Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

It seems that Necrons are uniquely suited for Ork killing.

They have the ability to rapid-fire, and then they can leave combat then rapid fire again.

They are also very durable. The 3+ save and WWB means that they will be had to put and keep down.

And then there is dropping 2-3 monolith in the middle of the Ork army and Flux Arching the Orks to death. They can also use them for the famous "Monolith of Fury" tactic to avoid assault.

If the Necron player does not want to go with Monoliths, they can take Destroyers that can move fast and stay out of LOS of the Lootas (or kill the Lootas), and shred Ork units.

The only thing that is bad about the match up for Necron is if they get a lot of Orks in assault with small units, and then the Necrons might break.

It definitely wouldn't be easy.
I'm seeing a lot of people get shooty lists together. If it is a warrior heavy necron list then orks can inflict enough saves to try and force a phase out. If you are bulking up on monoliths and destroyers, I'de say ignore the liths snd try to tie up some of the destroyers with your fast assault. A round or two of powerfisting can wreak havoc on necrons if they're out of formation.

I think necron success will be directly proportional to how many monoliths they bring. Necrons will need to be able to suck units out of hth to win.

Arc fluxes are going to do a lot of damage to the orcs and without a good source of high strength attacks, the orcs are going to struggle. The necron player will need to focus on a few of the orc fast units (def kopters) first, but once they are out of the way, the orcs are not going to have much left to deal with the necrons.

Heck, if the necrons consist of warriors, a lord, monoliths, and some destroyers it seems like it’s almost game over from the beginning. Sit the lord and the warriors in the back and leave them there. Have the destroyers dance around the back field picking off fast units as they move up. Drop the monoliths into the middle of the orc army and star arc fluxing. If any orcs start getting close to the destroyers, the warriors can move up and add in some extra fire power. Sounds like the orcs would have a hard time dealing with that sort of game.

If you were the orcs and came up against a necron player with that stratagey, what would you do?

I don't think they even need to suck people out of HTH.

I think you'll find most games, 40ke style lists (destroyers, immortals, deceiver) will do just fine against new orks.

If they take a veil and a couple monoliths though, the game is going to be really hideous.

Orks would need to engage multiple units for sure so they can try and stay locked in combat. Hordes will struggle against the amount of fire power put out from multiple monoliths, destroyers, immortals. I think you will need a lot of speed to engage as quickly as possible.

I tend to divide Necron lists into 2 types.

Defensive Crons: Liths, Orbs, that jazz

Offensive Crons: Destroyers/Immortals one Veil or C'tan for assault insurance

I concur with this thread's consensus that Defensive Crons ruin Orks day. The strategy Phoenix describes seems to me to be GG for the orks. Trying to outshoot the Necrons if they are getting double WBB from the monolitsh is an utterly losing game, and if the Orks fire Rokkits on the Liths they aren't getting any benefit from the shootas. The Lootas, of course, can't do squat. Charging will just result in the Necron shuffle, as they orb up from the klaw, go through the monolith and rapid fire. Biker Warbosses would be a big help to the locking up more and more units cause, but I think this would still be a really hard matchup.

The offensive crons I like to use haven't seen local use against the new Orks, but I'm not hopeful. We can definitely scythe away 24" from our infantry bricks each round, but the Deceiver/Veil is only in one place at once. Between Stormboyz and double warbosses on bikes there are a lot of thing with a really long charge radius that will take Necrons to town in melee combat. Hilariously this might be the only enemy who would call for the Nightbringer instead of the Deceiver. I'm probably going to get a game against the New Orks with my crons soon enough, so I'll soon have a better idea bout this one.

The thing about the warbosses is that, unlike most armies, Necrons can kill them with ease with fast shooting.

If they get close enough to charge early on, they're not IC protected because a bunch of destroyers fly up and murder them. It's going to be very delicate keeping his IC protection.

If you only guard him with one squad, you run the risk of the Necrons annihilating that squad with focus fire (3 squads of immortals can very feasibly kill a 24 ork mob in a turn) and then destroyers killing the warboss.

Either the warboss is waiting til late game to charge or he risks getting killed.

Not an easy game and requires excellent play by the necron player judging ranges and what not, but I don't think it's all that weighted a game.

How good are immortals at killing shootas?

2/3 of shots hit, 4/9 wound, and 8/27 die (assuming 5+ cover), so each shot has a 30% chance to kill an ork. To kill 30, you'll need 100 shots total, or just 5 volleys from 10 immortals. 30 immortals need 2 turns to do it.

But if they're in range to do it, they're getting assaulted by something.

I played meatgrinder where I had to kill all the necrons, that was a bad matchup with immortal squad teleporting to every board corner after turn 2. Also ambush where I was ambushed vs shooty tau, and again where I was the attacker but the enemy was mech eldar who just flew off the board turn 1. It seems the rules hose me more than any specific army does. There are just certain missions where you ask yourself why do we even bother playing this out, we already know the outcome.

I agree with the speed tactic. If the orks can get there fast even with the monoliths and res orb its going to be hard to stand everyone back up and if your lookin at runnin 2 to 3 monoliths then your lookin at a whole lotta orks to take down. Id put my money on the necrons to phase out before all the orks die

mauleed:

How good are immortals at killing shootas?

2/3 of shots hit, 4/9 wound, and 8/27 die (assuming 5+ cover), so each shot has a 30% chance to kill an ork. To kill 30, you'll need 100 shots total, or just 5 volleys from 10 immortals. 30 immortals need 2 turns to do it.

Except, of course, that you likely won't need to kill a whole mob of boyz, just enough to put them under half-strength and make them fall back, and most people don't run full-sized mobs.

But if they're in range to do it, they're getting assaulted by something.

How do you figure that? Not even Stormboyz or a trukk mob can guarantee that from 24".

an armour-heavy ork list would certainly suffer, thanks to the gauss weaponry special anti-vehicle rules, but a horde army would bring a decent fight to a necron opponent. In a sence, they'd both be trying to make their opponent 'phase out ' - literally for the necrons, and failing Ld rolls for orks.

I like the way you put that Clang. It makes perfect sense.

Darrian

tegeus-Cromis wrote:mauleed:

How good are immortals at killing shootas?

2/3 of shots hit, 4/9 wound, and 8/27 die (assuming 5+ cover), so each shot has a 30% chance to kill an ork. To kill 30, you'll need 100 shots total, or just 5 volleys from 10 immortals. 30 immortals need 2 turns to do it.

Except, of course, that you likely won't need to kill a whole mob of boyz, just enough to put them under half-strength and make them fall back, and most people don't run full-sized mobs.

Well, I said before that the only way to run these guys is mobs of 30, where you have to kill 20 of them before anyone cares.

But if they're in range to do it, they're getting assaulted by something.

How do you figure that? Not even Stormboyz or a trukk mob can guarantee that from 24".

Because you're going to have to be alot closer than 24" if you don't want all that shooting to just kill 2 or 3 models that are in range. And sure, you'll kill everything in range most likely, but there'll be some other unit that gets close enough if you're doing that.

Well, I said before that the only way to run these guys is mobs of 30, where you have to kill 20 of them before anyone cares.

You believe that, but look at people's lists and you'll see this isn't a universal. There are a lot of 20something-boy units floating around.

Because you're going to have to be alot closer than 24" if you don't want all that shooting to just kill 2 or 3 models that are in range.

Something like 21" should be enough to get ~10 boyz in range, don't you think?

And sure, you'll kill everything in range most likely, but there'll be some other unit that gets close enough if you're doing that.

That's not a sure thing at all.

If you set up a wall of 2 Monoliths (corner to corner) good luck charging the Necrons.

Heck, you can set up in a corner with the Monoliths screening all access from assault until one is shot down.

Well nothing is set in stone and we can't really know exactly what's going to happen till its played out on the battlefield. I just see it as an uphill battle for the orcs.

It seems that if the necrons sit back with their shooty units and drop the monoliths in the middle of the enemy lines, its going to be a 2 front battle for the short ranged orcs. They can either charge out to deal with the bulk of the necrons or sit back while trying to down the monolith while weathering the hail from the destroyers. Even if they make it all the way across the board to the necrons, the lord can veil out a huge brick of necrons back to the other side of the board where the monoliths are and the destroyers can turbo boost over the orc heads to the other side of the board. This is of course working on the assumption that the destroyers have been successful at eliminating most if not all of the orc mobile elements (kopters, bikes, truks, battle wagons, and the like). So in the end, the necrons lose whatever they couldn’t bring though monoliths in that turn and gain a reset on the range game. Net effect, necrons win. I don’t see phase out as really being a likely outcome for the necrons, but I’ve been wrong before.

I think Ork armies with fewer, yet larger units will struggle against Necrons, while a carnival of units will have a better chance.

The Necrons themselves will be fewer total units and their Immortals or destroyers can concentrate on shooting one unit at a time. If the number of Ork units comes close to the number of Necron units, the each cron unit can pick an Ork target and fire every turn.

If, on the other hand, the Orks have filled up the foc with a variety of things, they can swamp the necron list with units that must remain untouched since there are not enough necron units to shoot them all.

The stats and odds are all nice, but there is an above average chance that with so many units, somebody is not going to shoot very well and that lets another Ork unit slip through. When the carnival of Orks hits the necrons, they have a chance of being overwelmed.

DarthDiggler wrote:I think Ork armies with fewer, yet larger units will struggle against Necrons, while a carnival of units will have a better chance.

The Necrons themselves will be fewer total units and their Immortals or destroyers can concentrate on shooting one unit at a time. If the number of Ork units comes close to the number of Necron units, the each cron unit can pick an Ork target and fire every turn.

If, on the other hand, the Orks have filled up the foc with a variety of things, they can swamp the necron list with units that must remain untouched since there are not enough necron units to shoot them all.

The stats and odds are all nice, but there is an above average chance that with so many units, somebody is not going to shoot very well and that lets another Ork unit slip through. When the carnival of Orks hits the necrons, they have a chance of being overwelmed.

Which would be a completely valid if orks didn't have to take morale checks. With lots of small units, the necrons (or anyone) will simply shoot each unit until it has to take a check, then move on to the next. Because the orks aren't speedy, they'll fail plenty of checks, and save the enemy plenty of shooting.

Thats the thing about this dice game, it's a dice game. Overwelm the crons in units and those cron shooting rolls will take strange deviations. I've heard, when discussing the average temperatures of given places, that the temperature of a place is the average of it's extremes. Last week in Chicago the average temperature was 30 degrees and yet it was never 30 degrees. It was 15 degrees one day and 45 degrees the next.

We can say a unit of Immortals will kill 6 Ork boyz a turn (in cover), but one turn they might kill 2 and the next turn they might kill 2 again, while if they had a 3rd turn they would have killed 14. They are averaging 6 a turn, but sometimes it's not coming out like one player would want it to come out.

The same goes for the morale checks. All it takes is one Ork unit to make a leadership 6 check at the wrong time for the Necrons and it could be downhill. If the Ork player gives himself enough units to make that leadership 6 check at the right time he might be more successful.

I guess I just have in my minds eye one unit of 30 boys squared off against one unit of 10 Immortals and everytime the Boyz advance, the immortals back up and shoot 20 times.

Then I imagine the same unit of 10 Immortals squared off against 2 killer kans, 4 wabikes with nob + Klaw and and 3 meganobz in a trukk. Now the Immortals are still backing up and fireing, except somewhere along the way they blow a roll of shooting and now multiple threats are bearing down on them.

(I took the 3 Ork units out of thing air, not to be seen as something that I have thought long and hard as optimal units for anything short of a quick example, though 2 killer kans would do wonders to the Immortals in HtH, but so would the other two units.)

You make it sound as if one depleted mob making it into CC = GG Necrons. This is pretty damn far from the case. Plus, even if your MSU Ork idea would work against Necrons (and I don't see why it would), is it worth gimping yourself against most other armies just to do that?

I'm only holding the idea out vs. necrons. The thread was just addressing them and that's all I was answering. I don't think it would work as well against other armies because other armies can match the high unit totals and other armies can do other things (powerfist champ etc..).

Hey this is all theory and conjecture. It's just crossing my mind at the moment that's all.

MSU against necrons is asking to get focus fired by an army that is more mobile shootie than anyone else in the game.

Terrible idea.

Good necron armies have enough counter-assault to take it to you when you get a couple guys through (two squads of 10 warriors that are basically sacrificial, sometimes scarabs, a deceiver, whatever).

I think the only ork army with a chance against Crons starts and ends with 80-120 shootas.

The Nightbringer may cause Orks problems.
Tempest works on Orks, Gaze of Death is dangerous against large mobs, and he should munch Warbosses.

On the other hand, A nightbringer is going to be a lootas squad's favorite target. T8, true, but only a 4+ unlike the 3s and 2s that most other monsterous creatures sport.

Thats the thing about this dice game, it's a dice game. Overwelm the crons in units and those cron shooting rolls will take strange deviations.

I don't think that planning an army around statistical improbability is a good idea.

Instead, plan it around taking the statistics out as much as you can.

That's why Ed's point about 30 man mobz is a good one. It's the most effective way to get Orks into CC.

Take 30 boyz. One squad of 30 or 2 of 15.

In order to get the 30 man squad taking morale tests, you have to kill 19.

In order to get both 15 man squads taking morale tests, you have to kill a total of 8.

It should be obvious which one is easier.

Put it another way. A squad of 5 Immortals has 30 orks bearing down on it. On average, those 5 Immortals will kill 4.4 Orks (assuming no cover). If we assume that average bears out over two rounds of shooting, that's about 9 Orks.

If it's a 30 Ork mob, 9 Orks simply doesn't phase it. It will make CC. Worst case, even with fantastic Necron rolling, they're making CC. The chance of killing 19 Orks with 20 shots is roughly .000009%. And then they'd be checking at Ld 11. On average, 21 Orks make it in.

If it's 2x15 ork mobs, then one is now down to 6 Orks, and they're taking an Ld test ta 6 (if they didn't have the bad luck to take a fail a test to the first shots). Worst case none of them make it (about one in a hundred), but even on the average, Ld6 is less than 50/50 which means most of the time 15 Orks make it in, and 6 are fleeing, and can't rally because they're under half.

Net difference of 6 boyz. Considering that we're talking about 30 boys, Ed's plan is about 20% more effective in terms of boyz making it to CC.

The only disadvantage to the 30 boy mob is that you only get 1 Klaw per 30 boys, which is a shame, but not enough to change anything. Especially considering that with smaller squads, you'd just be paying for another Klaw to run off the table with 5 other Orks.

Necrons are a tough match, but orks have some nifty gadgets at their disposal!

- Stormboyz. they hop into cover, then assault. 16 stormboyz will make 65 attacks causing 7 wounds (PK's included). In a 12 necron unit that will mean they're only 5 then they'll test at Ld 6 (3:1 outnumber, under half) . Most likely they'll run. Now imagine 2 sorm boyz squads slamming into 2 necron squad. phase out ahoy.

Then there's the one that helps the stormboyz:

snikrot and his kommandos. This guy will get his punches in, striking from behind the necron force. put some burnas on the kommandos and before you know it, a 3rd sqaud is being assaulted.

Even if that doesn't works at least tehs torm oyz and kommandos will have bought time for the footsloggers/trukkers aproach and launch an assault.

The greatest asset that orks have on necrons is breaking them on the charge and use outnemuber to necrosn fail the Ld check and run.

necrons maybe the scissors to orks papers, but sometimes the scissor gets rusty..

The Necrons are a good matchup, but against what I think are the 'power' Ork armies with 200+ Orks in them; I think they'll have a hell of a time putting down enough Orks.

If there are KFF running around, that makes the math even worse for the Necrons.

So in all honesty, it depends on the army being a mix'n'match list instead of a serious build, for the Necrons to have a clear advantage.

Nor do I think Monoliths are the surefire crackerjack, Orks aren't any better off trying to kill them than anyone else, but deepstriking into a Ork army is IMO asking for your monoliths to die. It's not like you are going into 60 marines. Even fluxing 3x3 units will just annoy the Orks until you lose your Monoliths...and with 20-30 Rokkits and 6-8 Nobs with PK, I mean really, they aren't holo-fields and if they last a game you've really accomplished something unique there. Personally I don't think a Monolith wall will do much but give the Orks a free assault move.

As someone who plays Necrons and Orks, after thinking about what my Necron lists could do to the new Ork lists I'm coming up with, I just got sold on Ed's idea that Shootas need to be run in 30 Boy Mobz.

I wasn't completely in agreement with him until then, but because the key to beating the Necrons is going to lie in massed assaults, and I've seen what massed firepower (Tau) can do in the few turns they get before you can "get there" to really retaliate, I see his point in 30 Boy Mobz.

Shooting the Necrons simply does not work, against almost everything that the Orks will put out, they get their 3+ Save, then a 4+ WBB, and a reroll if they have Liths. Ork shooting relies on making you fail saves, that goes from Guardsmen to Dakka Fex's. Necrons have incredible insurance from failing saves when setup right.

I'm still struggling to make a 1500 Point Ork list I like, but because of thinking about Necrons vs. Orks, I know it's going to be based around 30 Boy Mobz instead of 20 now.

Voodoo, that's a good thing.

30 boy mobz, even with shootas, are still very killy in CC.