destroyed. But same is true for the Hammerhead Gunship.