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I think fire warriors should get photon grenades for free. It wouldn't make them overpowered, and it fits the fluff of Tau being well equipped. Also, drop the extra attack the fire warrior shas'uis get and instead increase the model's ballistic skill to 4. The attack is worthless and I 'd much rather see the ballistic skill of the one model who can carry a markerlight increase. I like the idea of weapon options for drones, but would limit them to fusion blasters and flamers and would not allow mixing of different upgrades (two flamers or two fusion blasters but not one of each). A devilfish with two flamers would be a welcome change to the nerfed fish of fury. I agree with Kilkrazy that battlesuits should see an increase in squad size and decrease in price. Also, The shas'vre upgrade is next to worthless as it currently is. Once again, drop the melee upgrades as they make virtually no difference and raise the ballistic skill of the model to 4.

Kilkrazy wrote:I think these issues are just a reflection of a philosophical difference between you and me in terms of how we see Tau and their place in the overall game.

Unquestionably so.

I don't see a problem with providing a secondary alternative to Suits as a way to get weapons on the board. To me, it opens up a little design space in the HQ / Elites that right now cannot be considered because it would gut the army.

Anyhow, the next Tau book is probably 3 years down the road. But I'd hope for:
- more Xenos
- expanded Drones
- more reasonable Transport
- more options, including some CC

My utility chains look like this:

Troops: FW -> Kroot -> Drones
Heavies: Railhead -> Broadside -> Gun Drones
Specials: Suits -> SW Drones
HtH: Kroot / Xenos MC -> CC Suits -> CC Drones

I agree that allowing the D'Fish drones to attach to the FW squad would work.

I personally think it dilutes the unique flavour of the Tau to allow the FW to have heavy weapons on drones or man portable. In my view, the main purpose of attaching the D'Fish drones to the squad is to reduce KPs.

I would increase the rapid fire range of the pulse rifle to 15 inches. This does not decrease their reliance on suits since the suits are still needed for all the proper heavy weapons like plasma.

It would not make FW less vulnerable to H2H. My idea is to leave them as vulnerable as before, but give the tools to the army as a whole, that a clever player can use to stop the enemy getting into H2H by outmanoeuvring and outshooting him.

Increased rapid fire range certainly helps, and allows FW to have an offensive character -- it would give them a chance to shoot an enemy squad off an objective, for example.

However, Tau are about combined arms and other changes I have suggested -- for example, cheaper suits and more of them -- would also be needed to improve the overall capability of the army.

@KK,We both agree on the need for increased squad size of the xv-8 crisis suit but I'm not sure on the points drop.

I'm also having a problem justifying the presence of so many suits when the fluff would indicate maybe only a very small percentage of fire warriors will live to make to that level. I agree with the idea greater numbers of suits but unless there is a major improvement in fire warrior survivability it just doesn't make sense.

We will just have to disagree on the limited special weapon drones. I think its a philisophical difference as to how we percieve the Tau. I believe as long as its drones then it's not violating the Tau concept of oneness or sameness. I see the Tau as capable of distinction between groups or types but not promoting such within the fire caste. This means that they recognise that different things have different uses and will make use of such as long as the caste menbers maintain their homogeny. This comes to special weapon shas'la=no, added non-firecaste special weapons=yes. A shas'ui is different because of his experience and level of progression on the firwarrior path, which is why he's allowed wargear.

Also, if the special weapon drones are taken then no other drones would be allowed.


I like the idea of the increased Rapid fire range. It would be an easy improvement to make. I don't see this alone as the only fix for the fire warriors. Their shooting was almost halved in effectiveness. I think maybe access to a Tau version of combat tactics.
It really annoys me that the SMs got what should have been a Tau tactic all along. With the Tau initiative and stats it wouldn't be overpowered but a viable option when assaulted by hero's, SMs, and the other stuff that wipes a caught squad in a single turn. The ability to volutarily fallback from close combat to shoot? Not holding a set piece of land but rather being more fluid. This screams Tau, not space marine.(Please, pardon my rant.)

Your thoughts on this?

focusedfire wrote:I believe as long as its drones then it's not violating the Tau concept of oneness or sameness. I see the Tau as capable of distinction between groups or types but not promoting such within the fire caste.

This comes to special weapon shas'la=no, added non-firecaste special weapons=yes. A shas'ui is different because of his experience and level of progression on the firwarrior path, which is why he's allowed wargear.

Also, if the special weapon drones are taken then no other drones would be allowed.

Totally agreed with all of the above.

But even Special Weapon Drones should be homogenous, that is, no mixing of Flamer Drone + Melta Drone.

The problem with giving tau combat tactics, is that they don't automatically rally. So i wouldn't be tactics as much as it would be "OMG Screw this IM OUT!". As for 15" rapid fire range, it's probably never going to happen.

JohnHwangDD wrote:Totally agreed with all of the above.

But even Special Weapon Drones should be homogenous, that is, no mixing of Flamer Drone + Melta Drone.

That was actually one of the provisions that I stated in the first post about them. So yeah, I think all are agreed upon them being homogenous.

JourneyPsycheOut wrote:The problem with giving tau combat tactics, is that they don't automatically rally. So i wouldn't be tactics as much as it would be "OMG Screw this IM OUT!". As for 15" rapid fire range, it's probably never going to happen.

Which is why it's not over powered and yet another reason to take the bonding knife.

It just occured to me that the bonding knifes capabilities might could be tweaked to allow a rally within 6" of opponent.

Doesn't combat tactics require them to successfully break way from the combat, just like when something is normally broken? Their I2 doesn't seem to help that much.

It's a chance when there is pretty much no chance for them as is. I'm not saying its great, just that the Tau should get that or hit and run.

Yeah... but at that point it's practically a suicide button rather than anything else.

I have a couple of suggestions for fixing tau for 5th et. from reading (most) of thisthread it seems to be general consensus that the BIG issue with tau is the weakness in the fire warriors, but not wanting a simple points change or BS raise. Having thought about this at some length i have a few suggestions.

1) when you upgrade a FW to a Shas'ui his stat change is BS 4, LD 8, gains a markerlight, and bonding knife, costs 15pts instead of 10.

2) make markerlights assault 1 instead of heavy 1 and make any markerlight carried by a Shas'ui networked.

this would, I think represent nicely the Shasmarking the target for his team to destroy while not robbing it of its mobility.

3) army wide USR for tau meaning enemy units basic cover save is 5+ instead of 4+. call it 'Tactical Battlefield Overlay' or something like that

4) As previously mentioned rapid fire range of 15'' for pulse rifles

I think giving squad leaders networked markerlights and bs 4 is an elegant solution to making Firewarriors dangerous while preserving or even enhancing the technological aspect of the army. Make the whole package cost something like 20 or 25 points for what is essentially a stormtrooper that has a 75% chance to make his squad more accurate for a turn. I wouldn't change pulse rifles to rapid fire at 15", we already have a problem with exceptions to rules. If we got the Networked Markerlights on Shas'ui then we wouldn't need the "reduce enemy cover saves by 1" rule anyway.

focusedfire wrote:@KK,We both agree on the need for increased squad size of the xv-8 crisis suit but I'm not sure on the points drop.

I'm also having a problem justifying the presence of so many suits when the fluff would indicate maybe only a very small percentage of fire warriors will live to make to that level. I agree with the idea greater numbers of suits but unless there is a major improvement in fire warrior survivability it just doesn't make sense.

We will just have to disagree on the limited special weapon drones. I think its a philisophical difference as to how we percieve the Tau. I believe as long as its drones then it's not violating the Tau concept of oneness or sameness. I see the Tau as capable of distinction between groups or types but not promoting such within the fire caste. This means that they recognise that different things have different uses and will make use of such as long as the caste menbers maintain their homogeny. This comes to special weapon shas'la=no, added non-firecaste special weapons=yes. A shas'ui is different because of his experience and level of progression on the firwarrior path, which is why he's allowed wargear.

Also, if the special weapon drones are taken then no other drones would be allowed.


I like the idea of the increased Rapid fire range. It would be an easy improvement to make. I don't see this alone as the only fix for the fire warriors. Their shooting was almost halved in effectiveness. I think maybe access to a Tau version of combat tactics.
It really annoys me that the SMs got what should have been a Tau tactic all along. With the Tau initiative and stats it wouldn't be overpowered but a viable option when assaulted by hero's, SMs, and the other stuff that wipes a caught squad in a single turn. The ability to volutarily fallback from close combat to shoot? Not holding a set piece of land but rather being more fluid. This screams Tau, not space marine.(Please, pardon my rant.)

Your thoughts on this?

My thinking is that the suits are now somewhat over-costed given the various issues with them.

I prefer solutions which work by relatively minor modifications of what is already there. Get the basics right, then add options carefully without upsetting the balance.

You're right that Tau should have a kind of combat tactics.

Fail-safe detonator drones?


Sorry, I love the idea of asplodey drones

It says in the codex that FW doctrine does not allow organically intergrated heavy weapons so why not have to FWs give up there shots to take a heavy weapon platform like Guardians with something like;

Twin-linked Missile Pod
Twin-linked Rail Rifle
Twin-linked Plasma Rifle

Or some other new weapons?

As for auxiliaries how about adding the races that are heard but not seen? (The Demiurg, Galgs, Humans, Nicassar and the Tarellians)

First off, Eldar already have that niche covered.

Second, Tau FW already have non-integrated semi-attached expanded capability via Drones.

Therefore, it's more natural to expand FW Drone options to provide semi-attached Special Weapon capability.

But moving to Heavy Weapons in FW squads probably wouldn't work.

Man...there's a lot of tastiness going on in this thread that would make me want to play my Tau more often if it happened...

JohnHwangDD wrote:First off, Eldar already have that niche covered.

Second, Tau FW already have non-integrated semi-attached expanded capability via Drones.

Therefore, it's more natural to expand FW Drone options to provide semi-attached Special Weapon capability.

But moving to Heavy Weapons in FW squads probably wouldn't work.

You are probably right, but it is just an idea.

Actually I would like to see a better background history (so neglected) and better fluff to rules.

I kinda like all markerlights becomming assault 1. I wouldn't make it any easer however to get them. Ethereals currently suck, considering the direction of space marine characters. I think a 75pt ethereal that is exactly what aun'shi was is reasonable.
Can't see anything else needing to be changed.

The only improvement the devilfish really needs is primary weapon options, other than that they are fine (they have an advantage of rhinos and razorbacks in that they are not dedicated transports).

Krellnus wrote:The only improvement the devilfish really needs is primary weapon options, other than that they are fine (they have an advantage of rhinos and razorbacks in that they are not dedicated transports).

I'd like to see the ion gun reissued as a devilfish upgrade (for a moderately high cost) since it feels more akin to a high tech heavy bolter then a tank main gun.

As to marker lights, given the new prevalence of "ignore cover" weapons I would think they ought to do that outright, rather then reducing by one. I'm alson on board with the Shas'ui's being assault and networked (not as sure if I'd want to see the pathfinders given that though...maybe). I still want to see the function of marker lights simplified. Perhaps a simple table giving advantages for total number of marker light hits isntead of expending counters/hits for effect.

I.e. (with each level including the above)
1 hit > ignore cover saves
2 hits > all shooting counts as twin linked
3 hits > all shooting may re-roll to wound
etc...

Just examples no serious play testing or number crunching involved.

Jack

Try playing a game with either of your ideas. You'll find they are too powerful. With markerlights upgraded like that, Tau will wipe out horde armies, and with every devilfish access to a great midrange weapon like the ion cannon, marines will last an even shorter time.

I did run devilfish with ion cannons before, using the VDR rules. They were expensive close to 200pts each, but at 2000pt games they were broken good.

Jackmojo wrote:

Krellnus wrote:The only improvement the devilfish really needs is primary weapon options, other than that they are fine (they have an advantage of rhinos and razorbacks in that they are not dedicated transports).

I'd like to see the ion gun reissued as a devilfish upgrade (for a moderately high cost) since it feels more akin to a high tech heavy bolter then a tank main gun.

As to marker lights, given the new prevalence of "ignore cover" weapons I would think they ought to do that outright, rather then reducing by one. I'm alson on board with the Shas'ui's being assault and networked (not as sure if I'd want to see the pathfinders given that though...maybe). I still want to see the function of marker lights simplified. Perhaps a simple table giving advantages for total number of marker light hits isntead of expending counters/hits for effect.

I.e. (with each level including the above)
1 hit > ignore cover saves
2 hits > all shooting counts as twin linked
3 hits > all shooting may re-roll to wound
etc...

Just examples no serious play testing or number crunching involved.

Jack

Sazzlefrats wrote:Try playing a game with either of your ideas. You'll find they are too powerful. With markerlights upgraded like that, Tau will wipe out horde armies, and with every devilfish access to a great midrange weapon like the ion cannon, marines will last an even shorter time.

I did run devilfish with ion cannons before, using the VDR rules. They were expensive close to 200pts each, but at 2000pt games they were broken good.

Could be, mind I'm not necessarily advocating leaving the points cost as is either, just saying what I'd like to see in a newer codex for them. My gut feeling is that the table I tossed up there might work okay with only squad based upgrade marker lights but fail for pathfinders and other multiple marker light squads.

I may be biased though, I've annihilated every tau army I've fought with space marines (both pre and post new codex) in 5th edition, so I feel they're clearly lacking something.

As to Tau wiping out hordes...that seems to be something they utterly lack the ability to do currently so clearly some sort of solution is required, since any horde they can't shoot down eats them alive.

Jack

I agree that Tau are lacking. I don't feel they lack at all against MEQ, but put them against a skilled Nids or Necron player and its pretty much an autolose. My bias is that well I just beat the marines player that won the last big tournament in the area, and 10 other games before that against whomever.

In thinking about it, reduce the cost of vehicles, reduce the cost of markerlights (5pts?) and make them assault weapons, would go a long ways towards making it more viable against hordes. The other thing is whats the deal with the experimental wargear, its costly and some have weird drawbacks, like iridium armor reducing your movement. Lame.

Jackmojo wrote:
Could be, mind I'm not necessarily advocating leaving the points cost as is either, just saying what I'd like to see in a newer codex for them. My gut feeling is that the table I tossed up there might work okay with only squad based upgrade marker lights but fail for pathfinders and other multiple marker light squads.

I may be biased though, I've annihilated every tau army I've fought with space marines (both pre and post new codex) in 5th edition, so I feel they're clearly lacking something.

As to Tau wiping out hordes...that seems to be something they utterly lack the ability to do currently so clearly some sort of solution is required, since any horde they can't shoot down eats them alive.

Jack

Based on what they have done for the Ork codex and what has now been revealed for the IG shootiness, the Tau better get a serious re-work when their new codex comes out. Nothing infuriates me more than to be "out-shot" by other armies when that is supposedly our strength and when we pay for it by having worse than horrible CC ability.

So, I was going to post this as a new topic, but it makes a lot more sense here:

So, the idea is,the new trend, from the looks of the 5th edition marines codex (and from the rumors about the imperial guard codex) is to have commanders or special characters who dick around with your FOC chart or let you take silly special rules for your units or whatever. So what would this look like for tau? Here’s a few ideas

3rd edition characters:

Aun’shi from what I can remember, he's an etherial that.. what, gave better cc stats to the unit he's with? and he had some silly parry rule, also. Really, it would make more sense from a gmeplay persepctive if the squad he joined could reroll their armor save (he's "lucky", as noted in the fluff), since that would let the squad he joins do better in a firefight, since it seems tau can dish it out but not take it. maybe extend this ability to squads within'' 6 or something.

4th edition characters:

Commander O’shasherra (Shadowsun):
Shadowsun already has this going on a little, with her 18’’ leadership bubble. She is clearly designed to encourage gunlines (since leadership bonuses are mostly useless on infantry hanging out in tanks). I’ve heard a lot of people clambering for “stealthsuits are scoring/troop choices”, but this (as far as I can tell) does not strictly fit her style, you know? Really, she doesn’t need that much more to really work. I’d say, slight point drop, and just for the sake of argument, that it would make more sense to take pathfinders (they’re infantry) as troops, not stealth’s, but that’s just me. Maybe make it so pathfinders don’t need to buy a transport.

Commander O’shova (Farsight): O’shova has this going on A LOT.. except it has the main effect of making his army a bitch to play… just so you canfield a semi-gakky faux-monsterous creature? feth that, I say he gets to field crisis suits as troops, right off the bat. Secondly, I say he gets to upgrade (for appropriate points costs) his crisis suit sergeants (shas’vres) to shas’el or Shas’o for the appropriate costs. This could get scary, particularly you could now have a triple shas’o team running around in the second HQ slot... which is kinda what this special character should be about- neutering your army so you can throw out a handful of stupidly-good crisis suits.

Aun’va, Master of the undying spirit: aun’va sucks hard. Really, he is just flat out bad. He, more than anyone else, needs something to not suck. He already gives off stubborn , but let’s make a few changes:

1st: stubborn is too all units on the field, not only those that see him
2nd: you can field firewarrior bodyguard vets (like the one ethereal can use) as troop choices, for the appropriate points
3rd: units within 12’’ get slow and purposeful (remember, he’s another gunline character, which tau suck at)

Give him all that, and then he might be worth looking at, at his current point value.

Forgeworld/other characters:

Anghor Prok, Master Kroot Shaper (rules found here): http://www.cygnusx1.info/tau/anghkor_prok.pdf
Anghor could stand to have a slightly lower cost (75 is overpriced for what he actually does), but let’s take a cue from the marine codex and just make him a special squad leader you can buy if you take at least one squad of kroot. He’s outside the FOC (like telios from the marine codex), instead of taking up a HQ slot which seems wasteful to me.

Commander O’r’myr (Longknife)(rules found here): http://www.forgeworld.co.uk/pdf/rmyr2.pdf

O’r’myr is forgeworld, but it would be nice if he could be added as a legit commander in the next codex. Really, he’s good enough of a standalone commander that you could just buy him for his wargear and such, with out FOc shenanigans. That said, if you wanted him to feth with the FOC, I’d say:

1st: preferred enemy against imperials (useless, I know)
2nd: firewarriors/pathfinders can infiltrate (justified as “guerilla warfare” tactics learned on taros).

And that’s about it.

New characters:

These are character occasionally mentioned in the fluff who could stand to get rules and models, in my opinion:

Brightsword: he’s farsight protégé, he’s from vior’la, so I’d suggest the following:

Shas’el statline
Fire knife setup (plasma/pods),
He and his bodyguard can outflank (mont’ka tactics come to mind)
Stim injectors are no longer special issue (vior’la’s warriors are VERY aggressive)
Kroot, vespids and human auxilleries are 0-1 choices (not as bad as farsight, but in the same vein.)

Put him around 170 points or so.

Coldfire: He’s mentioned here and there as a commanding veteran of wars between the tau and the tyranids. It’s easy to imagine a grizzed, ancient, bad ass battlesuit pilot who isn’t kill-crazy like farsight, so:

Shas’O statline
Burst cannon, flamer, shield generator, hwmt.
Army gains preferred enemy against tyranids (again, useless, but fluffy)
Burst cannons, flamers, and carbines in the army all become twin-linked, ala vulkan.
He and his body guard have counter attack, if bought alone he has hit and run.

Put him around 200 points.

thoughts?

Interesting.

Well now most of the gaurd cat is out of the bag we can stop being sensible with our suggestions as 5th ed is obviously OTT ed. (which is not a bad thein IMO) So, while we are throwing ideas around, along with my previous suggestions why not make the submunition shot on the railgun AP 3 or AP4 rending.

All secondary weapons on tanks (drones, burst cannons etc) count as defensive.

Drones on devilfish dont give up kp and can join the unit being transported by the fish

make marker drones cheaper

Crisis suits base BS 4 (no hard point eating upgrade) with the two commander level suits being BS5 and BS 6

Crisis suit bodygaurds should come with (in thier points cost) shield generators but only get2 hard points to spent

All battlesuits should become immune to instant death or FNP (or both depending on how silly we are feeling)

squadroned piranahs drones should be able to deploy as one drone squad (again should cost no kp)

Vespid, 4+save instead of 5+, and emp grenades, raise the range on thier gun to 18"

I think I am done for now and A lot of these I might live to regret later but I have thought aout them in the context of the new C:SM and the upcoming C:IG (and its leaked summary sheet) which both seem to suggest upgunning is the future.

Drones in a Piranha squadron can already deploy as one drone unit. It's required, even.