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Sorry, but why does being comparatively unreliable make it difficult to justify experiment with the Gift of Chaos? I mean, isn't the point of experimenting with stuff about finding out how it works, not prejudging it? Besides, what's the worst that can happen? You lose a game?

From the perspective of a player who has limited time/opportunities for 40k (I'm lucky if I get one game of it a week, nowadays), and is generally trying to win the ones he plays.

Pardon me for not including the caveat.

How does being a player with limited time to play, and trying to win prevent you from experimenting with taking Gift of Chaos? I would think that the point of experimenting with that power would be trying to win with it.

Certainly.

But if, within the context of the army/units I use/own, Gift of Chaos seems on analysis to represent a significant impairment to my chance of winning, it is less likely that I will choose to experiment with it, as opposed to other options which are more attractive. Especially if I'm prepping for a GT or other big tournament. Right now I'm trying out terminators, because my pre-experimentation analysis suggests that they may work; plus I like the models, and they fit into the fluff / concept I have for the army.

Okay, so what's your analysis and how does it conclude that taking Gift of Chaos significantly impairs your chance of winning? I'm curious to see if this analysis can be universalized or whether its conclusion is relative to your strategy.

You've already been given many reasons.

Nurglitch wrote:Okay, so what's your analysis and how does it conclude that taking Gift of Chaos significantly impairs your chance of winning? I'm curious to see if this analysis can be universalized or whether its conclusion is relative to your strategy.

Well, you’ve already read part of it in my previous posts.

The range and time of usage limitations make it a challenge to use at all unless you’re in a protracted combat, or unless the enemy charges you and you both a) survive the first round and b) are still within 6” of them on your turn. This makes it substantially trickier to use than powers like Warp Time, Wind of Chaos, or Lash.

The odds of Gift actually working, assuming I successfully cast it, are 50/50 against the better targets (like Harlequins), and substantially worse (33.33%) against more common foes like Marines, as well as other good competitive armies like Necrons and Orks. Those are not the kind of odds I like to count on.

I don’t play Tzeentch, and haven’t yet taken a Familiar with my Sorcerer, so the opportunity cost has been to not take any other psychic power if I wanted to try Gift of Chaos with my Daemon Prince or Sorcerer models. I find Warp Time, Wind of Chaos, and Lash to be very useful, and to make my psyker (and by extension my army) stronger.

Warp Time makes the Prince a very reliable killer, munching through non-horde squads quickly, and fighting on even or better terms with other big tough single models like Avatars, Necron Destroyer Lords, Greater Daemons, or Tyranid Monstrous Creatures. It also can make a Sorcerer a decent HtH character, while he’s pretty mediocre without it.

Wind of Chaos allows the psyker to cripple or kill roughly half a unit (with good positioning, and I always take Flight, which enables best placement of the template). This one appeals greatly to me, as my preferred mode of play is sort of a strategic battle of attrition, playing to the mission by destroying enemy scoring units/preventing them from being where they need to be to fulfill the mission. I like having lots of scoring units, and I like having lots of units in general for greater maneuver flexibility, so I like inexpensive units, and I don’t like to spend a lot of points on non-scoring units. If a non-scoring Sorcerer can take power which allows him to cripple or kill enemy scoring units, I find him to be more generally useful than otherwise.

Lash has all sorts of tactical applications which I’m just starting to explore in practice.

So the summary for Gift’s drawbacks (the things which cause it to not see use in competitive lists):

A) It’s not very reliable
B) It’s more difficult to get into position to be used at all
C) Other powers give more bang for the buck

Now, what I might try at some point, if I feel that the points spent aren’t going to be too much of a handicap, is giving a Prince or a Sorcerer the Mark of Tzeentch, and both Gift and either Wind or Warp. This could be a fun thing to try out, and would be handicapping the army less, as the model would still retain the more useful power. Wind of Chaos would probably be the more complementary choice, as it can only be used when not engaged in combat, and Gift will mostly only be used when the model is engaged, so there’s less chance of being in a position where I could use either and thus Gift just goes unused due to inferior utility.

Yeah...
Getting out of Base to base escaping.
Sorry i don't have my codex with me now, but Doesn't the spawn form a unit with the character?
then if the spawn is still in btb then they are both still engaged?

I think this is one of the more fun chaos powers and can have a serious moral impact on your opponant if he loses one of his better models in the squad and your up a spawn to boot!

It's awesome when it works two or three times in a game!

yeah...

Thanks Mannahnin. Regarding reliability, I think it might help to compare Gift of Chaos to the other powers. Holding the psychic test equal, how likely are the other powers to affect their targets?

Against T3 Gift of Chaos will likely happen 50% of the time. Against T4, 33% of the time. Against T5+, 16% of the time. It'll Spawnify a C'tan as easily as a Carnifex as a Wraithlord as a Daemon Prince. And it's just 1D6, no saves allowed, invulnerable or otherwise. It doesn't affect vehicles. It'll also only affect one model, unless you have the model to create a 40pt model with a 24" charge radius out of your enemy.

Against anything the Wind of Chaos is a straight up 50% chance of wounding/glancing, allowing invulnerable saves and only doing one wound. Still, it's a template attack so it hits automatically and has 2" more range. You're more likely to do damage than Gift of Chaos, so long as you're not engaged, and there's more than one target sitting around within assault distance of you. No chance of killing any W2+ model outright unless it's been previously wounded.

Nurgle's Rot is a S3 AP- hit. And it hits everything within 6". So 50% vs T3, 33% vs T4, 16% vs T5 and T6. Only one wound each, but it can affect many models so long as the Sorcerer isn't engaged. No chance of killing any W2+ model outright unless it's been previously wounded. Oddly the safest place to be is engaged with the Sorcerer. Perhaps because it's difficult to give you the Rot when his/her head is being smashed in.

Then there's the Bolt of Change, which is something like an assault Multi-Melta, and Doom Bolt. Both have far greater ranges that the previous powers, all roughly equivalent. But unlike Warp Time and Gift of Chaos, and like the previous two, these can only be used when otherwise un-engaged. And you have to roll to hit, roll to wound, and they allow invulnerable and cover saves, if not armour saves.

Doombolt would wound T4 Sv3+ models 33% per attack die, T4 S2+ 6% per die, T5 Sv3+ models 22% per die, T6-7 Sv3+ models 11% per die, and T8 not at all. So roughly a 4% chance of doing three wounds to a T4 Sv3+ model without invulnerable saving throws.

Bolt of Change would wound T4-6 models 56%, but only one die. T7 models 44%, T8 33%, T9 22%, and T10 11%. It could cause Instant Death to a model with T4 or less, but only one wound to T5+. Dead handy against vehicles though, with its AP1 and 24" range.

Regarding getting it into position to be of use, people seem to be ignoring the fact that the Sorcerer does not have to be engaged to use the power, and that it can be used on any model within 6". It can be used whether the Sorcerer is engaged at the start of the turn or not. Doombolt, Wind of Chaos, Bolt of Change, Lash of Submission, and Nurgle's Rot all require that the Sorcerer not be engaged. Wind of Chaos and Nurgle's Rot both require the Sorcerer to be really close to the enemy.

Like Warp Time it is not a shooting power so a Tzeentchian Sorcerer could use it in combination with another power that turn, and like Warp Time it is a general power that any Sorcerer can take.

In combination with Warp Time a Tzeentchian Sorcerer could create a Spawn in a nearby unit, then cast Warp Time on himself and charge that unit (or another nearby).

In combination with Wind of Chaos or Nurgle's Rot a Sorcerer would have a psychic power besides his Force Weapon to use if engaged in combat, which would be handy because he'd need to be just as close as these powers to use it.

In combination with Doom Bolt, Bolt of Change, and Lash of Submission, particularly the last one, it can be used as an alternate power for when the Sorcerer gets jumped, or for taking down monsters that were previously Lashed into position (move, Lash, assault, survive, Spawn). With the Bolt of Change in particular you get the bonus to your Sorcerer's invulnerable save to he'll be around come the start of your turn.

Speaking of bang for your buck, the Gift of Chaos is 30pts (although I don't think I'd recommend it as a primary Psychic Powers, but in combination with other powers as described above) plus the Familiar gets paid off the minute you create a bonus 40 point model. There's the possibility (outside though it may be) that you can add a free 240 points to your army by using the Gift every turn (more more likely just 40 pts, but that pays for itself).

Short version: This power is only useful as a secondary power. Gift, warptime, and a force weapon are the only three powers that a Tzeentch Sorcerer can use as his 2nd power per turn.

I think the best chance to use this would be a Tzeentch Sorcerer with Gift, Warptime, and Wind, on a bike or in termi armor and teleporting in.

Interesting thought: This power is used and Reserves enter play "at the start of the Turn". I believe you can deepstrike in a sorc and then use this power after he lands. They both happen at the same time, who chooses the order of "at the start of the turn" events?

Also something I think everyone is overlooking, each spawn is a scoring unit.

Nurglitch wrote:Speaking of bang for your buck, the Gift of Chaos is 30pts (although I don't think I'd recommend it as a primary Psychic Powers, but in combination with other powers as described above) plus the Familiar gets paid off the minute you create a bonus 40 point model. There's the possibility (outside though it may be) that you can add a free 240 points to your army by using the Gift every turn (more more likely just 40 pts, but that pays for itself).

Please don't pad the discussion with obviously flawed arguments like this. You admit that the chance is remote, but that doesn't excuse you from implying that means you are getting good "bang for your buck" At best you can use this power about 4 times at 50% chance to use so you are getting 80 points of spawn, and the cost is the opportunity cost of another power, you had to spend your expensive sorcerers time using this power. At least include the cost of a mark of Tzeentch and a familiar in your cost analysis. Counting the points you are killing by sniping sergeants this power is worthwhile if and only if you are very confident you will be in the circumstances to use it.

Nurglitch wrote:... unless you have the model to create a 40pt model with a 24" charge radius out of your enemy.

A spawn has a charge radius of 3d6+1d3 because of slow and purposeful. 12" average 21" at best.

Nurglitch wrote:Still, [Wind of Chaos is] a template attack so it hits automatically and has 2" more range.

Except you can use it after moving, thats 8"+ more range in most people's opinion. Probably 14" more range if you have wings or a bike.

Nurglitch wrote:Nurgle's Rot ... can affect many models so long as the Sorcerer isn't engaged.

Rot can specifically be used even if engaged.

Nurglitch wrote:Wind of Chaos and Nurgle's Rot both require the Sorcerer to be really close to the enemy.

Laughable that you mention this as if Gifts was longer range then these two.

Spawn are never scoring units.

AnSteWe: Well, now everyone knows I've never played Nurgle's Rot before! Or read the rule too carefully...

Now, the fact that it is unlikely that using the Gift of Chaos will net you an extra 240 points of troops (assuming 6-7 rounds) does not detract from the fact that the Gift of Chaos gives you good bang for your buck. My argument, such as it is, is an argument based on what I'll call expected value. If you are going to argue that you get good bang for your buck, argument by expected value is a very good form of argument. You weigh the utility of all possible outcomes against their likelihood of coming true. One cannot merely discard a possibility because it is unlikely, and indeed where the utility of various outcomes is cumulative you usually need to weight the expected value again by the expected utility (in effect squaring the expected utility) because you need to account for the increasing utility of knock-on effects.

As such my argument is that given the range of values from the highly unlikely maximum to the likely median (goes off once in a 6 turn game for 1 40 point Spawn) to the implied minimum (which doesn't need to be stated because it's automatically 0), one does in fact get quite the bang for one's buck. One gets quite the bang for one's buck because, on average the power pays for itself with a free Spawn, and can increase the size of your force by 40 points a turn!

One does not need to include the cost of a Familiar and a Mark of Tzeentch in the analysis because this analysis is not restricted to models with Marks of Tzeentch or Marks of Tzeentch and Familiars, as these extra factors are both extraneous to the effect described and add their own advantages to their costs. No point in over-complicating things.

One of the important things about expected value (and expected multiplicative value) is that it assesses more than mere reliability. One does not need to be confident that something will happen, just that if it happens then you will have chosen the best combination of reliability and effect. Bang for the buck, so to speak.

skyth is right, Spawn are not scoring units. However they are Beasts. That means they can Move 1D6 (well, 2D6 and pick the highests, but let's ignore that for a second), Fleet 1D6, and then 1D6x2. So yes, a 24" charge radius, averaging 14".

About Winds of Chaos, the interesting thing about the concept that people sometimes call "effective range" (movement + range) is that its maximum is always under the assumption of moving directly towards the enemy. If you can use a 6-8" weapon it's likely that the survivors can assault the shooter because you move into range. Instead, rather like the Jetbike/Jetpack assault moves, a Gift of Chaos user can put some distance between him/her and whatever did or did not get zapped.

That's something interesting about the Gift of Chaos that I don't think has been fully explored here (yet, people have made a start), is that the power is cast and then it's possible to have three full phases of doing something else and moving in another direction. A Sorcerer could use the Gift of Chaos, move, shoot a Plasma Pistol (or possibly use a shooting power), and assault (possibly use Warp Time).

You could, for example, cast Gift of Chaos on a unit, Spawn one of its models, move your Sorcerer around the side of the unit, shoot, and then assault to cut off escape routes. Or just stand by the unit that is now engaged with the Fearless Spawn, summon Daemons with a Personal Icon, and add another Spawn to the melee.

I'm just throwing ideas out here. Thinking aloud, you might say.

Nurglitch wrote:AnSteWe: Well, now everyone knows I've never played Nurgle's Rot before! Or read the rule too carefully...

Now, the fact that it is unlikely that using the Gift of Chaos will net you an extra 240 points of troops (assuming 6-7 rounds) does not detract from the fact that the Gift of Chaos gives you good bang for your buck. My argument, such as it is, is an argument based on what I'll call expected value. If you are going to argue that you get good bang for your buck, argument by expected value is a very good form of argument. You weigh the utility of all possible outcomes against their likelihood of coming true. One cannot merely discard a possibility because it is unlikely, and indeed where the utility of various outcomes is cumulative you usually need to weight the expected value again by the expected utility (in effect squaring the expected utility) because you need to account for the increasing utility of knock-on effects.

As such my argument is that given the range of values from the highly unlikely maximum to the likely median (goes off once in a 6 turn game for 1 40 point Spawn) to the implied minimum (which doesn't need to be stated because it's automatically 0), one does in fact get quite the bang for one's buck. One gets quite the bang for one's buck because, on average the power pays for itself with a free Spawn, and can increase the size of your force by 40 points a turn!

One does not need to include the cost of a Familiar and a Mark of Tzeentch in the analysis because this analysis is not restricted to models with Marks of Tzeentch or Marks of Tzeentch and Familiars, as these extra factors are both extraneous to the effect described and add their own advantages to their costs. No point in over-complicating things.

One of the important things about expected value (and expected multiplicative value) is that it assesses more than mere reliability. One does not need to be confident that something will happen, just that if it happens then you will have chosen the best combination of reliability and effect. Bang for the buck, so to speak.

I was using expected value, I didn't think I would have to spell things out so clearly but here we go. My expectation is that you will have 0-5 chances to use the power (the chance your enemy gets within 6" of your Psyker on their first turn is negligible) and that against toughness 3 you have a 50% chance to gain a 40 point unit and do X points of damage by killing a sergeant. The gain is (0+5)/2 * 50% * 40+X = 50+1.25X points advantage gained over the course of a game. This is ignoring the fact that a 40 point unit gained on the last turn is "worth" less then 40 points and a 40 point unit assault type unit starting in base with the enemy is worth more then 40 points.

The cost of the power is not 30 points. Part of the sorcerers 100 points are spent on the fact that he is a powerful psyker. How many points exactly are debatable but this is the EXACT reason most people pass on this power. Opportunity cost. Other powers are better in general. The reason I mentioned the points cost of a familiar and mark of tzeentch is because you will NEVER see this power used on a psyker who doesn't have these extras. It is clearly a bad choice to have this as your only power.

Nurglitch wrote:skyth is right, Spawn are not scoring units. However they are Beasts. That means they can Move 1D6 (well, 2D6 and pick the highests, but let's ignore that for a second), Fleet 1D6, and then 1D6x2. So yes, a 24" charge radius, averaging 14".

My mistake on both points. [Edit: I've been playing fleet wrong, at least this thread taught me something] 2d6 pick the highest results in almost exactly 4.5" average. So a spawns charge is 24" max and 17" average.

Nurglitch wrote:About Winds of Chaos, the interesting thing about the concept that people sometimes call "effective range" (movement + range) is that its maximum is always under the assumption of moving directly towards the enemy. If you can use a 6-8" weapon it's likely that the survivors can assault the shooter because you move into range. Instead, rather like the Jetbike/Jetpack assault moves, a Gift of Chaos user can put some distance between him/her and whatever did or did not get zapped.

That's something interesting about the Gift of Chaos that I don't think has been fully explored here (yet, people have made a start), is that the power is cast and then it's possible to have three full phases of doing something else and moving in another direction. A Sorcerer could use the Gift of Chaos, move, shoot a Plasma Pistol (or possibly use a shooting power), and assault (possibly use Warp Time).

You could, for example, cast Gift of Chaos on a unit, Spawn one of its models, move your Sorcerer around the side of the unit, shoot, and then assault to cut off escape routes. Or just stand by the unit that is now engaged with the Fearless Spawn, summon Daemons with a Personal Icon, and add another Spawn to the melee.

I'm just throwing ideas out here. Thinking aloud, you might say.

I agree that the power is used at a weird time and most people only look at the disadvantageous side of that. But you have to have a really tight mass brawl for maneuvering like this to be important I think.

Btw, what do you think happens if the spawnified unit is not in base with a friend but the spawn is within 1" of an enemy when it appears. RAW the spawn cannot move until the assault phase and then it charges. Or do you think it starts in melee?

Nurglitch, the problem with this is that you aren't looking at the expected values of other powers. If you're only going to look at the returns Gift gives you, of course it will look rather good. Almost any offensive option in the game theoretically pays for itself if you assume you'll get to sue it the whole game--if it cost 25 points to give a BS5 IC a storm bolter, it would pay itself back over 6 turns of shooting at basic SMs. The figure is really only meaningful if you compare it with the expected returns of the powers you're giving up by taking Gift, an impossible task, however, since the potential kills and value of the kills of each power varies so greatly.

tegeus-Cromis: I thought I was looking at the expected values of other powers in the post where I thanked Mannahnin. Still, as AnSteWe suggests things need to be pointed out much more clearly and thus we need to show our work.

AnSteWe: To begin with I don't think the chance of being within the enemy during the first turn is negligible, and in neglecting it we will not have an accurate view of the expected value of Gift of Chaos.

But if we are going to simply judge the median expected value, and compare it to the median expected value of other powers, then I think we should be looking at T4. Really we should look at each case, T3, T4, T5-10, but I guess we're just just eyeballing it right now.

Furthermore judging the amount of damage done (X) by the Gift of Chaos would have to also account for the damage that the Spawn will do which cannot simply be its points value, so adding the Spawn's points value to the points value of whatever is killed will be adding apples to oranges (particularly since it seems that, as pointed out, a model killed or created partway through the game has its points value weighted by its effect on the game, which is why I proposed expected multiplicative value which accounts for longevity and late arrival).

The cost of Gift of Chaos is 30 points because the cost of the Sorcerer remains the same whether it chooses the Gift of Chaos or not. Saying that we cannot assume a Sorcerer with the Gift of Chaos because only a Sorcerer with a Familiar and/or the Mark of Tzeentch and another power is worth taking, in order to judge its efficacy is viscously circular reasoning. I would rather not pre-judge whether a Sorcerer with just the Gift of Chaos is worth taking or not before I assume that in order to compare to a Sorcerer with some other power, or combination of powers.

With regard to Fleet: I hope that I haven't given the impression that Fleet allows a Slow and Purposeful-like move instead of Shooting. The whole Spawn movement-per-turn (as opposed to movement-per-movement-phase) would be 2D6 choosing the highest plus 1D6 plus 2D6 choosing the highest and multiplying the result by 2.

In placing the Spawn the Gift of Chaos seems pretty clear in that only a model affected by Gift of Chaos that was in base to base contact with a friendly model will be engaged when converted to Spawn. Otherwise the Spawn is not engaged, and therefore not locked, and free to move, Fleet, and assault that turn. If it is not engaged when placed on the table, it should be placed so it is not within 1" of another model.

That raises a problem, though, of how to place a model on a 40mm base (actually slightly wider at the bottom...) where a 25mm base (also slight wider) where 1" away from other members of its unit. Probably a discussion for the rules forum, I think. I'll start a thread there.

Speaking of mass-brawls though, I can imagine other situations where a combat would last until the start of the Chaos Marine turn. A Tyranid Monstrous Creature charging a Chaos Marine unit that can't effectively harm it, for example, might well survive into the Chaos Marine player's turn. That suggests that one function of the Gift of Chaos might be to deter or simply mangle Tyranid Monstrous Creatures and enemy Daemon Princes - leave the Sorcerer skulking close behind a unit of something Fearless until a Hive Tyrant or Carnifex smashes into them, and then cast Gift of Chaos on that monster. Or give Gift of Chaos to the Aspiring Sorcerer of a unit of Thousand Suns and have him gift anything that tries to take them down in assault.

Indeed, I just played a game a few hours after my last post and my Tzeentch sorcerer was engaged by Dark Eldar in melee on my first turn.

He used gift of chaos and rolled

Clearly gifts is never useful...

I thought I was looking at the expected values of other powers in the post where I thanked Mannahnin.

No you didn't. How many points does it put you ahead by if you zap an LR with BoC? How many points if you toast a bunch of Marines with WoC? These are effective points gains just as real as the 40 pt gain you get when you create a spawn.

Of course, it's impossible to arrive at a meaningful answer, since you could be BoCing LRs or Trukks, GoCing a DP or a grot. That's why--and this is my point--tossing about the 40 pt figure, or potential 240 pt figure, simply isn't useful. We must look at something other than mere "point gains".

On point to make about Gift is that if you are thinking "I will use it against a unit I don't want to be in melee with, then scoot off to safety" you are forgetting that it's range is only 6", so unless you are in cover, your enemy consolidated but didn't make it the whole way, or your opponant is Slow and Purposeful, you already were charged.
Still, it is a good possibility, particularly in the "let's just end this combat now" range.

The range of the power is 6". There are usually only 6 turns in a game. Sooo.....assuming you pass your psychic test and can get within range...

T3 = 66% chance of spawning
T4 = 50% chance of spawning
T5 = 33% chance of spawning
T6 = 16% chance of spawning

Or, if you were planning on spawning that Carnifex, over 6 turns you could reasonably expect to spawn one.

As Tegeus and Blackmoor have said repeatedly, the other powers are much better. Especially Warp Time since you plan on being close anyway. There really isn't anything to figure out other than, run forward and pray for a 6.

You may or may not be able to do some nifty things with placement of the spawn, but if you're trying to assassinate a character it won't matter much, and if you're banking on ruining an assault, well a DP or Sorc' with Warp Time would be just as good running in there on his own.

Gift of Chaos is just not all that useful in light of your other choices.

AnSteWe: Sounds like Gift of Chaos is handy against Dark Eldar, just not when you fail your Psychic Test. By that standard all Psychic Powers are useless.

tegeus-Cromis: I was moreso talking about the expected value of causing damage considered in wounds rather than in points values: the points was context, as after all bang is only worth it at some price. Fortunately whitedragon is on topic.

Wehrkind: I think it's going too far to assume that just because a Sorcerer is in charge range means he can be. A Sorcerer behind another unit in charge range of, say, Genestealers, may not be involved in a multi-unit combat because there's not enough Genestealers to charge that unit and the Sorcerer.

whitedragon: Sure, you could reasonably expect to Spawn one Carnifex per game, on average. But if you get lucky you could spawn several, or even all six.

But whether the Gift of Chaos is strategically better than the other Psychic Powers is immaterial to this thread and this forum. Even if it is true and Gift of Chaos is a strategically better tool to have lying around, this forum is about tactics, about using the tools that are available. Strategy is the province of the army lists forum, and we can carry on this discussion of whether the Gift of Chaos is worth taking there (I'll start the thread). The point of this thread is to brainstorm tactics assuming a strategy that includes the Gift of Chaos.

So, any ideas from people not determined to avoid the issue?

I was moreso talking about the expected value of causing damage considered in wounds rather than in points values

That's my entire point. You list the possible points gain of creating a spawn (40 per) as a pro for GoC; my point is that as you do not and cannot usefully measure the points gain produced by the other powers, which is nonetheless real, it is unfair (i.e. distorting) to use this as a measure.

So provide the fair measures then.

@OP
I've read through the posts and a lot of them don't address your question.

Tactical uses that I have seen for the GoC:
1. Against Static or Gun line type armies, specifically Tau/IG this power can improve your initial impact into their lines. Also with the low T3 as you've pointed out it will go off 50% of the time. You are paying 30pts to potentially make 160pts of spawn (if you are lucky and are able to cast it 4 times and it successfully goes off) That is 4 new units which improves options for engaging more units with a normal chaos army having smaller numbers of scoring units.(my current list only has 7 compared to my tau army which has 14 at 1750)

2. In your line forces, ie 1k Sons, so that when they are charged it will mitigate their terrible HtH, (terrible compared to the rest of the codex) Getting rid of Sgts/Nob/Ui/Exarch

3. I look at this spell like mind war with a smaller range, if this power had 12" range it would be amazing. When it does work against an IC or Sgt it can be game breaking. For example causing the entire army to take a Morale check or reducing the whole army's LD to 8. Against Eldar it will be harder as Runes of Warding will make it tough to get off but same with every psychic spell.

4. Bike or Disk of Tzeentch to get near the flank of your opponent to start "building an army"

5. Lash DP + Sorcerer(wings/bike) w/ GoC lash a squad turn one towards your DP, assault with DP, following turn GoC the combat.

6. Useful against infiltrating units as they are that much closer.

There is nothing to "learn" about "using" Gift of Chaos. It has a small range, so you have to get close. That's it. It's chances of working depend solely on the Toughness of the target, so there is no advantage or disadvantage depending on which model has the power.

Aside from that, you need to roll high. There is no skill or tactic to make your dice roll better.

No one is avoiding the issue, there just really isn't all that much to talk about, and in the end, it isn't very useful. That's what we've been trying to tell you for two pages now.

Adding fancy, long winded soliloquies don't add anything to the discussion, and refuting everything we bring up by saying it "isn't what I'm talking about" does much less to further the discussion along.

So provide the fair measures then.

If we strike out the bit I've been criticising, I think you're doing okay.

whitedragon wrote:
Aside from that, you need to roll high. There is no skill or tactic to make your dice roll better.

True but it is odds, like everything else. And the OP was trying to keep the discussion on "if you were to take the power GoC what tactical uses could you use it for?" a lot of the comments are off topic. It's like vespid... how would you use vespid? the number of people that reply "oh vespid suck" aren't adding to the original discussion, they're just adding their opinion not their ideas on how to use em.

now, let's say you WERE to take this spell... can you think of a way that you would want to use it?

paidinfull: Thank you for posting on topic.

whitedragon: Considering Gift of Chaos must be cast at the beginning of the turn it strikes me that some skills and tactics are required to bring it into range. That's basically the skill in using most of the psychic powers: getting into range so it'll do damage, and getting into range of the target that'll maximize the damage done. Like the Lash of Submission, Gift of Chaos has the additional weirdness of doing something besides getting into range and rolling dice. The former requires good judgment about where you want the affected unit to go. The latter, it would seem, requires skillful judgment about where the Sorcerer goes afterwards, and what the Spawn (if any) does.

As noted, alone of the Psychic Powers available to the Chaos Marines Gift of Chaos allows a Sorcerer to increase its range by moving away. Likewise alone of those Powers the Gift of Chaos allows you to create 'free' models (free, of course, at the cost of other powers and a distinct unreliability assuming perfectly average rolls).

It certainly seems like there's plenty to talk about. So far we've seen some discussion about when and where Gift of Chaos might have the most effect, and the most reliability, and what the Sorcerer might do after casting (run away...). But so far when this thread has been on topic is has been rather vague. Since the devil is in the details, there's certainly more to talk about.

Also:

Pointing out that you're off-topic isn't refuting what you've said. It's just pointing out that you're not furthering the discussion at hand (and I'm rather guilty of encouraging it by addressing strategic concerns). Indeed I've started a thread where you can continue our discussion of the strategic merits of Gift of Chaos: http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/208992.page

paidinfull wrote:
now, let's say you WERE to take this spell... can you think of a way that you would want to use it?

Ok, I'll bite.

If I took this power, I would want to cast it on myself so that I wouldn't have to wonder why we are having such a pointless conversation about a worthless psychic power.

Good question, why are you involved in this conversation that you believe to be pointless about something you don't want to discuss?

Because the issue is that you would never take this power in the first place. Discussing how it could work doesn't make it any less useful. It still sucks and you have to admit to handicapping yourself to take it.

Why would you want to fight with one hand tied behind your back? It makes no sense to me and I was hoping you would enlighten me as to why you insist on discussing things that are useless.

You do a good job of hounding us to stay on topic, but I must ask, why are we talking about Gift of Chaos in the first place. What are you trying to gain from all of this?