Interested in starting - QUESTIONS GALORE!

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**Mannahnin**

…unless you were using Karchev.

Still, you have quite a valid point that going Circle would give him more flexibility for casters WHILE still using multiple heavies. With Khador no other caster is going to want to field more than two heavies under most circumstances; and a large number of competitive builds use only one.

**keezus**

I was toying with the following ideas:

Vlad - Dark Prince of Umbrey
Berserker x2
Kodiak x2 (full range of power attacks)
Manhunter

Not much on finesse. Vent steam will kill infantry dead - fun times.

**dietrich**

On paper, Vlad can run a lot of jacks. However, he generally likes casting his spells (BoK, Windwall) and cleaving through foes with his sword. While his Feat says "take lots of jacks", he just doesn't have enough FOC to make them all super-killy. Four jacks is too many, even though 2 run for free and 2 charge for free. I'd think about 2 jacks with him, and then the usual Khador stuff - widowmakers, mortar, and a melee unit (Doom Reavers are my suggestion, but IFP or MoW Demo Corps work well too).

**Voodoo Boyz**

I guess that's my main question for WM. If I could run a normal army (I'm guessing 500 Points), that has 2 big Jacks, caster, solo, and some units for support, then I guess I'm pretty happy.

Is it really that different for Hordes? Like if I was going to run Circle in Hordes, would I be running 3 Big Beasts like the new Satyr (love that model), Warpwolf (or purebred), and a Worldwarden, and THEN the support guys?

Now I just have to get around the problem of finding people to play besides the one guy who would start it with me....anyone around Cherry Hill/Philly?

**malfred**

Yes. In Hordes you base your core army around how your
beasts and warlock will interact. I think Warmachine armies
tend to start with warcaster/units.

It's not always the case, but the fact that spell lists change
because of warbeasts and fury stats matter so much is a
large part of it.

**oomiestompa**

Voodoo Boyz wrote:I guess that's my main question for WM. If I could run a normal army (I'm guessing 500 Points), that has 2 big Jacks, caster, solo, and some units for support, then I guess I'm pretty happy.

Is it really that different for Hordes? Like if I was going to run Circle in Hordes, would I be running 3 Big Beasts like the new Satyr (love that model), Warpwolf (or purebred), and a Worldwarden, and THEN the support guys?

Pretty much any Khador caster can get away with using two jacks. You'd just have to choose some of the more focus efficient ones. Devastators don't use much focus; just get up there and use Rain of Death. Kodiaks run for free. Berserkers charge for free. Hell, even the Marauder is just there to do its special attack (until it loses an arm). And jackmarshalling is an option, too. The Man-o-War Kovnik can control warjacks for your warcaster, saving you much needed focus. The Berserker and Devastator are especially well suited for jack marshalling.

The only warlock in Circle that shouldn't be using 3 heavies is Morvhanna. She's really an infantry lock and doesn't have many synergies with the heavies. All of the other ones could run three heavies. Kaya, Baldur, or Beast Form Kromac would probably be your best bets. And yes, after a warlock and three heavies, you should have a little room left over to fit some stones (Shifting and/or Sentry) and a solo or two. Is running three heavies the most efficient way of using Circle warlocks? No. One and two lights or two and one light are the most common configurations. Since Circle lights have some really fantastic animi (except the Argus), they tend to be popular.

Now I just have to get around the problem of finding people to play besides the one guy who would start it with me....anyone around Cherry Hill/Philly?

I'd love to teach you how to play, but I am nowhere near you, I'm afraid. It's been a while since I've pounded some newb face into the dirt.

Hey, malf. What are you doing this weekend?

**malfred**

Had to cancel at the Games Plus prime vs. primal tourney
due to family contingencies.

**oomiestompa**

Prime vs. Primal? Damn. I really wanted to use Durgen. I got him right when he came out and still haven't used him once.

**malfred**

It's like a five dollar pay to enter fee. I think they're
allowing the Magnus battlegroup as well.

**dietrich**

Voodoo Boyz wrote:I guess that's my main question for WM. If I could run a normal army (I'm guessing 500 Points), that has 2 big Jacks, caster, solo, and some units for support, then I guess I'm pretty happy. Is it really that different for Hordes? Like if I was going to run Circle in Hordes, would I be running 3 Big Beasts like the new Satyr (love that model), Warpwolf (or purebred), and a Worldwarden, and THEN the support guys?

For Khador, Caster, 2 Jacks, a couple solos, some infantry is a good start for 500 pts. The caster and jacks are probably 300 points, a couple solos is around 60, and you can fit two small units of something to get to 500 pts.

Hordes works a little different, since your warbeast have animi, that may shade your selection. It also depends on your caster. In general, I wouldn't run 3 heavies at 500 pts, at 750pts, I think it's more valid. But, Kreuger does really well with three woldwardens at 500 pts. You don't have to run heavy beasts, although I think the Circle heavies tend to outshine the Circle lights.

**Voodoo Boyz**

Good News: I've decided to go with Khador.
Bad News: The guy I was going to start with isn't starting.

So while I'm probably going to buy a starter box and maybe another rulebook, I'm going to be banking on finding people to play with at the shop I'm heading out to.

Anyone happen to play at Showcase Comics in Media PA?

**syr8766**

Plenty of people play at Showcase (or at least they used to last year...).

I need to get out that way for a game...

**adamsouza**

A little late to the discussion but...

I've always been under the impression that all the starters are balanced. That being said, they don't all play the same. The abilities of the warcaster dictate different playstyles, and some players just don't know how to play more than one way.

Khador is great. Nice Look, big numbers in the stat blocks, straight forward to play. Brute force.

I noticed that alot of players who love WarMachine grudgingly admit that Hordes plays a little better.

WarMachine jacks are limited by available focus.
Hordes Warbeasts tend to do more per turn.

I own and enjoy both, they are both great

**Voodoo Boyz**

Hah, now you're making me reconsider what to start with, as I'm indecisive as hell sometimes.

Problem is that I really like the Khador models, which is why I'm leaning towards them so much. From what I'm reading the models I like the most are pretty decent: Iron Fang Pikemen, Man-o-War, the Drakun solo, and almost all the jacks are sweet and I can be pretty happy running with two of them.

Circle may be cool and I may pick up the Hordes book along with the Khador starter set on Sat. At the very least it'll be good to know what units can do what from that side of the game.

**RussWakelin**

Great stuff guys.

I notice a few comments about Hordes > WM or WM > Hordes. My experience is they are both balanced, but in different ways.

Basically, Hordes feels stronger in the early game because of how all beasts can generate fury, the casters have plenty of animus' to choose from, and there are plenty of beasts to transfer damage to so it is difficult to get an early warlock kill.

WM meanwhile is trying to manage a limited focus pool across a lot of jacks.

However... if the WM player can get the Hordes player into a battle of attrition, the WM player will eventually have a huge advantage. This is because as 'jacks die the WM warcaster becomes more powerful, as he/she can keep all their focus for themselves.

However, as warbeasts die, the Warlock starts to feel the hurt. First he starts loosing his animus choices, then as more beasts go down it becomes more difficult to generate enough furry a turn to keep the warlock full of fury to cast. And finally as beast are damaged/destroyed you run out of places to transfer damage.

If it gets down to one on one Warlock vs Warcaster, (i.e. Nothing else is left) the Warcaster will have the advantage every time.

Also, in WM it is very easy (and quite often tempting) to build an infantry heavy list with minimal Warjacks with an eye toward letting your warcaster have all the focus for himself.

In Hordes, this is much more difficult and risky. If you go warbeast light and your opponent kills your 1-2 beasts, your caster will run short on furry soon.

One discovery our group is making is that Hordes armies are all very good at killing infantry, which is causing WM players to often re-think the "infantry only" list design.

Welcome to the Iron Kingdoms & Happy Gaming

**malfred**

Hordes list = fewer hordes
Warmachine list = fewer warmachines

**syr8766**

It is funny how that worked out, isn't it?

**Nurglitch**

Mind you, a Dire Troll looks like it could horde all on its own.

Speaking of which, this is my first time posting here. I've been looking at the Legion of Everblight, and the warbeasts are really growing on me (well, not the Carnivean, but the Harriers and Shredders). From what I've gleaned so far they're fast and fragile (which is good, my first 40k army was Dark Eldar), and they have models I like. I have a question though, to help me plan and budget:

How big are Warmachine/Hordes armies? I'm not talking about points values, but about numbers of miniatures. It's cool that you can have a balanced force just by buying a box (really, it should be standard...), but I'm curious where things go from there.

**malfred**

Depends on the warlock of your choice. As mentioned,
Warmachine armies trend towards infantry and Hordes
armies trend toward warbeasts.

Choice of warlock will change a number of things:

Which warbeasts you want.
How many you need.
Type/number of infantry units.

HEre's an introduction on the battlecollege.

What is the Legion of Everblight like?

Where do I start with the Legion?

The best place to start Legion is the starter box. The Carnivean and Shredders will see a lot of play no matter which Warlock you use, and Lylyth gives a great introduction to how Legion is played. A Forsaken is a great second buy for any Legion player as it is a great fury manager and a deadly weapon. From here it is really up to preference. Blighted Swordsmen are especially good and can add a great edge to any Legion army.

Similarly, Raptors are an amazing unit to field with unparalleled speed and hitting capability. With only a small point difference from Swordsmen, you can field a full unit in 500 points. Raptors give melee and range options to an army and as such, provide more options.

A good second Warcaster really depends on your preferences.

Thagrosh - Hard hitting powerhouse that can easily support your army with his spells. His feat allows for you to bring back a dead Warbeast. This works great with a Carnivean that has taken a huge beating. He is also a very stable caster. I recommend him for a second or third caster.

Vayl - This is the frail Legion Warlock. She has a huge amount of Fury and specializes in supporting your army. She has no melee ability, but has great magic power. She needs Warbeasts around to keep her alive.

Rhyas - Very agile melee based Warlock. She is a true ninja with a slew of abilities that protect her from many enemy attacks. She can run through enemy lines, and can easily assassinate an enemy Warlock or Warcaster in one turn. She is an infantry based Warlock, but I recommend that you use a Carnivean and a shredder with her, as she makes Carniveans deadly with her Rapport spell and benifits from Tenacity greatly. If you get Rhyas, I suggest you get Saeryn as they have great synergies at 1000 points.

Saeryn - The true support Warlock. By herself, Saeryn can't do much damage. She can however mess around with your opponents flow. When you add an army under her, she becomes exceptional. She specializes in screwing around with all aspects of your opponents game play, from moving Fury around, to blocking charge lanes and even denying Warlocks damage transfers. She takes practice to use, but is a top tier Warlock. Again, if you get Saeryn, get Rhyas.

http://battlecollege.wikispaces.com/Legion

I'd say that the lists I plan out for Circle typically have
3-5 beasts, 1-2 units, 1-2 solos and a warlock.

**Voodoo Boyz**

Speaking of which, what's the "normal" game pointed at? 500 or 750?

**malfred**

Depends on the area.

500 points is more normal than 750, but some areas like to
play 750 so that everyone has access to epic warcasters.

**Voodoo Boyz**

Well now I see just how rough it can be trying to fit stuff in AND take 2 Jacks at 500 Points.

I figured for Infantry I wanted the Pikemen, Widowmakers, and if I could swing it Man-o-War. And then I wanted the Dragoon, because he's such a badass model (please tell me he doesn't suck).

Yeah, I'm probably trying to fit too much into 500 points, but right now I'm just playing with Army Builder to see what's possible with the models I like.

**malfred**

The Drakhun is very awesome.

Which Man o War are you fitting? I think Demo Corps do
more damage.

**Voodoo Boyz**

Well I'm not completely sure, I actually managed to write up a list where every thing fit finally, but I was using Iron Fang Pikemen and not Man-o-War.

Skorsha
Juggernaut
Destroyer
Iron Fang Pikemen (6)
Widowmakers
Drakun + Dismount option

I could swap the Jugg for a Kodiak, which also looks nice and I've read good things about it. The Pikemen could be swapped for Man-o-War Demo Corps with either config of jacks.

OR

I could just buy the battle box, run the Jugg, and then use the Normal Man-o-War instead of the Pikemen.

I've been reading Battle College and apparently the Demo Corps do a ton of damage but are a lot easier to kill. The Pikemen are much faster, so I don't know exactly what to choose.

Of course, I probably should be just playing Battle Box games for a while.

**quozl**

Where I play, 750 is completely the norm, and 500 is fairly rare.

As, I think it was PPS_Kevin said, 750 points is the 500 point game you always wanted to play.

All your suggested options sound fine Voodoo Boyz. You're not going to regret owning any of those models, and you can change things round when you want to.

**Voodoo Boyz**

Well I've got my Khador Battle Box and it looks like a game setup for weds.

Been going though and re-reading the rules and then looking through all the Characters/Units in Prime and after reading what spells do from the casters I looked at, and I haven't said the word "WOW" so many times when reading a models abilities in game. Skorsha is pretty damn good when she gets in close, knocking everyone down in the AOE with her spell or even her feat causing stationary targets, that's just sick. I was also looking at Vlad as something to use later on and it's another case of being surprised at the abilities these guys have.

**malfred**

Remember they nerfed Sorscha so it's LOS AND ctrl area.

**Voodoo Boyz**

malfred wrote:Remember they nerfed Sorscha so it's LOS AND ctrl area.

I have Prime Remix only and I'm just starting, so for me it's always going to be that way. It's not a nerf if I didn't play with it any other way! :p

I was just staggered at the spell where you take the POW 12 hit with an AOE of 4, but you don't need to take wounds to have everything in the AOE get knocked down (ie. you don't have to cause wounds). To me, that seems huge.

**malfred**

Remember that Stryker has Earthquake AND an arc node
for knockdown ickiness.

**Voodoo Boyz**

Well it's good to know that she's not the only one with stuff that good.

Now my next magic question: Iron Fang Pikemen or Man-o-War (either variety)?

The IFP look like they bring some speed to my otherwise slow options, and I've read that their Unit Attachment is pretty badass. But the Man-o-War look so cool, and have 8 Damage per guy and much beefier stats. Of course I have to like the look of the regular MoW instead of the Demo corps, but either would be cool.

I'm not buying anything yet, I just like getting opinions on stuff. I will likely try both options out eventually, but since I'm having trouble deciding between them I figure it'd be nice to hear what others think.