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Alrighty, so I'm interested in starting WM and/or Hordes, but I'm in a unique situation with it. I plan on starting with some of my friends, since there isn't a shop reasonably close that I can go to for games. There are some stores on I could hit on the weekends that are about 40-60 min drive to, but I'd like to get started with some friends who play WHFB/40k as well.

Here's the thing. I know one person is interested in starting Menoth, and while I'm partial to Khador, I have to admit that I'm really liking some of the Hordes models, particularly Circle, but also Skorne. I already have the Warmachine Prime rulebook, but nothing on Hordes.

Here's question #1: When just starting out, is it OK to have some people playing the starters from WM and some people with Hordes? Will it cause a lot of confusion? Is it balanced enough to make it fun?

If it is cool I'll probably pick up the Hordes rules book and give it a full read before deciding on what I'd like to play. Battle College has given me some idea, but I'd like to see the fluff for them too.

Question #2: I hear that WM and Hordes are balanced enough that I won't do too poorly just picking a faction based on the background and models I like since many factions aren't overly powered compared to others? Is this true?

And finally Question #3: Anyone here in the South NJ/Philly area who plays WM/Hordes and would like to meetup for some games in the future?

I found that the starters were not so unbalanced that it was not fun. By the time you are really learning the tricks of the starter box, I'd expect you have it painted and looking at buying a few more models. A warcaster or two changes the whole balance of the starting forces.

I would pick a faction with a playstyle that appeals to the playstyle you like. Models are great, but if you dont like how they play it can be discouraging. And yes, it is balanced enough that you can chose units for coolness etc. There are few Must Haves in the game, and usually they are solos or add-ons.

Neg

So even Hordes vs. WM setups work out relatively OK? I figure Battle College can give me a good idea of how each force plays out, and I could go from there.

Keldrin wrote:I found that the starters were not so unbalanced that it was not fun. By the time you are really learning the tricks of the starter box, I'd expect you have it painted and looking at buying a few more models. A warcaster or two changes the whole balance of the starting forces.

I would pick a faction with a playstyle that appeals to the playstyle you like. Models are great, but if you dont like how they play it can be discouraging. And yes, it is balanced enough that you can chose units for coolness etc. There are few Must Haves in the game, and usually they are solos or add-ons.

Neg

I'm the opposite.

I love how the Trolls play (crazy synergy), but I can't stand the models.

But then again, it's rare to see me in a fully competitive event outside of the
Leagues.

If your group mixes things up a bit, then you'll be fine picking based on looks.

It it's make the strongest combos they can think of constantly, then I can see
playstyle being more of a factor.

1) The Starter Boxes are largely balanced, even crossover games. Although, at that size battle, it's really hard to beat Sorscha.

2) All of the factions have their good and bad models. I would only let models dictate army choice if you don't like the overall aesthetic of an army. Like if you don't like the Indian/Chinese/Japanese influences on the Skorne models, then don't play Skorne. In my opinion, the army background should be the primary decision maker.

As far as balance is concerned, it's pretty good overall. Some say Protectorate and Skorne are hosed because they have difficulty with rough terrain. Some think Legion and Khador (and sometimes Circle) are easy buttons. Some people are bad players. Some people just like to complain. Some think Mercs are a faction.

From what I have seen at the shops being played here (also a noob) the starter boxes are pretty darned balanced.

It also seems to be the general consensus of people whom I have asked this very same thing about as well.

Yes the starter boxes are quite well balanced.

The problem for some players is that not all of the starter boxes are straight forward to play. For example the Cygnar starter has Stryker as the caster, who is well balanced but requires more thinking than for example the Khador box caster Sorcha.

Hordes vs WM works fine, the mechanics and models balance between the games make more balanced lists when factions from both games are on the field. This happens because the Hordes are better at killing infantry and WM at killing big things in general.

I think the starter boxes are generally pretty obvious. They have something that shoots, something that can assault well, and usually a warlock/caster that doesn't have too many unique tricks to figure out. That doesn't mean they're the most balanced - Kreoss and Sorscha's Feats can make for quick games. However, the boxes are good for learning the game since you get a bit of everything in it. I wouldn't hesitate to play WM vs Hordse and any box vs any box. But, don't be surprised if the Kreoss or Sorscha box gives people fits after a couple games. Also, WM has more 'stuff' available, and there's more 'broken' combos and stuff available. It doesn't mean that Hordes can't stand up to it, but it means if your friend wants to take the extreme Menoth build, you're really going to struggle depending on your Hordes faction and army build.

The factions are balanced, but they tend to have some unique flavor/playstyle. If you like fast-moving armies, Trolls probably won't work for you. If you like something that takes a licking and keeps on ticking, Circle probably isn't it for you. If you say what you like, it might be easier to 'match' something to your playstyle.

I'm interested in a little bit of everything really. I don't want to go overly heavy in one direction if I can avoid it.

I'm mostly interested in (looks wise): Khador, Circle, & Skorne. Cygnar is OK too, I actually like just about everything looks wise, at least out of the main pieces they show except for the undead stuff.

From what I can gather, Khador is melee focused, but they seemed to have some ranged units.

Skorne & Circle I don't know much about since I don't have the Hordes book, but I know Circle seems to be like Wood Elves - probably mobility & semi-fragile.

Just debating if I should wait till I get back to the one shop I know sells this stuff to get the Hordes book or if I should just go ahead and get it from the Warstore.

I'm pretty new to WM/Hordes but from what I can tell they play fine against each other.

I'd say get the book, read up on the factions, and pick one based on the type of force you'd like to field and the look of the models.

I haven't heard anyone say a faction is unplayable.

Watcher in the Dark wrote:I'm pretty new to WM/Hordes but from what I can tell they play fine against each other.

I'd say get the book, read up on the factions, and pick one based on the type of force you'd like to field and the look of the models.

I haven't heard anyone say a faction is unplayable.

The only one I'd wait on to play is mercs since they're kinda
weird.

I've heard Hordes > Warmachine because of transfers.

That said I would guess Hordes is more gg when your Warlock gets killed, not that I have experience with Warmachine.

Voodoo Boyz wrote:From what I can gather, Khador is melee focused, but they seemed to have some ranged units.

Khador is indeed melee focused, but it addition it has good blast weapons selection on both infantry and warjack. Khador warcasters also boost their troops with spells.

Voodoo Boyz wrote:Skorne & Circle I don't know much about since I don't have the Hordes book, but I know Circle seems to be like Wood Elves - probably mobility & semi-fragile.

Skorne is strong in melee, has few shooting units and is kind of melee attrition style army.

Circle on the other hand relies on mobility and first strike to win games, they also have lot of tricks to tip the scales in their favour by creating difficult terrain etc.

Caster selection makes a lot of difference though and by changing caster forces you to change the way you play, but the factions are leaning toward some areas because of the available troops and abilities.

Alright, I started looking through each set of models on PP's website and I've narrowed it down to the factions I just really like the look of:

Khador
Circle
...
Cygnar

I may be stuck going with Khador, although I really do love a lot of the Circle models too.

I guess I just need to decide if I want to play "Hordes" or "WM", I know some of the core mechanics of how things go through the Warcaster. I know the WM rules, but I'm going to look over the quick start rules for Hordes to see how it goes.

EDIT: I should state, I'm much more interested in the bigger models. I like the heavy warjacks/warbeasts, though I do love some of the infantry models (in particular the Khador infantry).

The main difference between Hordes and Warmachine is the Focus vs. Fury mechanics. I'm not going to go into detail, but the result is Warlocks need warbeasts; Warcasters do not need warjacks. Since you like the heavies, you'll probably want to play jack casters/beast locks. Since I play both Khador and Circle, I'll give you a run down of who I think are most competitive with multiple heavies.

Khador

Karchev - No brainer. 4 spells and his feat are battlegroup only. Oh, and his jacks gain +1 MAT. Melee jacks are generally the way to go; I'd leave the Destroyer at home. Any other jack is a possibility.

Epic Butcher - He has 3 spells that benefit jacks, but they do just as much or more for infantry or solos. What makes him jack friendly are his Rage Drives. Rage Drives are passive abilities that buff his warjacks when certain conditions are met. Epic Butcher's feat also works well with jacks. I'd bring a Spriggan for the 2" Reach, but again, melee jacks in general are best.

Old Witch - Augury. This passive ability lets her jacks see through clouds and forests. And she makes her own 5" cloud. Bring a brace of Destroyers or the Behemoth and go to town. Another way to use her is to bring a Kodiak and another melee jack and put Weald Secrets on the second jack. Now you've got two jacks charging through forests. This is terrain dependent, however.

Vlad - His feat only affects his warjacks, so you'll want at least one, but since it increases mobility, you can get your jacks exactly where you want them. I find it hard to take only one.

These are just the warcasters with obvious warjack synergies. The ones I haven't mentioned can certainly be fielded with multiple warjacks and win. These ones give you the most punch for your points, though.

Circle

Kaya - No brainer. Pack Hunter and Calm boosts damage and keeps them in line, respectively. Spirit Door moves you or your beast quickly around the table. Her feat is entirely reliant on them. Either Warpwolf is great with her (or both). The Woldwarden isn't ideal, but far from useless. The Gnarlhorn Satyr is perfect for her with its own animus and Spirit Door.

Baldur - No brainer. Elemental Mastery means you want Woldwardens. Which is good, because they can cast Earth Spikes for you. Earth's Blessing works best on one of the animal beasts because they don't have Pathfinder or All Terrain.

Krueger - Lightning Tendrils is a good spell for any model/unit that uses a melee weapon. So there's no real big synergies here. However, Forked Lightning is an awesome spell, and Woldwardens can cast it for you. Beyond that, well, Warpwolves have the highest damage output of Circle heavies, so he's a consideration.

Kromac - If you plan on using him in Beast Form most of the game, you'll want a decent selection of animi. Fury 8 means you'll want the only offensive animus we have, Warp Strike. So take a Pureblood and maybe a regular Warpwolf to go with that. The Woldwarden's animus is useful too, but it can also cast Howling Pit if Kromac is in Human Form.

Morvhanna - A Woldwarden would be useful for casting Undergrowth or Wurmwood, but otherwise synergizes poorly with Circle heavies.

Basically, Woldwardens are fantastic. Its animus, Undergrowth keeps enemy models off of you, protects you a little, and makes it easier to hit nearby enemies. It has more damage boxes than anything else in the game except the Khadoran Behemoth. It can cast and boost offensive spells for your warlock. Its only problem is its relatively low damage output. He works great with any warlock, but Baldur and Krueger shine because of their offensive spells, and Baldur can heal them, make them do Power Attacks for free, and buff their durability and damage.

Perhaps later I'll write a little about the other heavies (Khador's too) to give you more insight.

I don't think Hordes>WM. Due to what's available, in many ways WM>Hordes due to some game-breaking combos.

Here's a rough breakdown based on 40k comparisons and my opinions:
Khador: melee-focused casters and infantry, some strong support infantry, heavy jacks. I think of them as being like Eldar in some ways with their specialist units.
Cygnar: well-rounded faction. Good shooting and melee and magic. To me they're kinda like SM - aren't dominant at anything, but do everything well. Have a lot of denial abilities.
Menoth: Good melee and magic abilities. Have lots of in-faction buffs that may stack. Without buffs, jacks are subpar, with them are great. Tend to have elite melee infantry and cheap horde infantry. Kinda like Orks, cheap infantry, some good infantry, and big walking jacks.
Cryx: Undead. Great magic ability. Have cheap undead and expensive elite melee undead. Mostly like VC.
Trollbloods: Lots of in-faction buffing like Menoth. Great melee ability. Limited ranged options, but the Impaler is one of the best light beasts. Some good magic, but not a lot of long-ranged offensive magic.
Circle: Fast and crunchy. Like wood elves, but without all the bows. Good melee ability, good offensive magic, limited ranged ability.
Legion: Also fast and crunchy. But they have some flying beasts. Really good magic, good melee ability, good ranged ability. Lots of ugly combos and sometimes called an easy button.
Skorne: Can have fast builds, but tend to be slow and durable. Good melee, OK ranged ability, not so good offensive magic.

Voodoo, you're a vet, so this probably doesn't need said. But, play what you want, you're more likely to enjoy it and be motivated to assemble and paint.

Khador, Circle, and Cygnar are all solid factions. Cygnar probably has the most variety. Circle is cool because of the warbeasts, and they're definitely a fast-moving force with good magic support. Khador, on the surface looks slow, but they have ways to move quickly across the board, and tend to pack hard-hitting melee forces.

Protectorate of Menoth : Denial. I prevent from doing x, y,
or z during your turn, especially capitalizing on my soldiers'
deaths.

Well I know that I'm going to pick what I want, but thanks for putting the reminder in there.

I think either the play style of Circle or Khador will work for me, I just need to decide if I want to play with a Hordes style army or a WM one, so I'm off to read what I can about Focus vs. Fury.

Model wise right now I'm leaning towards Khador. The calvary models for them are so much better than what's in there for the Hordes stuff. Of course I don't even know the rules for Cav, considering I only have the Prime rulebook.

Khador players tend to look down on their cavalry since
they're not fearless and their critical knockdown ability
is more suited for regular Iron Fangs. Also, Khador has
so many good infantry options that it's hard to find a place
for expensive multi-wound high ARM mobile models...

If you decide on using the Uhlans, then you have to have
a specific role in mind rather than some of the more
utilitarian IFP or Widowmakers.

Voodoo Boyz wrote:I just need to decide if I want to play with a Hordes style army or a WM one, so I'm off to read what I can about Focus vs. Fury.

So you need to decide if you want to play resource management(WM) or risk control (Hordes) game. The Hordes factions are more able to adapt to the changing situation, when WM factions require more planning in advance as you have set resources (focus) per turn.

As you said you like the big hitters more, you should play Hordes because that game focuses on the big hitters and their synergy with the warlocks and each other. The warjacks are sadly less efficient than infantry at the moment in WM (which doesn't deny the possibility to play with some). In WM the competitive armies at 500 pts usually include one heavy jack, in Hordes they contain 2 to 3 heavy beasts.

Well I find that a little sad malfred, but I'm sure I'll live with it and use them if I really want. I guess a lot of the following questions are related to what Matsuri is saying.

Now for the big questions I have after doing some reading last night.

WM uses Focus, and each caster generates their own Focus each turn, and can spend it as they see fit.

Now with Hordes, I guess I don't understand the Fury system completely. Warlocks start with Fury equal to their stat, but each turn they have to Leach the Fury from their warbeasts.

Does this mean that Warbeasts generate Fury = their Fury stat each turn? Do Warbeasts count as having Max Fury at the start of their turn? Does any unleached Fury on a Beast count towards its Fury stat? Can a Caster Leach fury, spend it, and then leach more fury from other beasts?

Or do you only get to Leach Fury points you "forced" last turn? That doesn't quite make sense to me if it worked that way, since you can theoretically "lose" Fury Points to cast in a game that way, but at the same time, I guess a lot of it doesn't make sense. Please help. :(

Now getting past all the questions on how Fury works, I notice that Hordes beasts can Frenzy, and to me that looks like it introduces some unreliability to their big guys that simply isn't present in WM Jacks. What exactly is the benefit for Hordes beasts then if WM Jacks have no unreliability to them but have the same general abilities.

Again, I appreciate all the advice people are throwing in here.

Since you mention Cav, and you're contemplating Circle, just let me say that Tharn Wolfriders can be one of the nastiest units in the game.

Light Cav is superior to normal Cav in many ways. You lose the ability to make Impact Attacks and Ride By attacks, but you gain the ability to use the mount attack as a normal melee attack, the ability to make a second movement after attacking, and immunity to freestrikes.

Normal Cav hits like a ton of bricks.
Light Cav hits like a Shark with a freaking laser beam attached to it's head.

A look a Wolfriders:

(1) They're hella fast. They're base SPD 9 and get a second movement phase after attacking. They also have the rule Blood Thirst, allowing any model in the unit to immediately move 3" if one model kills an enemy in melee.

(2) They're hard to hit. DEF 15, immune to free strikes, and can hide behind forests before and after they attack due to Scent.

(3) Their Howls rule means that they're always in formation, no matter where they are. This is crazy good in that the leader can hang back somewhere safe and/or close to your Warlock and the entire unit can still receive orders, use the Warlock's CMD, and benefit from spells cast on the Leader.

(4) They don't need LOS for anything unless they're actually throwing their Javelins. They don't need LOS to declare a charge. Ever. Combined with Pathfinder, they pretty much completely ignore terrain and facing when charging.

(5) Their Javelins are freaking twin-linked!

(6) They're effectively MAT/RAT 9 and P+S 11/14 with an extra die against their Hunted target when in it's back arc. All the time. No special order needed (unlike Bloodtrackers), and they don't have to start their activation in the back arc like other models do. On the charge, they're at another +2 MAT (Cavalry Charge) and another additional die. That's a MAT 11, P+S 14, 4d6 mount attack when charging their Hunt target in the back. And that's not that hard to pull off due to their speed combined with Blood Thirst.


And as far as Warlock synergy goes:

Kromac can give them Brutality, boosting their MAT by another +2 (effective 11 in the back arc) and Berserk. Combine this with their Blood Thirst ability and they can shred an entire Infantry Machine army in one turn. I've seen it happen (unfortunately from the wrong side...).

Morvahna can give them Regrowth, making the unit practically invincible (unless they run away). Wave after wave of Wolfriders is not a pretty sight for you opponent. Combined with Scent, you can usually keep the entire unit alive for the entire game by keeping the leader behind a forest and regenerating the unit there each turn.

Kaya can give them Stealth turn after turn by keeping the leader near her. Combined with their speed and Light Cav post-action movement, this makes the unit immune to many ranged attacks for the majority of the game. AoEs still hurt, but they always do.


There are some drawback to be aware of.

(1) Not fearless and base CMD 8. They will run given enough fear checks. If they do run, their speed can be devastating to you.

(2) Fairly weak attacks. They will have trouble vs high armour unless you Hunt it and can get in it's back arc. Fortunately, high ARM usually means low SPD. You can pick your battles.

(3) Expensive, both points wise and money wise. But all Cav is.

(4) Extremely fragile. If they get hit, they will die. Their 5 health boxes may as well be 1 when you consider their low 13 ARM. Again their speed saves them, but just about anything in the game will kill them in one shot if they can land the hit.


That last one brings up a good point for your consideration here. You're considering both Khador and Circle. Polar opposites in some respects.

Khador is low DEF, low SPD, high ARM, high health. They will get hit, a lot, but they will absorb the damage and keep chugging.

Circle is high DEF, high SPD, low ARM, med/low health. They will avoid getting hit, but tend to die easy if they do get hit.

Voodoo Boyz wrote:Now with Hordes, I guess I don't understand the Fury system completely. Warlocks start with Fury equal to their stat, but each turn they have to Leach the Fury from their warbeasts.

The break down on Fury.

One simple and fundamental rule about fury is that FURY (almost) NEVER GOES AWAY AUTOMATICALLY. Focus allocated to Warjacks disappears if it is not used, Fury generated by Warbeasts does not disappear unless the beast dies and the fury is not reaved by a Warlock.

Warlocks start the game with full fury on themselves. This is the only time that fury is automatically generated, after this it must be created somehow.
Warbeasts start the game with no fury, and they generally don't use fury themselves.
When a Warbeast activates it can advance and make it's normal/special attacks without any outside help. However, if the Warbeast wants to make a power attack, boost a roll, or use some other ability that requires a "force", the fury mechanic kicks in. If the Warbeast is inside a friendly Warlock's control area, it can be forced to do one of these things. Whenever the beast is forced, place a fury counter on it. If the beast has fury counters >= it's FURY stat, it can no longer be forced (or transferred to).

Warlocks on the other hand spend fury (like Focus) to cast spells and boost their own rolls. A Warlock does not allocate Fury to a Warbeast like a Warlock does to a Warjack.

Beginning with the second turn, things get interesting.
At the beginning of your turn, if the Warlock has any fury counters remaining on it, they remain there. If it has less fury counters that it's FURY stat, the missing fury does not automatically regenerate.
During the Control phase, the Warlock may now leach fury from Warbeasts in his control area, but only up to his FURY stat. If there are more fury on Warbeasts than the Warlock can leach, that extra fury stays on the Warbeast. After the leaching process, if a Warbeast still has fury on it, it must make a threshold check to see if it Frenzies. Roll 2d6 and add one point for each fury counter on the beast. Compare the result to the FURY stat. If it's <= you pass, if it's > you frenzy.
After the threshold check, the excess fury counters on the beast STILL do not go away. The beast is stuck with it until such a time as the Warlock can leach it. The Warbeast will continue to make threshold checks each turn until all of it's fury counters are leached, even if it is not forced for any "new" fury counters.

One important point here is that the Warlock can leach fury from it's own health bar if necessary, one fury for one damage point. This happens during the normal leach portion of the control phase. This is optional. A Warlock does not necessarily need to end up with full fury after the control phase is over. Outside of the control phase, fury cannot (normally) be leached.
If at any time a Warbeast dies inside of a friendly Warlock's control area, that Warlock can reave the fury from it as it dies. Important points here are that the Warlock must take all of the fury or none of it. If the Warlock takes all of it and ends up with more than his FURY stat in the process, the excess immediately disappears. So, why not always take all of it? Well, if the Warlock will be unable to spend it before it's next Control phase, you could end up being unable to leach from your remaining beasts which may result in some unwanted frenzies.

So, obviously, if you are unable to leach all of the fury that is on your beasts, you have probably decreased the effectiveness of those beasts that turn. The beast might frenzy, meaning that it immediately activates and you loose control of most of it's actions and it cannot be forced for anything that turn. Even if it doesn't frenzy, each existing fury counter on a beast is one less time that it can be forced (since you're not allowed to exceed your FURY stat).
Keep in mind that Frenzy is not always a bad thing, but it does limit your control of your own army.
On the other hand, if you don't generate enough fury for your Warlock for the next turn, his magic/fighting ability will be diminished for that turn, and that's usually pretty bad.

Here's a simple fury example with the Circle Battle Box:
Kaya (6 Fury)
Warpwolf (4 Fury)
Argus1 (3 Fury)
Argus2 (3 Fury)

Turn one beginning:
Kaya (6/6)
Warpwolf (0/4)
Argus1 (0/3)
Argus2 (0/3)

Control Phase: Nothing happens as beasts have no fury on them and Kaya is maxed out on fury.

Kaya casts Spirit Door (3 fury) and Spirit Fang (2 fury).
Warpwolf makes his initial melee attacks and forces 4 times for 4 more melee attacks.
Argus1 forces once to run.
Argus2 uses it's Doppler Bark ranged attack and forces to boost the attack roll.

Turn one end:
Kaya (1/6)
Warpwolf (4/4)
Argus1 (1/3)
Argus2 (1/3)

Enemy does stuff but doesn't kill anything.


Turn two beginning:
Kaya (1/6)
Warpwolf (4/4)
Argus1 (1/3)
Argus2 (1/3)

Control Phase:
Kaya leaches 4 fury from the warpwolf and 1 from Argus1. She cannot leach the fury from Argus2 since she now has 6 fury (her max).
Argus2 takes a threshold check. It has one fury on it, so roll 2d6 + 1. (Kaya's special rule Calm lets you subtract one from this roll, so it's actually 2d6 + 1 - 1) Compare this to it's threshold stat of 9. You roll an 8 and pass the check. If you roll a 10 or higher, the Argus frenzies immediately activates at the end of your control phase and proceeds to select a target for melee attacks in accordance with the frenzy rules.

Post-Control fury situation:
Kaya (6/6)
Warpwolf (0/4)
Argus1 (0/3)
Argus2 (1/3)

Now every thing is as it was at the beginning of turn one, except Argus2 can potentially be forced one less time this turn since it already has one fury on it.


I hope that is all clear, please ask if it isn't!

The name of the game is fury/risk management.
How hard can you push your beasts and maintain control?
When should you force and when should you hold back in preparation for next turn?
How many beasts do you need, and how much fury do you need to generate in order to fuel your Warlock?
All are important questions to keep in mind.



Here is the standard frenzy target selection priority if you're interested. It's much simpler to understand if it's listed in priority order like this.
Enemy model in your melee range
Friendly model in your melee range
Enemy model with you in it's melee range
Friendly model with you in it's melee range
Closest (friend or foe does not matter) model within LOS and charge range
Closest (friend or foe does not matter) model not in LOS but in advance + melee range
Run toward Closest (friend or foe does not matter) model

Ahhhh, I get it now, you don't "spend" Focus to force a beast, and that's what generates your Focus.

Now it all makes sense, thanks dude!

The only downside I see ATM is that I really wanted to play with Jacks, and while I really like things like the Iron Fang Pikemen and the Man-o-War, I wanted to run probably 2-3 Jacks to go with the "support" infantry.

Or I could just use Circle. That new minotaur model looks amazing.

Well, that’s the dilemma.

Due to the finite nature of the Focus mechanic, warcasters have trouble keeping multiple combat jacks beefed up and fed, unless they just don’t want to cast any spells or beef themselves up for combat. Which they usually do.

Due to the more flexible nature of fury, and the ability to force all of your beasts at once, you can power all your warbeasts simultaneously. But if you do max them out, there is some danger of frenzy, and reduced ability to boost the following round.

There are, as noted above, a few warcasters for WM who mitigate the issue. These casters usually have feats or spells that enhance multiple jacks at once, and/or provide extra keen special abilities. For Khador, Karchev is your man. He’s the big nasty guy who’s built himself into the body of a heavy warjack. For extra giant robot goodness, he himself is also a giant robot!

If you really want jacks, I'd check out Cygnar's Darius warcaster. He is the jack-master in my book. He can easily run lots of jacks, even an all-jack army, and be tourney competitive. Cygnar also gets light warjacks, so you can round out the force a little easier.

The new Circle stuff is very cool looking.

As someone else said, and I think someone from PP originally said, WM is about resource management and Hordes is about risk management. I find that I like the Hordes rule mechanics just a little better than WM. But, WM is getting a bunch of shiny new goodies and that's pulling me back in.

If only Darius didn't look like Al Roker in a robot suit...

Karchev is from the faction he likes, and has a cool model.

But Karchev is older than Willard Scott!

And Cygnar was on his list.

Karchev is cool beans and Berserkers.

MY LOVE FOR YOU IS LIKE A TRUCK BERSERKER.

If you want to use the big heavies, I'd suggest Circle over Khador.

Circle has some of the best beasts in the game, and typically runs fairly beast heavy. I use 3 heavies+1 light at 750. I wouldn't be putting that many points into jacks if I was playing Khador.