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Indeed. Unfortunately, my Retributors were and are better units when given heavy bolters. I loved them better?

No, they are inferior to the Exorcist. Why?
Because of the rest of the list. Sisters can't pack any high S long range shooting other than the Exorcist...
The major problem for Sisters above 1500 points is, that they cannot field more longe range firepower other than inducted guard.

I agree, that in some matchups those hvy bolter Retributors (Does anyone really consider taking them with meltas? *lol*) would be better. Maybe against horde orks or the like. But then you wouldn't need the act of faith and could field elite Inquistors who are pretty resilient.

I know.

And now you know why I sold my Sisters.

Thanks for catching up. lol

Your welcome...I just wanted to remind you why you don't want Andy Hoare to write a 'dex for your army.

vogelfrei wrote:I agree, that in some matchups those hvy bolter Retributors (Does anyone really consider taking them with meltas? *lol*) would be better. Maybe against horde orks or the like. But then you wouldn't need the act of faith and could field elite Inquistors who are pretty resilient.

Meltas need to be either 36" or Assault 1. As they are they're pointless. Everyone agrees on that.

I'm a fan of the Heavy Bolter Retributors. They look awesome and fulfill the need for dakka. With 12 shots they'll also get a ton of Torrents of Fire against things like Guard. Being able to pick off the Lascannon and Plasma Gunner out of a Guard squad removes most of its threat.

They're not as important as Exorcists - but if you've already taken 2 Exorcists, they make a fine backup.

vogelfrei wrote:Your welcome...I just wanted to remind you why you don't want Andy Hoare to write a 'dex for your army.

Dude I'm telling you I know. I argued with him enough about the 'Dex before release.

Sales proved my point, but does that really help the game?

Sometimes, having a 'vision' is pointless if you are the only one that sees it.

You argued with Andy Hoare? Well, maybe then they should have the 'dex done by you next time.

I love the Rets for killing Marines with divine guidance.

I agree with you on the multimeltas. I think Assault 1 would be better across the board, 36" might lead to some abuse.

I'd give anything to have even 36" portable exorcist ML's, move or fire. Be fluffy and not bug people...Sisters were different than everything else (except for the Power armor/Boltguns) and that's what their appeal for me always was. I miss 'em.

vogelfrei wrote:You argued with Andy Hoare? Well, maybe they should have the 'dex done by you next time.

Dude I've argued with <insert GW Developer here>. Pleaded, begged. Makes no difference in the end. I think I've influenced maybe half a dozen changes in various 'dexes over the past decade. When wholesale changes were needed, not pick the biggest complaint and fix it then release.

The models are still as sexy as before and a pure sister army is fun to play at 1000 points.

That idea with portable exorcistlaunchers is great...I thought about it a lot. But it would be like a monolith without the 'slow' rule, especially if you can field 4 of them in a single squad - up to 24 shots with that thing?
But I like the fluff and it would be nice and fluffy to have it for an hvy weapon option for your troop choices.

Stelek wrote:

vogelfrei wrote:You argued with Andy Hoare? Well, maybe they should have the 'dex done by you next time.

Dude I've argued with <insert GW Developer here>. Pleaded, begged. Makes no difference in the end. I think I've influenced maybe half a dozen changes in various 'dexes over the past decade. When wholesale changes were needed, not pick the biggest complaint and fix it then release.

Yeah, I think there are enough people who could/would update any old Codex for GW. They just don't listen.
Some of the needed changes are very obvious...it isn't that hard to come up with new & balanced rules and they would raise their overall sales if people wouldn't be forced to stick with outdated rules or have to fear, that there will be no update for 2,5 editions when starting orcs.

Oh well, by portable I meant it would be a Heavy 1 not D6.

Essentially a fluffy version of what they need, some kind of S8 Ap1 weapon for dealing with tanks. Making it reduced range because it isn't being launched from a tank wouldn't hurt so long as it was 36".

Not making it available to anyone but Retributors or Celestians also makes sense to me.

If you go with the Heavy 1 version it would be great on Retributors.

My post was about the original exorcistlauncher with decreased range.

As was said earlier, there is no real Metagame to speak of in Warhammer 40k. The tournament scene of 40K seems to exist to discourage the development of a uniform and stable metagame such as seen in M:TG or Pokemon. Instead, things like composition scores and Painting scores encourage random janky tech, things that look really pretty or look funky on paper that are effective in game. Units that are efficient without being over powerful. Units that are fun to play against, but don't take up many points to distract from good units. Such things are frivilous wastes of examination if looking for an objective state of the game metagame, but are necessary for tournament performance.

However, if one where to impose a strict metagame, it would probably appear somewhat like this. Note this is opinionary, subjective and based on theoryhammer and very rough maths.

Tier 0
Mech Eldar: This list is capable of nearly everything. It has the falcon, which is nearly unkillable in any effective fashion, has token AT firepower, great firepower against hordes and medium/light vehicles, slightly better than token Anti-MEq firepower, extreme mobility, and transport capablity. This transport capability combines with Harlequins, which are one of the true CC monsters of the game. Harlequins are little more than a list of CC related abilities given a cheap price. With the power of CC allowing you to redefine many shooting rules, LOS, as well as inflicting asymmetric casualties and odd out of phase movement, a unit that is so purely based on it, for so cheap a price is exellent. Firedragons are one of the best AT weapons against all non-monolith vehicles, and the flamer makes them useful against hordes as well. Jetbikes with shuricannon and Singing Spear/Destructor 'lock do something almost no other troop choice does. It provides a troop unit that is fast, mobile, JSJs, is as survivable as marines and can shoot at any target with relevant (if sometimes poor) firepower. While many units can do some of these, few can do all, and none can do it for the points. Combined with competent support choices in the HQ and fast attack sections Mech Eldar wins on simple point efficiency, accomplishing a massive number of tasks per platform with admirable competence, said platforms being normally more mobile than the opponents and of comparable (and in the falcons case far exceeding) durability. However, it generally needs to utilize all its units so as to accomplish its goals, and as such is coordination intensive and disruptable in comparison to many other top lists. However, the sheer power of many of the choices can render this disruptability advantage null.

Godzilla: A good deal has been written about godzilla from a removed strategic perspective. However, godzilla utilizes numerous immensely difficult to kill platforms with all have relevant weapons which fire large numbers of shots. These platforms are also highly points efficient for their durability and game impact. The list also has powerful CC/countercharge that can efficiently remove problem units, and importantly a simple game plan that requires the opponent to fight on your terms often. Your gun platforms can win many slugging matches against opponents similarly tasked units.

Note- Tier 0 has been chosen as these two list types seem to have a number of strategic advantages that are unmatched by other lists. That is not to say these lists should always win, nor that these lists are always inherently better in every match-up, but more to say that these lists get to play with an unfair arsenal of abilities to utilize. We can think of these lists with different terminologies than we can think of many other lists, and as such, the lists deserve mentioning. They also achieve victory differently than many other lists, with game plans that care little about the actual content of the opponents army, and more about the role content of specific units.

I am a bit too tired to go on with this, but I may update tomorrow.

I like where you are going with your post DarkHellion, please continue.

Darrian

Darrian13 wrote:I like where you are going with your post DarkHellion, please continue.

Darrian

I agree. It's a well written roundup and misses nearly no fact.

@DarkHellion:
I assume you consider 1500 to 1750 point limit for your rankting, is that right?

I agree there is no true metagame and I believe the Ard Boyz tournament proved this. Sure there were some flaky missions and the winner got the matchups he needed but he did win and it was not with an army most people would consider top tiered.

What do often tend to see are cookie cutter lists that circulate around the internet... for example:

Eldar
Eldrad, Yriel
3x loaded out Falcon
2 - 3x Harlequins
Fire Dragons

- G

Stelek wrote:
Sometimes, having a 'vision' is pointless if you are the only one that sees it.

What 'Vision' though, the codex reads like an oversized joke at points.

It seems like they were making a 'upgrade' codex like EoT or all the old chapter specific codexes but changed their minds at the last moment.

Here's how it shakes out in my experience. Non-listed armies are below both lists, a Tier 3 if you will. This is considering only the lists ability to score a victory. Tournament tiers would look differently, with the need for VS's shaking things up.

Tier 1 (That is, the most competitive armies):
Nidzilla (Fexes, Tyrants, Zoeys and Stealers)
Holo-Harlies (3 Falcons and 3 Harlequin units)
Offensive Crons (Immortals or Destroyers, some manner of assault protection)
Crisis/Mech Tau (Crisis Suits, Devilfish, some railguns)
New Chaos (Twin lashers, Obliterators, Plague Marines)
**New Orks (Not sure what it'll look like, but probably storm boys and a wave of sloggers, with rokkits and klaws sprinkled throughout, 2 bike Warbosses?)

Tier 2 (Next most competitive armies)
Shooty Space Marines (6 man las/plas, assault cannons, some kind of counterattack unit)
Shooty/Dropping IG (Bassie, lascannons that start on board, plasma squads drop)
VP Denial Necrons (Liths, Orbs, that jazz)
Drop Pod Marines (Drop pods, plasma, Fear The Darkness)
Blitz Blood Angels (Big Death Co, other fast moving PFist bearers)
Dark Eldar (Warriors w/lances, wych assaulters, lots of skimmers with lances)

I don't see how people can claim there is no meta game. Just because 'Ard Boys has a different rules mission and point limits doesn't mean there is no meta game. Just that 'Ard Boyz meta is different from what you would encounter in a GT. Most of the killer lists you see

these days are the more balanced armies. Armies that balance mobility , shooting, assault (not tau) and overall hardiness. Part of this balance is anticipating what other armies you'll encounter. Part of the current meta game is to make a balanced army that is competitive

against nidzilla and mech eldar. Just because it's possible for any army to win doesn't mean that you're going to be desinging your tourney list via dart board. If it's local your going to consider what type of armies your frined are likly to bring. And if we're talking about GT's

and "ardboys your going to consider how to deal with some of the killer lists out there.



If you go to tourney's whith theme lsits ignor everythign I just said.



As far as deciding what lists should be 1st 2nd and red head step child tier, you really need a more objective method than "I think this army is roxxors" ( I'm not sure what roxxors means either.) Since player ability is always going to be a nasty torn in your side you'll probably have to look ag who won GT"s and the like, account for the player to win ratio, and and organize by army composition and the amount of wins.

Gdurant, you obviously don't understand the concept of a metagame. Your final statement proves it. I will explain later if someone doesn't do so first, but you aren't getting it.

DarkHellion wrote:Gdurant, you obviously don't understand the concept of a metagame. Your final statement proves it. I will explain later if someone doesn't do so first, but you aren't getting it.

Oh well my bad

Wikipiedia wrote:Metagaming is a broad term usually used to define any strategy, action or method used in a game which transcends a prescribed ruleset, uses external factors to affect the game, or goes beyond the supposed limits or environment set by the game.

Maybe not the most definitive source but I proved my point.

Your Humble Narrator wrote:As far as deciding what lists should be 1st 2nd and red head step child tier, you really need a more objective method than "I think this army is roxxors" ( I'm not sure what roxxors means either.) Since player ability is always going to be a nasty torn in your side you'll probably have to look ag who won GT"s and the like, account for the player to win ratio, and and organize by army composition and the amount of wins.

This was just part of the epistemology. People keep posting their own subject teir standards. I was just offering a more objective way to figure it out with out resorting 'yes-huh' and 'nuh-uh's.'

You aren't though. The skill of the pilots is irrelevant to the strength of the army lists itself, which is what we are attempting to provide with a tier list. We are assuming that the players do not make play errors and that dice roll randomly, otherwise my lone guardsman can be tier 1 because you will never decide to fire upon it, I will always roll 6's and you will always roll ones.

DarkHellion wrote:You aren't though. The skill of the pilots is irrelevant to the strength of the army lists itself, which is what we are attempting to provide with a tier list. We are assuming that the players do not make play errors and that dice roll randomly, otherwise my lone guardsman can be tier 1 because you will never decide to fire upon it, I will always roll 6's and you will always roll ones.

Again your putting words in my mouth. First off my comment on generalship was to allow for the fact the non teir 1 amies can can win tournements. I'm not saying that if army x roll all sixes and your army y rolls all ones that I'll win. I was saying that armies that people agree aren't top tier like swarm nids or Dark Angles can and have one tournements. But thats neither here nor there.

We can assume that armies that win tournaments, for the most part, work well with the meta game. I didnt' say that a lone guardsmen could win so much that if we noticed that 90% of mech guard armies started winning tournaments that they are probably one of the higher tired armies. This was in reference to the debate on whether or not safh marines and mech tau were worth of tier one.

Again my original post was to offer a counter point to people who don't think that 40k has a meta game. I said that the meta game chenges depending on the type of tournement your in (ie 'ardboys or GT)

Either way I'm done debating the meaning of meta game and re explaing myself.

That said I'm curious what a top tier ork army world to the current metagame.

i've been thinking about the ork factor in the upcoming metagame. there could be all sorts of ramifications.

for instance, players will need to consider hordes when building lists. this may lead to marine players re-evaluating missile launchers as a way to force ork mobs to spread out. increased missile launcher use combined with all the rokkits ork armies like to use might put enough AP 3 weapons into the metagame that tyranid players start putting extended carapace on their gunfexes. or, alternatively, none of that will happen.

Most tournament still contain a high amount of armies comprised of a 3+ armor save (MEQ). So regardless of whether these armies finish high in the tournament if you are looking to 'tune' your army list to play in a tournament you still need to factor in plenty of weapons that will negate a 3+ armor save.

Beyond that, if you are trying to get the maximum amount of battle points you know that you will likely be facing some of the more common powerful builds such as Godzilla bugs, Falcon-heavy Eldar, twin-lash Chaos, etc. As such you when building and testing your list you would want to plan and practice schemes to handle these types of threats.

In this way, I would say there is very much a "meta-game". Since initial tournament pairings are random, the most common type of army played is important to consider and the common types of armies played by players who finish with the top battle points are also imporant to consider because if you are aiming to be up there at the top you will inevitably face those army types.


Ork armies will only affect the meta-game if they either:

A) become a signifigant number of the total armies played at a tournament (unlikely).
B) become a staple army type played by players with top battle points (more likely).

powerful builds such as Godzilla bugs, Falcon-heavy Eldar, twin-lash Chaos

I think Orks have the capability to beat all three dominant meta-game armies. They just have to be able to get a right balance of all the necessary units into the same army. Lootas against Falcons, Kommandos and Storm Boyz against Chaos, and very large numbers of both Boyz and invisible Power Klaws against Tyranids. Orks will definately become massively more popular than before but because of the sheer expense and task of building an army they will never become as played as say Chaos Space Marines.

ork factor in the upcoming metagame. there could be all sorts of ramifications.

I've adapted my three Falcon Eldar because of the upcoming Orks. Previously they would be heavy underdogs against a properly built Ork army, but after taking plenty of Destructors and using tank shocks to bunch the Ork units up I think I've shifted the balance back to atleast 50/50.

Write this down kids, cause I'm sick of defining it. (make it a highlighted word please!)

A metagame (or meta for short) is the breakdown of various lists that would appear at a given time. By analyzing the expected spread of lists, it is possible to 'metagame' against your opponents by bringing a list designed with an inherent advantage over the expected field.

For example, if you were to go to an RTT tomorrow, you would probably guess that the most common lists would be Mech Eldar and Zilla Nids. Therefor, it would obviously behoove you to make a list that has strong chances of beating them. Or, failing to find a list that does, take one of the two lists 'metagamed' against itself. That is, designed to win the mirror match.

I think my Orks as planned will be a real pain in the azz to beat.

But, must do other nifty things first like build my craptastic DA list, finish upteen other things, and then maybe start the work on that.

IntoTheRain wrote:

For example, if you were to go to an RTT tomorrow, you would probably guess that the most common lists would be Mech Eldar and Zilla Nids. Therefor, it would obviously behoove you to make a list that has strong chances of beating them. Or, failing to find a list that does, take one of the two lists 'metagamed' against itself. That is, designed to win the mirror match.

I don't know where you play your RTTs at, but I have played in RTTs across the country, and you will see maybe one of each of Mech Eldar and Godzilla nids, and the rest will be a ton of Marines.

In the past month I have played in 3 RTTs and I have played Crimson Fists, Eldar, Black Templars, Necrons, Imperial Guard, Chaos x2 and Dark Angels. So that is 6 out if 8 armies being MEQs.