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In a vacuum...

Ironfangs - High Spd, High MAT, Reasonable POW, Crit knockdown, Shieldwall for ARM14/18
Ironfangs with Unit Attachment - same as above w/ Higher threat range, Minifeat for move and shieldwall once a game.

Man O War Shocktroopers - Shieldwall for ARM17/21! Shoot at POW14. Same melee POW as Ironfangs, 8 DMG, slow if they want to shieldwall, low number of attacks, terrible DEF. If you want a unit that does not die. This is the one.

Man O War Demo Corps - Medium ARM16, 2 attacks at POW14, or 1 super attack in melee at POW14+extra D6, deceptively faster than their SPD4 indicates, as they'll be running every turn, and have reach. They are squishy though, 8DMG or not, but they will wreck the house if they get there. They also have terrible DEF.

Ironfangs and Man O War Demo Corps are "run at your enemy and smash face" kind of units. The Shocktroopers are more defensive and create a bulwark for your weaker units or can be used to hold an objective or anchor a flank.

Granted, there are ways to increase your mileage from these units:

Low DEF on the Man O Wars can be raised by the following stackable effects:

+2DEF from elevation
+2DEF (cloud) from Blizzard - Greylord Ternion
+3DEF from Iron Flesh - The Butcher, Old Witch, Irusk
+2DEF (concealment) from Fog of War - Sorscha
No Shooty from Wind Wall - Vlad

Damage output on the Shocktroopers can be raised by:

Battle Lust - Irusk
Fury - The Butcher
Signs and Portents - Vlad

Of course, these spells would turn the Demo Corps or the Iron Fangs into absolute terrors! Demo Corps can swing with 2D6+1D6 for the charge, 1D6 for battle-lust and 1D6 for icebreaker for a single MAT8 POW14+5D6 hit, or a two MAT8 POW14 hits at +4D6 and +3D6 damage.

Voodoo Boyz wrote:Now my next magic question: Iron Fang Pikemen or Man-o-War (either variety)?

Iron Fang Pikemen - Shield Wall let's them survive crossing the battle field, though at ARM 18 and only one wound, you will likely lose a few. Watch out for Corrosion. If you have any DEF buffs, use them (Sorscha has Fog of War). Critical Knockdown is neat but, like any critical effect, not to be relied upon. CMA lets them hit the high DEF stuff like Gun Mages. They have an 11" threat range that goes up to 13" across rough terrain with the UA. They aren't Fearless, but the UA makes them Fearless. Note that the Standard Bearer does NOT have a pike! A full squad with UA is the most expensive choice (points wise, possibly $-wise, too) of the three. The pikes themselves have a tendency to bend on their own, and many modelers on the PP forum recommend replacing them with brass rod.

Man-o-War Shock Troopers - Shield Wall puts them at ARM 21, but then you can only move 4". CMA is good, but with only 5 models, not as effective as it is with the IFP. Their Shield Guns are strong but with such short range, you'll forget they're there half the time. Medium bases means The Butcher can use them as a screen and no one can Trample over them, but it also makes them vulnerable to things like Armor Piercing. Fearless. Your opponent will have fits trying to kill them until they realize how slow they are and go straight for your caster. Overall, a hard to kill unit that lacks punch. Oh, and have fun pinning their hands on.

Man-o-War Demo Corps - Theoretically, the fastest of the three because you aren't slowing down to Shield Wall. This is the most offensively potent unit of the 3, IMO. They have no way of making things easier to hit, but they can either make 2 attacks per turn or 1 attack with Weapon Master. One time, these guys took down a closed Devastator (ARM 25 Khador jack) with Fury and Blood Frenzy on them (see: The Butcher) in three attacks. ARM 16 and DEF 11 makes them vulnerable to full damage AOEs (Tempest, Breath of Corruption) and sprays. Still fairly survivable because of their damage boxes, and at only 86 points for a full squad, they're a bargain. Medium bases means The Butcher can use them as a screen and no one can Trample over them, but it also makes them vulnerable to things like Armor Piercing. Fearless. Oh, and have fun pinning their hands on.

If I had to pick a favorite, it'd be the Demo Corps. The Carnage/Points ratio is phenomenal. As for which one works best with Sorscha, it's a toss up. Medium bases block more LOS than small, but maxxed IFP is 12 models versus 5. Because of their low speed and few attacks overall, Shock Troopers would be decent, but less than ideal. But if you could get your opponent to waste his time attacking them, they'll be perfect.

You don't have to run a shieldwalled unit with a 5-6 model
frontage. I'm guessing the IFP are more offensive than my
TFG models. I see players doing the conga line in 3s with
the TFG, especially if they have shooting elements.

Of the three, I fear the MoW shocktroopers the least. Neither IFP now MoW need any support, but it makes them all the better. IFP (especially with the UA) and Demo Corps are about equal to me in terms of what they can do.

The question is do you want cheaper, more fragile guys (IFP) or tougher more expense guys (MoW)? If you're running two jacks (I'd recommend getting the Kodiak), then I'd probably go with IFP. Use the IFP to hold a flank, run the jacks up the gut. MoW really need to run up the gut, so if you have that unit, you have two "middle of the board" units and no flank-support unit. That's my two cents.

I really appreciate all the feedback.

If it makes a difference, I'm trying to fit in a MoW Drakhun in with the rest of the stuff, and Widowmakers, if I can.

The Widowmakers are there for good ranged support, which I figure I'll need, and the Drakhun is there just because I think the model is awesome and I've read enough good things about him that I figure he will be worth fielding and learning how to use.

EDIT: From working out the points it seems I can fit what I want if I go with 6 IFP with UA and the Drakhun, but he loses the Dismount Option.

OR

I can give him the Dismount Option and then just take 4 MoW Demo Corps.

Model wise I like the MoW better, but I feel the IFP's give me more speed, which I otherwise lack.

I don't think either is a bad choice. The Dismount Option is hideous. Do you really need a fast unit? If they arrive 'first' and just get outnumbered and wiped out, does that help you? Or does having another slow, hard to kill unit advancing in line with other slow, hard to kill stuff help you more? I'm not saying either is wrong, they have different strengths and weaknesses.

Personally, I would go Dismount and Demo Corps, because I think Dismount is really good. But, I think the IFP+UA is better than Demo Corps. The Drakhun can nearly hold a flank by himself, and that lets the Demo Corps and Jacks go up the gut. Plus, I always tell people to get what they want to paint and play and then worry about whether it's 'the best list evah!'.

I agree with dietrich. Either list would be fine, so you can just worry about the models you like.

If you haven't heard of it, there's a free program called Armies of Immoren you can download. It's basically Army Builder for Warmachine and Hordes. Here's a link. It's really handy.

So I played my first games last night, and it was pretty damn cool.

Both games was my starter box vs. a 300 point army of what the guy had, first was against Menoth, which I lost badly, and the second game was against Skorne, which I would have won if I rolled one more point of damage when I hit his Warlock. But I failed some rolls before that, and I now realize a mistake I made and I could have played that last turn a little better and pulled off the win.

So yeah, I'm definitely pawning off the Necron army I don't want to play any more and am going to build up to about 500 points of Khador.

That all said:

I see the big difference between having just 3 Models from my starter set on the table and the other guy having upwards of 10 or so. Being a game that's done at a model by model basis, I can see the need to take a warrior unit or two. The # of units fielded is a big deal, since in the games I played I had to sit and hold back and shoot with the Destroyer, which I thought was odd with me playing "the Melee faction". You just don't have the # of attacks to keep up with that, and even when using Trample or something, you need to spend that Focus on boosting to hit's instead of making as many attacks as I thought I could do.

So I need some help figuring out what I can do to bump up to 500, at least initially.

I'm figuring that I want something balanced out about 30/70 for ranged vs. cc. This is why I've been looking at using Widowmakers, since I like their higher DEF, concealment bonus, and the sniper ability. Now I can't fit the models I want (the Drakhun w/ Dismount) and Pikemen and Widowmakers, but I can sub the Widowmakers out for a Mortar which gives me:

Skorsha
Jugg
Destroyer
7 IFP w/ UA
Mortar Crew
Drakhun w/ Dismount

I'm just wondering how worth it the Mortar would be over the WM's. I saw that when you have an AOE weapon the troops you want to shoot are going to be spaced out nice and far, but the Mortar has a much longer range, though a terrible RAT, but it has scatter.

I guess I'll just have to man up and pick something.

Here's my question about this game: It seems like there are alot of special character models, are you forced to use these special characters, or is it like 40k where you're able to make your own generic character?

Burna Stompa wrote:Here's my question about this game: It seems like there are alot of special character models, are you forced to use these special characters, or is it like 40k where you're able to make your own generic character?

There isn't anything that I've seen where it's like Characters in 40k or Fantasy where you can customize them or give them wargear or items.

They just come with what is stated and that's it. Same thing for what you'd consider Vet Sarges or Unit Champs.

The difference is that they come with a LOT and they're all pretty different from one another (in terms of your Warcasters).

Here's my question about this game: It seems like there are alot of special character models, are you forced to use these special characters, or is it like 40k where you're able to make your own generic character?

Yeah as Voodoo said, there's no gear related customizability. Some troop units have optional attachments but other wise the rules are pretty WYSIWYG. However, the units themselves play radically different depending on the caster/warlock, solo or even other units in the army. A certain spell or feat can really change the strategy and tactics behind a model.

And thankfully PP is updating the range of models for every faction regularly so there's always something new to try.

Burna Stompa wrote:Here's my question about this game: It seems like there are alot of special character models, are you forced to use these special characters, or is it like 40k where you're able to make your own generic character?

The game is very character driven. They balance out powers by
making everything final. There is no wargear or equipment (well,
other than dismount options for Dragoons).

Units can upgrade with unit and weapon attachments, but so far
that's the only real optional thing you can modify a unit with.

We'll have to see if they release something new with Legends this
August.

That's not so much my question, really. I mean do I have to play with High Warlord Larry McPooplefinger, or can said army leader type be Magic-guy A? You know, is there a generic leader, or are they all named characters that you have to use?

They're all named characters with a unique "feat" per caster, they generally have some unique spells, but some spells are shared between casters of the same faction.

That said, the characters are pretty different from one another so you generally have a guy who's good for Melee, one who's good for casting spells, one who's good with Jacks, etc.

Hmmm, depressing, I don't like playing a game where I'm forced to take Mike McJaegermeister instead of Really Good Shooty Guy 2. Makes me feel like I'm playing a board game when I used a named person, I think it goes back to my many years of D&D, just didn't feel the same when you were playing someone else's character, or the DM premade characters...same reason I don't use named characters in Warhammer. Oh well, guess this game just isn't for me then.

This was one of the things that initially put me off the game too. I’ve been a D&D player since 1985, and been playing regularly for about fifteen years.

But honestly, you get used to it. The quality and clarity of the rules writing, the fact that almost all your units are actually balanced (so you can play what you think is cool), and the tactical flexibility and options make this a pretty darn fun game. WH & 40k are still my favorite wargames, but this definitely comes next.

Oh, I have that problem too. Instead of borrowing my
brother's tooled out Nightshade on Dark Ages of Camelot
I felt like I had my own at all times.

The funny thing is mirror matches. I believe the rulebook
tells you that the imposter is the one that loses. heh.

Here's the thing, though. You play so many games that
you almost WANT to change warcasters around (at least
that's how I feel), whereas 40k games have a much
longer germination time (modification, army lists) that it's
better to have your own unique commander (who has
the exact same stats as most other unique commanders,
but whatever)

When you play you could just say that it's not Severius
the Grand Scrutator, but A Grand Scrutator.

The upside of having unique characters is that it limits the cheese factor. Yes, Haley is broken, but it's not like you can up the ante by giving her a master-crafted rune spear, etc. At first, the character-driven nature didn't appeal to me, but the fluff is so good and strong (and unlike, 40k, it changes), that now I enjoy it. Also, some characters are in their second 'incarnation' of rules. So, there's Captain Victoria Haley and Major Victoria Haley. Obviously, you can't take both in the same army.

Yes, the "whoever loses was the imposter" reminds me of the one troll hero in Runequest (forget his name, the one that gave trolls sorcery) who fought a chaos daemon, and the victor emerged from the cave and declared that he was <fill in name here> and everyone was okay with that.

Trample works really well if you have some way to boost every attack (either a bonus to mat or an extra attack die) or if you're trampling a unit that can't really hurt the jack in melee, like Zealots or Longgunners. You may only hit a few, but the freestrikes from the survivors won't do anything. Trampling a unit like Knights Exemplar is risky, since one free strike will hurt. A lot. I think the game works a lot better with a balance of infantry and jacks.

I'd also suggest if you're playing battlebox games, stick to the boxes. Some things can get out of whack. Or just play mangled metal at 350 pts, which is any caster and any jacks. The downside is that some 'builds' can really own people at that level - Haley with a Hunter, Lancer (for arcing Scramble), and a Centurion is pretty ugly.

Well, another one of the major problems I have with being forced to use a predefined character is that there's no liberty for me to model it the way I want it to look, I don't mean by, I want it to have this super strong gun instead of that piddly sling shot, but I just prefer to make my own army leader, it makes it feel more personal to me. Forcing me to use a specific person makes me feel like it's this Clix game that is so popular at my LGS, there's no generic things in it, just big name characters.

I know "counts-as" isn't enshrined in WM the way it is in 40k (AFAIK), but if your caster is a guy with a spear and some armour and the model you're using is a guy with a spear and some armour, I can't see your opponents objecting.

"Proxies (substitute models) are not allowed under any circumstances, nor can a player enter a tournament with a model that has not been released in stores.

All models must be WARMACHINE or HORDES models appropriate to the tournament venue. Conversions (modifications to Privateer Press models) are acceptable as long as they are clearly based on WARMACHINE or HORDES models. Conversions must represent the model from which they are most obviously drawn. For example, a heavily converted Haley model is not a substitute for Sorscha.

Weapon changes are acceptable provided they represent the same type of weapon replaced. For example, trading a sword for a sword is legal. However, mixing and matching warjack weapons is not allowed.

A judge may make exceptions and approve any reasonable conversion. To avoid confusion and conflict, players must have an unaltered version of the model available in case a judge asks to remove a questionable model from play. It is up to the tournament judge to make the final call on any particular model."

Cut and pasted from the rules forum which was cut and
pasted from Steamroller.

Final word is the tournament judge. So if you convert,
make sure you bring an original model as well.

From the fluffbunny nature of Burna Stompa's concerns, my assumption is/was that tourneys would not be his priority. Not always a correct assumption, I know.

New Question!

At the beginning of its activation, can a model change it's facing in any direction?

I didn't see anything about that in the rules, at least that I could find, but lets say I had skorsha in a combat and wanted to pop her feat, could I rotate her base and not have it count as my "movement" so her LOS arc was changed? My opponent said I could in the game I was playing, but when I went to verify it later on after the game I couldn't find anything on it.

Rotating counts as movement EXCEPT when a model stands
up after being knocked down as it can stand up, face any
direction and sacrifice movement to attack.

No. Rotating the base, while not using any of your actual movement, still counts as moving. After rotating, if you go on to do anything else, you will not be able to move normally this activation. Rotating even forfeits the aiming bonus.

However, Sorscha has a spell called Wind Rush that allows you to move her independently of her normal movement. So you could cast Wind Rush to position yourself, feat, then go on to charge or advance (no running!). Or, you could position yourself, feat, and cast Wind Rush to move her, but you won't be able to charge because you already used your normal movement. In either case, you can still cast spells and either fight in melee or shoot something afterwards.

Oops, you're right. I forgot to mention that it doesn't use
up movement, but still counts as movement.

Question on Charging:

Ok, so lets say a unit or model is just over 2" or so away from me. Can I declare a charge against them even though I won't have to move 3" to be "engaged"? I could move extra distance with each model to ensure that I'm engaged with models after the charge and will move in a straight line that will make me move 3" and still be engaged. Is that legal for a charge?

Similarly, what if part of the unit is just over 2" away, but the guys directly behind them would end up moving 3" or more during the charge, do they get the charge bonus, and just not the front guys? This came up when some Man-o-War failed a charge against my IFP, but they were just out of range and it seems I was denied my charge bonus with most of the IFP except fro some guys in the second "rank" who would move over 3".

Also, do I need LOS to something in order to charge it? Ie. I can charge and reach the target, but they're currently out of my LOS. I didn't think so, but I wanted to double check.

Ok, if you are not engaged, you can declare a charge and move in such a way as to go 3" and engage with a target.

1) By my reading, you can declare the charge without issue. If you move less than 3", it is simply an unsuccessful charge, and you don't get the boosted damage roll. If you do move 3"- in a straight line, and end up with your opponent in melee range- then is a successful charge. At the end of your charge, you MUST face the center of the model you charged, however. So the problem with doing this is that you will often end up charging the side or back of a model and thereby expose your model's back to the enemy (and they will get some nasty back strikes on you). Also, if you moved out of your opponent's front arc to do this, he will get a free strike on you.

Note that this is absolutely useless most of the time for 'Jacks. They can just walk up and engage the target, then boost damage separately. With infantry, this is sometimes helpful if you can get them to wrap around right.

2) Similarly, the charge bonus is awarded in a model by model basis, so if some of them moved 3" and others did not, the one's who moved 3" or more would gain the charge bonus (including any special effects awarded for a "successful charge."

3) You absolutely need LOS in order to declare a charge. That means that the charge target has to be within the 180 degree front arc of your model prior to movement, and not concealed by terrain or other models.

odinsgrandson wrote:Ok, if you are not engaged, you can declare a charge and move in such a way as to go 3" and engage with a target.

1) By my reading, that is a successful charge. At the end of your charge, you MUST face the center of the model you charged, however. So the problem with doing this is that you will often end up charging the side or back of a model and thereby expose your model's back to the enemy.

2) Similarly, the charge bonus is awarded in a model by model basis, so if some of them moved 3" and others did not, the one's who moved 3" or more would gain the charge bonus (including any special effects awarded for a "successful charge."

3) You absolutely need LOS in order to declare a charge. That means that the charge target has to be within the 180 degree front arc of your model prior to movement, and not concealed by terrain or other models.

Thanks for the quick answers, but in a related question, if part of my unit is "engaged" but most of it is not, can they declare a charge on another unit nearby that doesn't force them to break formation with the models that are already engaged?

Yes, so long as they have a charge order (ie, their leader is still alive etc.)

When declaring a charge, you have to declare that the unit is receiving the Charge order.

Next, you move each mini individually, and each will either charge or run. Each mini declares a specific mini as his charge target, so the unit does not have to all charge the same target (just keep them in formation).

You do not declare a unit as the recipient of the charge.