Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

So I was curious about the sorts of tactical uses to which the Gift of Chaos could be put. Aside from allowing one to do horrible things to big tough targets in combat, it seems like it would be really handy for helping a Sorcerer or Aspiring Sorcerer clean up hordes of troops like Orks or Rippers or Guardsmen. Assuming that you were dead set on taking this power, what would you combine it with, army-wise, and what would you try to do with it while playing a game?

I was under the impression that the man use of the power is to spawnify hidden powerfists and enemy characters. But mostly hidden powerfists.

Having not used the power I couldn't say for sure though :S

- Salvage

That is one tactical use of Gift of Chaos. Any others?

What's the exact text of Gift of Chaos? I remember it being used on me once last edition, and it being done wrongly, but I can't recall what the proper use is, or if it changed.

There aren't alot of strategies involving GoC anymore because the big use you can't do anymore.

Possessed of Tzeentch + Normal CSM to start with, followed by enemy models once you have enough spawn. It was a horrible tactic to have to face, especially if you had a close combat oriented army.

Now, it kills big stuff on a 6. Same as before, but you can't spam it out 5 or 6 times so it's nowhere near as powerful.

Wehrkind: Basically, to paraphrase, you pick a target at the beginning of your turn and take a Psychic test. If you pass the test and the target is within 6" then you roll 1D6. If the result is greater than the target's Toughness (or you roll a natural 6) then it is removed as a casualty no saving throws allowed. If you have a Spawn model available you can replace the victim with the Spawn model under the Chaos players control (it's worth 40 victory points). If the victim was in base to base contact with a friendly model the Spawn engages them in combat.

yeah...
I've used this alot... and although for me i seems to work much less than it should...
But at the same time When a squads leader turns bad and attacks his own that's a big swing in your favourin combat...

I don't think there are any tactics for it other than use it as much as you can!

yeah..

Does it have to be an IC or anything?

What worries me is using it within 6" at the beginning of your turn. That requires a bit more luck in execution than I would like in an ability.

Probably the best use would be picking out power fists or other high price Sgt's in assaulting units. That's the only way I see handing your opponant a bit of flesh and bone worth 40 points is really good, since most high points units are either high T (hard to remove) or Sgt's/HQ's with lots of bling.

If you put a Sorc in some of your shooty squads, it might be a nice way to blunt an assault. If nothing else, if the fellow lived through the initial charge, he could make the attacker pay pretty heavily for the loss.
Alternately, a sorc on a bike with a few followers might be fun if you could run them around the back, getting amongst shooting squads. Gift one squad, then move and shoot the other before charging. End result would be two squads tied up by virtue of on squad's actions.

By in large though, I don't see it being all that great, only annoying at best.

The fact that it happens at the beginning of the turn hurts pretty bad. Pretty much only going to get to spawnify something if the sorcerer survived combat from the enemy's turn before, or she gambled and failed to blast the sorcerer right in front of her troops.

Wasn't it during the shooting phase last edition?

- Salvage

Yea I think it was the shooting phase, but it was within 2" or some such.

can you cast in your enemy's assault phase? It makes a good second power for a tzeentch sorc.

don't forget those pesky eldar exarchs with their squad powers.

every army has something it can annoyingly kill, I think.

Nope, it's got to be at the start of your own turn. On the bright side it means that you can Gift someone with Chaos and then run in the opposite direction.

I like the idea of sticking my Sorcerer in an assault squad and getting it stuck in, or maybe giving it some wings to flap around with.

Anyone know where a fella can find some cheap plastic swan wings? Pegasus Knights maybe?

I used Gift of Chaos a lot in 3rd edition. But it has changed a lot since then because of the models that can use it, and the thrall wizard is no longer available for casting it twice.

The models that can use it have been greatly reduced. Only a Sorcerer, a Demon Prince and a TS Squad Sorcerer can use it now. For those models, other powers are just better.

For the HQ choices, Warptime is almost a must, and of course Lash is a good power. Both Doombolt and BoC are great in combination with Warptime if you are a Tzeentch Sorcerer. Both of those shooting powers combine well with Warptime.

WoC is a good power for a Flying HQ to do a lot of damage.

For the Squad leader you will either want Doombolt or Warptime.

Gift of Chaos is kind of the odd man out. It is hard to use (6” before movement), hard to get to work because it normally needs a 5 or a 6 to go off, and I think it is one of the more expensive powers.

So I would say you are better off with one of the other powers and killing things conventionally for a greater effect. It will be very rare when everything comes together to make GoC worthwhile.

Blackmoor: You're missing the point. The point is not to scratch you head and simply take another psychic power, the point is to discuss the tactical uses of the Gift of Chaos. I mean, yeah, it looks hard to use, so what? We know that. Given that it's hard to use, and not hugely reliable, what can it be used to accomplish?

Nurglitch wrote:Blackmoor: You're missing the point. The point is not to scratch you head and simply take another psychic power, the point is to discuss the tactical uses of the Gift of Chaos.

Find the biggest, baddest model within 6" and hope you roll a '6'.

The limitation to using it at the beginning of the turn is really what kills it for me. If it was still used in the shooting phase I'd be tempted to give it a whirl. As it stands you're forced to react to your opponent's movement, and/or use it only in a protracted assault.

Blackmoor: How terribly insightful. No wonder you have a reputation as a tactician.

Mannahnin: Perhaps you aren't forced to react to your enemy's movement. It might be the case that you could either force the enemy to close with you, or simply give the opposing player motivation to do so. Likewise if a protracted assault is necessary, it seems that Gift of Chaos could be used where the Chaos player is not expecting a single-turn assault to work, such as giving the power to the Aspiring Sorcerer of a unit of Thousand Suns, or giving it to a Tzeentchian Winged Daemon Prince alongside Doom Bolt or Bolt of Change.

After seeing the havoc that a spawn can wreak on low S models, I'd have to say that the best use of the power is dealing with eldar, IG, tau, etc gun lines; or to deal with tyranid gaunt tarpits.

Of course, the spawn isn't going to do much that your sorceror and his friends couldn't do on their own, but against S3 models, spawns are quite effective.

It occurs to me that taking a small squad of nurglings, specifically to turn into spawn, might not be a bad idea. It'd certainly make people think some, which can only be a good thing.

Hmm. I think you have a good point about using Gift of Chaos against low S and T things. Howling Banshees, in particular, seem like they might object. Likewise it might help deal with a stubborn mob of Ork Boyz that your troops can't kill fast enough.

With regards to your second idea, that of toting along something weak and expendable to cast Gift of Chaos on, apparently that's not allowed - it's specifically an enemy model that can be affected and turned into Spawn.

That might not be a bad use for the ability, putting it on a winged Sorc to use as a "fixer" for assaults that are taking too long, or to pop into a gun line, Spawn a guy, then assault another unit.
The main problem I see with that is that the assault has by the time you use it been likely going on for 2-3 turns, 2 if you started the assault and moved your Sorc nearby just in case, 3 if your opponant assaults, you move the sorc, then another turn of assault, then you get to use the ability. Best case scenario, it is only one turn of assault because someone charged your unit, and the sorc just happened to be REALLY close.

The trouble I see there is that any unit that wants to assault you probably is T4 or better, save for Eldar, so most things you want to use the power on are 5+ rolls.

So options I see are:
1) Rhino rush sorc with 1kSons. Pop out near IG/Tau gunline, shoot, assuming they don't move, pop a spawn.

2) Populate your gun line with the occaisional sorc, and when assaulted, hope for a 5+ next turn.

3) Winged sorc hoping to be in the right place at the right time when you expect men to charge say heavy weapons squads of yours.

I have to say that I agree with Blackmoor though, that there is no solid way to use it. It is such a skill of opportunity that it is nearly impossible to make happen.
Idea 1 suffers if the IG or Tau decide to merely walk back a few inches and rapid fire you. Next turn, no spawn.
Idea 2 suffers due to having to spend the points on abilities that might never come into play, but if you spread them around cleverly it might work out, say 2 1k sons units in a 5 unit line or something.
Idea 3 seems like you are holding back your sorc from doing something more useful by putting him places "just in case" but then if he is shooty it might not be too much of a detriment.

There are very few situations where this power would serve you better than warp time, or just relying on your force weapon.

If you are dead set on using it, perhaps for the sake of being different:
It would be best used in conjunction with a very resilient unit (like plague marines) stuck in combat in support of the sorceror. Use the tough meatshield to protect the sorc while you try very slowly and inefficiently to remove specific threats from the combat. When you do finally manage to succeed at killing a model with it (that wouldn't have been killed that turn anyways), you can come back here and tell us all of your exploits in prevailing over groupthink! Huzzah!

if you're in melee but only in base contact with one model could you spawn it to escape and assault something else?

Blackmoor wrote:

Nurglitch wrote:Blackmoor: You're missing the point. The point is not to scratch you head and simply take another psychic power, the point is to discuss the tactical uses of the Gift of Chaos.

Find the biggest, baddest model within 6" and hope you roll a '6'.

Been there, done that.

Know how upset a player of a Slaaneshi Daemon Prince gets when he lashes a unit of T-Sons out of cover, doesn't kill the whole thing, then gets turned into a spawn in the beginning of the next turn?

I do.


Eric

corinth wrote:if you're in melee but only in base contact with one model could you spawn it to escape and assault something else?

For that to happen you'd have to be locked with JUST one model, I'd guess. The previous turn combatants would have been able to pile in to base, so having just 1 model in base would mean it's the only one left.

In which case, no combatants = free to do whatever. Including move.

- Salvage

corinth wrote:if you're in melee but only in base contact with one model could you spawn it to escape and assault something else?

Good question. I think the answer is a conditional yes.
Obviously, a T-Sons Sorc who still has his squad could not do this.

An IC or DP, however... Since they are individual units... If they're not in b2b contact, then they're not locked in.
I think that would work.

Kind of a rare scenario, really... not sure that you'd want to waste a slot on it instead of a better power... but that's not what this thread is about.

Yeah. I think that could do it.

Eric

Boss_Salvage:

The previous turn combatants would have been able to pile in to base, so having just 1 model in base would mean it's the only one left.

That depends. The diagram shows everyone not in btb piling in, but the text says only those who are unengaged pile in. If the latter is to apply, then there could well be cases where a Sorc or DP fighting alone would find himself engaged with a squad but only in btb with one mode, which he could Spawn to escape.

Oh. Really thought the call was to make base contact wherever possible, not just be within 2" of somebody who is. I can see what you say happening if so, particularly with smaller units (starting or having been killed down).

- Salvage

You could use it as a potential way to let a single unit engage three other units in a single turn.

If course, this requires the caster to be in assault as your turn begins against something big and mean, preferably a monstrous creature such as a fex or a C'tan. Firstly, use loaded dice or pray to whatever god your army worships for luck. If the power works, you're free to move during your turn and use the caster and spawn to assault two different units. Three units being taken care of by a ~ 140 point HQ choice, not bad.
Of course, if you fail and are stuck with the monstrous creature, hope it was a shooty fex or else you're gonna be in trouble.

Alternatively, as many have pointed out, the main use of the power is defensive. It's an excellent power to use to snipe hidden fists or ICs, keeping heavy weapons out of harm's way. It has potential to protect a daemon prince from fists and if you can afford it you might give it a try, although I'd personally just get warptime for a DP as it tends to benefit you more. On the other hand with orks gathering popularity and those pesky str 9 and 10 nob and warboss claws, the prince is going to need something to make sure he wont bite the dust. Perhaps time will unveil the true uses of the power as more codexes are released. Who knows, the new daemon codex might be full of hidden claw-like powerfist things, and daemonhunters may get something totally counterable by GoC.

I was thinking today that a Sorcerer with the Mark of Tzeentch, a Familiar, Warp-time, and Gift of Chaos would be damned fine value. The Mark of Tzeentch gives the Sorcerer the ability to use two Psychic powers a turn, and enhances his survivability, the Familiar lets him load up on two powers, and the powers complement each other in an assault situation.

Might work. But it's a lot of points in a non-scoring character. If I were doing it I'd give him the bike too so he had mobility (essential for any HtH character) and improved Toughness.

I like Eric's idea, actually. Assuming a relatively shooty army build, with oblits and other units providing anti-tank shots into the army elsewhere, putting Gift on a Tzeentch sorcerer might work out. The Tzeentch units would be your front line, trying to get close enough to rapidfire and acting as a powerfist and power weapon-resistant front line vs enemy assault. If/when someone does assault them (like the aforementioned Lash prince), they are very likely to survive for at least one round, and have pretty decent odds of surviving three rounds, depending on what they're fighting. This gives you very good chances of getting off Gift once, and decent chances of a second opportunity.

It's rolling over the Toughness that's the really annoying part. Having only a 1/3rd chance of actually affecting a SM vet Sgt or Ork Nob is not great, and a 1/6 chance of killing a lash prince is not something to build a strategy around.

Usually I'd want to put Bolt of Change on a Sorcerer to allow the squad a chance to bust tanks or dreads that come close, or Wind of Chaos to synergize better with their ability to kill well-armored infantry at close range. The opportunity cost of losing one of these powers to take the comparatively unreliable and difficult to use Gift is what makes it so difficult to justify experimenting with Gift.