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I've been sitting on this for a while, but here it is...I HATE THE NEW DAEMONS! Why did GW decide to make them suck so much? I don't know if any of you out there like them or not, so f you think I'm crazy fell free to let me know. I want to hear a good way to use them.


I used to play a Word Bearer army. I had 9 troops choices, 1 HQ and 1 Elite. This included my Dark Apostle, 10 Chosen, 40 marines (all foot slogging), and 50 daemons (16 Bloodletters, 24 Daemonetts, and 10 Furries). The list just ripped through anything that wasn't heavy armor, and even then I sometime got lucky and could bring down AV 14 with one of my meltas, or some rends. The second the new codex came out I saw the daemon entry and sold off all of my daemons on ebay. I am vastly disappointed with the new daemons in the CSM codex, and I want to know if any of you out there share my sentiments.

pretty sure you just answered your own question.

I think you'll find most people here agree with your sentiments, but at the same time the old Demons were absolutely broken. There's a reason your Demons consisted of Bloodletters & Demonettes. Hell I'm surprised you've had Furies in there.

I don't think Demons should have gotten nerfed to where they are now, but they needed some kind of toning down (and toning up in the case of Plaguebearers & Flamers/Horrors), but this does remind me of a pretty funny story:

One time I was in my local GW and some guy I'd never seen before came in and started raving about how "Chaos got killed!" and "Demons blow now, why did they change them!?!?". This prompted a discussion with the Manager trying to tell him how the new Demons could be good, etc, but the guy wasn't having any of it.

I think when he left he picked up a copy of the Eldar codex.

It's going to be pretty damn funny if a little ways down the road, the OP reads the Daemon Codex and goes, 'Hot damn! I can't wait to-oh. Oh..."

But... but they said as far back as the release of the new CSM codex that they were planning on doing a Daemon Codex... Man, no one has any patience anymore.

Now if Daemons didn't get their own Codex, then you'd have a valid point at being pissed. Along with all the Daemonhunters players out there who now have an armoury that's... utterly useless.

AlexCage wrote:But... but they said as far back as the release of the new CSM codex that they were planning on doing a Daemon Codex... Man, no one has any patience anymore.

Now if Daemons didn't get their own Codex, then you'd have a valid point at being pissed. Along with all the Daemonhunters players out there who now have an armoury that's... utterly useless.

I agree with your sentiment, but it's important to remember that GW didn't say they were making a Daemon Codex: it was mostly rumors until just before or just after the Chaos book itself was released. If GW were a bit more upfront, and assured players that a daemon book was coming, you'd be more correct.

Also, not to dig up ancient history, but patience and faith in GW can sometimes bite you: ask anybody with a LatD army.

Hrm. Good point. I remember at the time everyone I talked to seemed so convinced the rumors were true (given how badly they gimped the Daemons) that I just took it as gospel.

And hey! You can still USE all those Daemon models you have! Just like your LATD models! They're perfectly viable in the existing range of armies! *ducks incoming flak*

i don't care about the new daemon codex though. i wanted daemons to still be usable in my existent army. as per the rules they are worthless, and the thing is there is no way in hell i am gonna buy that new codex. basically making the CSM daemons suck was GW's way of making people have to go out and buy the new daemon codex so that any daemons they had cold be used effectively. also the new daemon codex is a stand alone codex, meaning things won't be summoned, they are gonna be on the board at the beginning of the game. i want to summon them, and not have them just sit there. yes they were broken in the old rules, being able to summon, move and charge (plus scatter) but now the chaos deepstrike things don't have to scatter and IMO the new daemons should have t be summoned in place 6" from an icon. that would limit them, and they still get to charge so that's ok.

the new daemon codex is just a gimmick that GW is pulling to get more people to start a new army so that they can make more money. It's a way for them to screw the gaming community once again. that s why i will never play the new daemon codex, no matter how good, unless some super generous person would buy me everything for it if course...i won't deny kindness

Oh right and I forgot to say, as far as I've been told by my local GW rep (who has never giving me the GW crapola statements, which is rare) the new daemon codex may not be able to be used in a CSM army in the way imperials get to share between codices. which s a double boo on their part

Bastirous666 wrote:Oh right and I forgot to say, as far as I've been told by my local GW rep (who has never giving me the GW crapola statements, which is rare) the new daemon codex may not be able to be used in a CSM army in the way imperials get to share between codices. which s a double boo on their part

The search function is a wonderful tool that often gets overlooked. There have been discussions about this already.

In anycase, while I do have some of the same sentiments, I like people like you who are that impulsive because it makes getting minis a lot cheaper for the rest of us.

go right ahead buy the new daemons, i'm just saying out of principle, and hate for the CSM daemons i will not be suckered into buying the new army/codex

Voodoo Boyz wrote:I think you'll find most people here agree with your sentiments, but at the same time the old Demons were absolutely broken. There's a reason your Demons consisted of Bloodletters & Demonettes. Hell I'm surprised you've had Furies in there.

I don't think Demons should have gotten nerfed to where they are now, but they needed some kind of toning down (and toning up in the case of Plaguebearers & Flamers/Horrors), but this does remind me of a pretty funny story:

First time I've heard anybody explore why demons got the nerf, and I don't necessarily disagree with you either, though I do miss my 2x 6 demonette "game winner" squads. I think a big slip-up on GeeDub's part was not differentiating the demons at all. Taking a page from 2 codeces back (which they've kinda revisited in general) and the way icons / marks work in the new book, having one statline then adding +1 A / T / I / Inv save depending on deity would have been simple and acceptible. Undivided demons would stay as now, dedicated ones cost 5 points more or something. Not too hard :S

As it is though I still find uses for what amounts to a mob of nekkid marines with refractor fields and 2 ccw jumping on people ...

- Salvage

I'm pretty sure I'm in the minority on this, but I'm glad GW is toning down all the codex armies. I'm hoping it will put some thinking and strategy back into the game. As opposed to (what some in this thread have already stated) having the no brainer game winner. It's the same reason it used to be fun to find out who really was the best in racing by watching IROC.

Maybe people will take note of all the "nerfing" going on and FINALLY start toning down their lists. Then some character might be added back in.

It's tricky, when you've got folks with revised codices trying to compete and stand a chance against some of the tough builds out there. Some of the armies out now, the way GW pushes you towards building them, your heavy weapon count is never going to cut it against skimmer-heavy Eldar or Tau, big-bug nids, or multiple Monoliths.

I'm on the same page with Boss Salvage. I still get some mileage out of the new weaker Lesser Daemons, but I can't see any reason at all why they couldn't have just allowed mild variations in statline based on god to make them a little bit better, give you more tactical, options, AND be more flavorful/fluffy. If S5, I5, and Flying were too good for Furies, just making them Fly and lose the two stat boots would still keep them interesting.

I agree with Kim. I've played Tau, which is a nicely-balanced army, all this time (except the last year and a half ) and I'm glad other armies are being toned down too.

I was actually surprised that people were whining about Tau because I never played an all-skimmers list and thought that when people talked about it, it was purely hypothetical.

That's exactly my point. I know I probably sounded like i think the whole change was crap, but i just get carried away talking about the daemons. I am glad that GW toned the daemons down some, as they were way broken, being able to scatter, move and charge on the turn they were summoned, i just don't think the replacement was a good change. it made them go from "oh dear lord they are amazing!" to "thanks but no thanks" I wish GW had made them at least have some of the special rules. Daemonetts could have had +1 I, bloodletters +1 WS, Plague Bearers +1 T, Horrors a shooting attack, and furries flying, but now they are just some simpleton guys, much worse than a chaos marine for only 2pts less.

it just makes me sad, that's all

Bastirous666 wrote:I've been sitting on this for a while, but here it is...I HATE THE NEW DAEMONS! Why did GW decide to make them suck so much? I don't know if any of you out there like them or not, so f you think I'm crazy fell free to let me know. I want to hear a good way to use them.


I used to play a Word Bearer army. I had 9 troops choices, 1 HQ and 1 Elite. This included my Dark Apostle, 10 Chosen, 40 marines (all foot slogging), and 50 daemons (16 Bloodletters, 24 Daemonetts, and 10 Furries). The list just ripped through anything that wasn't heavy armor, and even then I sometime got lucky and could bring down AV 14 with one of my meltas, or some rends. The second the new codex came out I saw the daemon entry and sold off all of my daemons on ebay. I am vastly disappointed with the new daemons in the CSM codex, and I want to know if any of you out there share my sentiments.

I'm guessing that GW nerfed the Daemons because they want players to demonstrate some minimal amount of actual tactical skill and finesse, rather than turning 40k into a game based around who has the most broken list with the most undercosted minis.

In the grim darkness of the far future, you shall not be missed.

Polonius wrote:

AlexCage wrote:Man, no one has any patience anymore.

Also, not to dig up ancient history, but patience and faith in GW can sometimes bite you: ask anybody with a LatD army.

LatD? Puh-leeeaze. They never had their own Codex, and they got an Apocalypse Datasheet within months, so they have nothing to complain about.

The guys who have actual valid complaint are the Squat players, who got dragged around for *years*.

Yah, I must agree. Deamons in the previous codex were over the top. Being able to deep strike in and assault on the same turn was broken. That and the fact that they were really good for what they cost makes me somewhat glad they are gone. On the other side I am sad that the got reduced to the generic blobs that they are now. Some variety would have been nice.

JohnHwangDD wrote:LatD? Puh-leeeaze. They never had their own Codex, and they got an Apocalypse Datasheet within months, so they have nothing to complain about.

Except when people like you act all high and mighty. You really come across as callous, reactionary, self-centered and poorly-informed when you say things like that. Lost and the Damned players DO have a legitimate complaint, and you're acting like an apologist and a blinder-wearing fanboy to claim otherwise.

JohnHwangDD wrote:
I'm guessing that GW nerfed the Daemons because they want players to demonstrate some minimal amount of actual tactical skill and finesse, rather than turning 40k into a game based around who has the most broken list with the most undercosted minis.

QFT

JohnHwangDD wrote:LatD? Puh-leeeaze. They never had their own Codex, and they got an Apocalypse Datasheet within months, so they have nothing to complain about.

The guys who have actual valid complaint are the Squat players, who got dragged around for *years*.

Squats never had a codex. LatD did. It was called Codex: Eye of Terror and was as valid as any other codex. LatD Mutants even appear in the current rulebook.

The Apoc datasheet is nothing other than some basic rules for Mutants. Which is great if you actually ran that many Mutants and have thousands of points of LatD. I don't see many LatD players *expanding* an otherwise invalid army just to play the occasional Apoc game. Saying they received "coverage" in a system that has no org charts or limitations is saying nothing.

Although I like that the Flying Spaghetti Monster is covered in Apoc too. I wrote up a datasheet for it. GW even said I could! Yay!

JohnHwangDD wrote:
LatD? Puh-leeeaze. They never had their own Codex, and they got an Apocalypse Datasheet within months, so they have nothing to complain about.

At least AlexCage ducked. You walked right into it.

I don't think GW is "toning down" the new Codex's.

Eldar, Chaos, Orks, are all very powerful lists.

Compare that to codex Dark Angels, and you see just how different the power levels are.

In fact Dark Angels are the only "weak" new codex. Blood Angels & Templars got *nerfed* from what they were, but still can make decent lists.

JohnHwangDD wrote:
I'm guessing that GW nerfed the Daemons because they want players to demonstrate some minimal amount of actual tactical skill and finesse, rather than turning 40k into a game based around who has the most broken list with the most undercosted minis.

In the grim darkness of the far future, you shall not be missed.

but see my list was in no way broken...i had to trudge through enemy fire, and the mud to reach the opposing player lines, and then my daemons were effective, but till then nothing more than pin cushions. In fact i lost more games than i won, but always had fun when i could place between 30 and 50 daemons on the table at one time. seeing the opponents eyes was enough victory for me that day.

You know, I'm getting back into the hobby after a 3-4 year hiatus, so I've been giving the DA codex a good hard look (as I'm a DA player). I don't see them being that "nerfed".

In fact, seeing as how I used to ALWAYS run with 10 man squads anyway, I've gained some flexibility, and a few points here and there. It would have sucked if I were playing an donkey cannon heavy list (which is just plain lazy IMHO). I never played "optimized" lists (god I hate that word), and I did Ok having a flexible force and thinking my way through. Now it seems people are complaining they are being forced to do the same.

Boo fricken hoo. Learn tactics other than "I'll load up on donkey cannons, and hope for the best."

Except when people like you act all high and mighty. You really come across as callous, reactionary, self-centered and poorly-informed when you say things like that. Lost and the Damned players DO have a legitimate complaint, and you're acting like an apologist and a blinder-wearing fanboy to claim otherwise.

Absolutely agree on that rebuttal. I was about to collect the list myself when they killed it and am glad I wasn't one of those who's entire army was invalidated. With not enough demons to go Demon Horde, not enough guard to go IG, and not enough CSM to go chaos, they've had to go "opponent permission" or sell 2/3 or their army to buy into one.

Back on topic, the demons were too powerful, but nerfed too much. I'm ticked that I have no nurglings, especially since I have 30 bases of them. I really think that they will be fixed with the legion codexes though.

@KiMonarrez you don't get it, it's just the daemons are way too weak now, and i had som many. had they only been broght down to a fair level i would have no complaints, but their new rules are too ridiculously weak. I like the new CSM codex, minus the turn that the daemon took. I used tons of daemons as my first post said, but now i use none because they aren't worth it. The CSM's are way better in all respects as for 2pts more they get a 3+ save, frag/krak grenades, shooting (bolter and bolt pistol) and the same number of attacks.

i just think GW toned the daemons down too much, as they were broken, i just wish it had not been as much as was done. other than that i have no complaint about the CSM codex.

KiMonarrez wrote:You know, I'm getting back into the hobby after a 3-4 year hiatus, so I've been giving the DA codex a good hard look (as I'm a DA player). I don't see them being that "nerfed".

In fact, seeing as how I used to ALWAYS run with 10 man squads anyway, I've gained some flexibility, and a few points here and there. It would have sucked if I were playing an donkey cannon heavy list (which is just plain lazy IMHO). I never played "optimized" lists (god I hate that word), and I did Ok having a flexible force and thinking my way through. Now it seems people are complaining they are being forced to do the same.

Boo fricken hoo. Learn tactics other than "I'll load up on donkey cannons, and hope for the best."

Not to make this into another DA debate thread, but it's not about loading up on the Donkey Cannons.

The whole combat squads rule, applied to EVERYTHING Marine wise, Tac Squads, Assault Squads, Dev Squads, means you're wasting points where you didn't before. This is themey though, which while nice, kind of blows while all the other armies out there don't have that problem and are much more powerful as a result.

One thing that bothers me isn't so much "OMG MY ASSAULT CANNONS ARE NERFED!" it's more about the fact that I can't take 2 Heavies in a Terminator Squad. Without the 2 Heavies, they're really not an attractive option. I'd rather they cost more, or weren't as effective, but toning it down to just one, and no options for 2 CML's? That just makes it suck.

Then you add in the rest of the bits of places the list just bones you, and you see how bad it is compared to Normal Marines, then Chaos, then Nids, Eldar, Orks, Tau, Necrons, etc.

is the DA codex really that bad? that's what kinda happened to the chaos codex, but it's not as bad for me as i don't use heavy weapons in my high mobility list