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Teh good fellows over at the Black Industries site have revealed that other than a Space Marine NPC in Purge The Unclean, there will be no Space Marines in the Dark Heresy Books.

There were originally rumors of a DH compatible Rouge Trader Game and Space Marine game down the line, but since BI will stop producing DH supplements after September of this year, we can kiss those good bye.

So it's up to us to come up with our own homegrown rules.

DH gives us:
* Core Rules
* Weapon Info
and once we get Purge the Unclean
* Power Armor Stats

So what's left ?
* Career Paths
* Marine Implant rules
* Base Statistics

Pfft.. None of what's left is that tough.

Implants What all the marine implants do is covered in the 2nd Edition 40K core rules fluff. Give me a weekend of free time and I should have all that converted
Career Paths
Normal Marines should be similar to the Guard Paths
Tech Marines should look like guard + tech priest
Librarians should look like guard + Psyker
Base Statistics
Normal DH uses a 20 base for all statistics, marines should be 40.
Yes, they are that much better than regular humans.

I'll droll on here as more comes to mind, or I get it typed up.

Feel free to post suggestions

You're going to need Space Marine stats eventually. Why?

My most memorable moment reading Gaunt's Ghosts or one
of those Abnett books is when the Imperial Guardsmen are
horrified to see a door open to see... a Chaos Space Marine.

Just one.

That was cool.

If you go to the black industries forum you will find atleast two complete Arstartes career paths.

I do however agree with malfred, why would you want one?

SM's do not make good players, firstly an SM can do one thing, thats fight and that is it.

They are recruited at a very young age and from that moment brainwashed, augmented and trained to fight, kill and pray.

SM's are barelly controlled psycopaths, I say psycopaths as there really is no good word for what they are, psycopath is not enough to describe how socialy disfunctional they are.

They are 7-8 foot bioengineered monsters that feel no emotions, their first response is violence and even in their most plesant state they would feel its well within their right to simply blow the head of a person that is in their way.

There is after all a reason why SM's never are used for diplomatic missions in any way apart from having one stand at the back looking menacing.

Having SM NPC rules as well as CSM NPC rules however is missing, it is after all 40k and while they are very uncommon (what a few milion in the entire empire of man) the players should be able to run into them from time to time.

fester wrote:SM's are barelly controlled psycopaths, I say psycopaths as there really is no good word for what they are, psycopath is not enough to describe how socialy disfunctional they are.

They are 7-8 foot bioengineered monsters that feel no emotions, their first response is violence and even in their most plesant state they would feel its well within their right to simply blow the head of a person that is in their way.

I think both Space Wolves and Salamanders would NOT fit this, as Space Wolves are noted for their emotive states and Salamanders live and work amongst the common population when not at war. So I'd take it as a chapter to chapter exercise.

I agree that the rules for PC Marines are not really needed. The game is about inquisitor squads not marine chapters. I'm fine with only having npc marines and CSMs which I will be featuring very seldom and in extremely small numbers. Anything larger than that and your group better be max level, geared to the max and driving tanks/planes or its good night for them.

Another simple reason to not have SM as players in your party (unless the entire party is made of SMs) is the fact that they spend so much time praying/practicing/not doing gak worth playing that the PCs not controlling an SM would either go on and do 20 hours worth of stuff without him each day or have to constantly wait around for him to finish.

Really I'm looking forward to just focusing on the scope of Dark Heresy as it is currently(in terms of PC races) and adding in all the gear, vehicles, ect, that they haven't had time to do yet. Check out the vehicle rule supplement they posted on their website. That will give you even more options for your party as they can start rolling around in Russ'es, Vulture attack ships, ect. blasting all sorts of big baddies.

well, I suppose that the werewolf-vikings from outer space are almost playable. not at all like the vampire-nazis from outer space, altough even those guys have more character than a smurf.

but still, I'd be fare more interested in other PC races.

I hear ya Anung. Rules for ogryns and ratlings at the very least, but those may be in the upcoming books as well as a few more career paths so we'll have to wait and see. Other xenos that are somewhat human wouldn't be bad either such as Tau and Eldar since they could be as friendly as humans (in otherwords a non-evil party) which is generally what you want when making a party for an RPG.

Orks as PCs would make for an amusing once off. The iconic xenos at least need to be in there as adversaries.
Space marines would be pretty boring, even in a once off in my opinion. Gets rid of a lot of the bowel churning terror of facing down a genestealer if you are a psycho conditioned superman.

Dark Heresy works perfectly well in it's setting.

That said however, there were than a few of us looking forward to the Space Marine Oriented RPG that Black industries was supposed to eventually put out, after the RT one.

It's not about being neccesary, it's about being another option.

I personally think it would be great to Role Play a squad of Space Marines. You don't have to agree with me, but I was posting here for the benefit of those who did.

If you go to the black industries forum you will find atleast two complete Arstartes career paths

Any chance for a link ?

I've been bouncing around over there and haven't seen them

oh, sorry, I didn't mean to say you shouldn't bother. I was just sort of posting my thoughts. Go ahead and work on your astartes paths, I'll read 'em when ya do them.

there is a whole book in the fantasy counterpart for playing a skaven party. SKAVEN FOR CRYING OUT LOURD!

1. skaven: "you go first"
2. skaven: no, you go first"
3. skaven: *stabs them both"


but I think a bunch of Alien Mercenaries, with a Eldar or human pirate as leader, or even a radical Xenos Inquisitor, would be great fun. I mean, just look t all the stuff you can play in D&D. we just need to avoid that everyone plays drizzit.

The work some of the people over at th BI forums is pretty impressive. I'm in favor of higher statistics than they've gone with, but I'm thinking more of an adult marine, while they are stretching it back to when the marine is firs indoctrinated and is still a teenager.

I think I'll be happy to cannibalise good portions of their work and tweak the rest to my vision.

Platuan4th wrote:I think both Space Wolves and Salamanders would NOT fit this, as Space Wolves are noted for their emotive states and Salamanders live and work amongst the common population when not at war. So I'd take it as a chapter to chapter exercise.

I must admit that I am not upp to snuff on ither Space Wolves or Salamanders however being a psycopath does not meen you cant feel emotions just that you do not feel guilt for hurting people.

As for Salamanders working with their common population... well as pitoresque as that sounds I still dont see them being able to pass for a normal human anywhere, not even at their homeworld.

The astares simply arent good player material for an RPG.

To Strimen:
Ogryns and rattlings would be by far more playable as PC's than SM's any day.

The problem I think is that many people see SM's like special forces members in our time, true very good at killing but they have a life on the side, they go to bars, pick upp chicks, gamble... are human.

This is however exactly what the Astartes has honed away, the SM's do not have personalities as such, they represent more biological robots than humans, like I said above, they eat sleep, train and pray, some chapters aparently have emotional moments and others help out in the comunity, probably as gardeners and such but they do not have lives.

As for later publications covering stuff... dont hold your breath, Black Industries has notified that it will close down, they have stated that the books listed in "fourthcomming books" will be put out but that is all.

Link:
Black Industries
You will find the astartes drafts in the 40k roleplay forum but I see you have found em already... Naturally you should tweak your game in any way you like if you manage to put together somthing interesting I hope you put it upp here, I may not support your work but I will find it interesting to read it.

Fantasy Flight Games will be taking over the 40K RPG license, so umm, now I guess I'll just play DH untill FFG puts out the Marine Game

fester wrote:...however being a psychopath does not mean you cant feel emotions; just that you do not feel guilt for hurting people.

Fixed your typos... but, urm, Fester... every RPG I've ever played involved killing something whether it be beholders or evil NPCs or what have you. In D&D the archetypal situation is a dungeon crawl, where you go find an "abandoned" dungeon crawling with nasties, run in, kill everything, loot the place, and everyone feels good about it. All our characters are psychopaths by your definition. Note that I may not be disagreeing with you, here; the kind of behavior PCs engage in would probably be typified as psychopathic if not for the creation of an alignment system where good and evil exist, and where Nietzsche, Machiavelli, and Hobbes' interpretation of anarchy ruled.

What I'm getting at is that if the GM wants the game to be combat heavy, having a space marine might not be such a bad thing for the PCs. Every BL book I've read about marines gives them personalities--doubts, fears, aspirations and desires. Killing is their business, and business is good, but there's more to them than that.

fester wrote:To Strimen:
Ogryns and rattlings would be by far more playable as PC's than SM's any day.

Now, here I'd argue with you about Ogryns. Ogryns are portrayed as having severely diminished mental capacity, which makes role-playing even more one-dimensional than a space marine. Hearing "Deddong Smash!" every session would get old fast. It'd be like playing a slowed half-ogre barbarian in D&D terms... you can do it, and it'd be funny for a one-off, but it really doesn't allow your character to grow, because they don't have the mental capacity for it.

I would argue that the Space Marine, when removed from his chapter and constant reconditioning (as an acquisition to an inquisitor's retinue, for instance) allows the marine a great deal of leeway to explore a character out of his element. I've been running a homebrew 40k game using a homebrew off the d20 modern & future rules since December, and we have 3 of 4 players as space marines serving an inquisitor. It's a high-combat world (the sub sector is at war with the Tau) but they still interact with each other and NPCs in more than the "we need more bullets" way. Maybe we're not being faithful to the portrayal of space marines... but we're all happy with it (and hey, if a social encounter goes badly, they can always try intimidation to get their answers)

You have a point there with the Ratlings, though Fester. I concur that they would be a really interesting sub race to explore; they're a characterful addition to my IG list, even if people do deride them as hobbits in space.

Please don't think of this as a "I'm right; you're wrong" type of response. I think we have different interpretations of the Astartes, and they suit us well. My Astartes fit well into my vision of 40k just as well as you do in yours; I just wanted to share how I viewed marines and how they might indeed be viable in a RP fashion.

Cheers!

Geddonight wrote:

fester wrote:To Strimen:
Ogryns and rattlings would be by far more playable as PC's than SM's any day.

Now, here I'd argue with you about Ogryns. Ogryns are portrayed as having severely diminished mental capacity, which makes role-playing even more one-dimensional than a space marine. Hearing "Deddong Smash!" every session would get old fast. It'd be like playing a slowed half-ogre barbarian in D&D terms... you can do it, and it'd be funny for a one-off, but it really doesn't allow your character to grow, because they don't have the mental capacity for it.

Yes, I agree to some degree, but saw Ogryns as being played much more like Half-Giants from Dark Sun campaign setting. Some what slow and relying more on baser instincts rather than being a "half - slowed barbarian of an uncivilized race". Half giants were on of my favorite races, simple yet powerful creatures that almost seem childish and innocent in their behaviours. It was like the flip-side of a halfling, who is generally childish looking but with adult intelligence.

Space marines are psycho-conditioned and drug "stablised" vs. many emotions, fear, insanity, corruption and other various roleplaying elements and game mechanics that are in Dark Heresy, thereby removing a large section of the rules and feel of the game which hinges on fear, corruption and insanity. That is more my argument. Imperial shock troopers and battle sisters are more along the lines of the elite troopers of the imperium in my view. They are still humans that have just benefited from better training and gear. Space marines are more monstrosities that are so rare they exist 1 per planet or less in the imperium. Again this is all based on the fluff of 40k, anyone can choose to change it as they see fit, but thats why I see them as not being viable for a company to do an expansion of DH to include them as playable races.

If you want some really good rules for both SM and Ogryns, check this out: http://vidzup.com/downloads/career-paths/index.php. These guys have been putting a lot of effort into adding things a lot of people would like to see in the game. They even do a fairly good job on balance issue.

Nice !, Thanks Korcheski.

Hey good find, they have some really nice stuff there in terms of extra rules, house rules and clarifications.

Thanks

I took a look at them as I'm trying to get an adventure going for my deadlands group. I have the core rulebook already. I went looking for the astartes file, but apparently it was taken down for some reason.

On the FFG forums there was a bit of a review of the Inquisitor's Handbook, apparently it only has 1 new Career path: That of the Sisterhood. It did include numerous increased career ranks though. I can't wait to get my hands on them next month.

Check out Dark Reign, they were working on a lot of Space Marine stuff as well.

So no Deathwatch expansion? What? I was really looking forward to that.

BYE

I don't know what happened to that. :(

H.B.M.C. wrote:So no Deathwatch expansion? What? I was really looking forward to that.

BYE

WEll that.s pretty much the complete opposite of what the FFG guy I spoke to at Games day said. He said the RT supplement in a about a year with another one year after that. He wouldn't give a 100% answer as to what this would be about but he dropped enough nods and winks to let you know it would be.