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Auxellion wrote:I had the local "Store" kid snip off the tails to all of my Carnifexs before. I put quite a bit of time painting and highlighting these models. And he comes over with clippers and CLIPS THE TAILS. (Short Ends of them)

Now I pinned a bit of them and added the mace/scyth tail to all of my fexs with some greenstuff work. It looks fine now. I didn't see the kid do it, but it was more of a: "He's not looking hahaha" *Destructive Behavior*

Now that same kid sits at home and plays WoW and Magic.... And I have mentally damaged Carnifexs....

Someone accidentaly breaking a model or getting their grubby paw prints on it I can just about accept, but if someone blatantly damaged any of my possesions on purpose they would earn themselves a kicking. At some point everyone has to learn there are consequences for unacceptable behaviour, normaly painful ones

However I must say, well done for keeping your cool, you are a better man than I.

Albatross wrote:Man, why is everyone on here so mellow? It's to all of your credit of course, but still...if someone picked up one of my miniatures without asking they'd get a slap as a matter of course! Well, maybe nothing that extreme, but miniatures are so expensive and time consuming to collect/paint etc. the rule should be look with your eyes, not with your hands! That's how I was brought up.

So...you would slap someone's kid? While I sympthaize about folks and their minis and not being damaged, if you think the anger over broken minis is bad, its nothing compared to an enraged parent. And nothing justifies your stance.

Grow up. Seriously.


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BeefyG wrote:LOL nice way to insult the masses alex.

What's with the placidity and repression?

Just slap the kids. You are bigger than them. Actually even if they are bigger and older than you slap them anyway. There is no age limit on learning.

Yeah, the tough guy act. Lets get something clear:

Here's a man who slap a 2 year old in walmart for crying:

http://news.aol.com/article/man-slaps-child-in-walmart/653392

He faces felony cruelty to children. Keep that in mind the next time you get the tough guy act about slapping kids.

I sympathize, I really really do. But "he touched my models" defense is probably not going to hold up in court.

Bet if that kids dad had been in attendance he wouldn't have slapped that kid.

Oh, and thanks for making the internet tough guy call, squilverine and carmachu.

grizgrin wrote:Bet if that kids dad had been in attendance he wouldn't have slapped that kid.

Oh, and thanks for making the internet tough guy call, squilverine and carmachu.

Its not really a problem. I see it on alot of levels- as a business owner in a mall who constantly cleans finger prints off said(non-GW) products, who politely and someties not so politely ask them not to touch.

As player of GW games, I hav alot of sympathy here.

But as a parent? Yeah I can safely say there isnt one person in this thread despite the tough talk, thats actually going to slap a kid. For no other reason that there be a world of touble dropped on your head if you did. Legal or Otherwise.

For the majority of children a strong tone with decent volume (not to the point of yelling) works pretty well. As for the punkers / wannabe's / mallrats short of hovering over your models and telling them 'no'; there is not much you can do to them. The day and age of beating someone for reasons beyond defense has past as valid / legal / norm.

Honestly all one can really hope for is respect for the time and effort of the miniatures.

We know the road most of these kids follow and how it ends for a large majority for them. Not that it should give you any satisfaction but keep that in mind when you feel retribution should be in order.

Carmachu, I agree with your post especially the last note about crossing the line to physical contact. In most cases legality is the least of your worries. Touching someones child for any reason is usually returned ten fold.

As for my horror stories thankfully I am my worst enemy. I tend to 'godzilla' my models when I dont put them away for the night come back the following morning waking up tired walking around and crunch crunch...now only if I can breath fire as I scream in agony from the pieces.

I'm just curious carmachu, if it was your child who destroyed a $50+ model, would you take responsibility for your child's actions and offer to replace the model? Or would you tell said person to piss off because their case won't hold up in court?

In either case, the man slapping a kid in Wal-Mart is just deplorable. Crying children are a fact of life and something you can't control so easily...however it's very easy to avoid situations in which someone's property ends up being destroyed, either teach your kid the basics and make them stay close to mom/dad, keep their hands to themselves, no running etc., or simply avoid taking them out in public if you can't keep them under control. I do my part to avoid situations like this by keeping a close eye on my stuff, so don't be an idiot and let your kids run around unchecked and we should all live happily ever after.

We should Sid, but there are those who let their kids run them.

So you didn't read my post? Seriously, go back and read it.

You'll notice that I qualify the 'slap' statement, saying 'probably nothing that extreme...', but whatever, some people like to be 'outraged'.
Of course I wouldn't slap a child! I am a father myself, and would never physically discipline my son. But it is interesting that you assumed I was talking about a kid. A fair amount of these stories include adults, in what essentially is (or should be?) a kid's hobby. In that respect, the 'grow up' comment is pretty laughable.
As for the 'internet tough-guy stuff... whatever! If you prefer impotent rage... that's your business. I've never let anyone kick sand in my face, metaphorically or otherwise - that doesn't make me a wannabe tough-guy,
it just means I'm not a fanny.

Frenzied Potato wrote:For the majority of children a strong tone with decent volume (not to the point of yelling) works pretty well. As for the punkers / wannabe's / mallrats short of hovering over your models and telling them 'no'; there is not much you can do to them. The day and age of beating someone for reasons beyond defense has past as valid / legal / norm.

Honestly all one can really hope for is respect for the time and effort of the miniatures.

Young kids, by the very nature, arecurios creatures. tdoesn excuse their actions, but they want to see what that new thing is. DOesnt matter if its a player piano or GW model.

And yes, the authorative tone works. Doesnt actually have volume. I've quietly slid up to kids and said in normal tones "please dont touch that" or just looked at them and shaken my head. You do need to take control of the situation.

sidstlyer wrote:I'm just curious carmachu, if it was your child who destroyed a $50+ model, would you take responsibility for your child's actions and offer to replace the model? Or would you tell said person to piss off because their case won't hold up in court?

That all depends. If you laid a hand on the child good chances are no. Otherwise yeah. Liek I said, I've been on all the other levels in retail on the kid issue. My daughter who is 6 for example, is weet and would be asking me if she could touh them-and good chances are she's not going touch it on her own. The two year old boy, however, is an engine of destruction and I keep him on a VERY short leash. Because he will, if he gets his hands on a model, wing it across the room.




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Sidstyler wrote: either teach your kid the basics and make them stay close to mom/dad, keep their hands to themselves, no running etc., or simply avoid taking them out in public if you can't keep them under control. I do my part to avoid situations like this by keeping a close eye on my stuff, so don't be an idiot and let your kids run around unchecked and we should all live happily ever after.

But also on the flip side? Keep in mind kids are curious by nature. Especially the yonger ones. Doesnt mean you have to let them touch them. But I've found if you take the moment to show them, it goes a long way. That goes for the under middle school age.....once they get that old, your on your own and they should know better.

Hell, I have found adults far worse then kids at least at my store....

I once had someone place my Skink in their mouth before placing it back on the table and then walking off.

On another note, I would never slap, scream at or abuse another player/kid for touching my minis.

I mad a custom chapter master for my mariens. He was emporer's champion+dante's backpack+ a power sword on his hand. I spent 5 hours planning paint job, 3 hours painting it and all my best paints. SO my first game, he is domanting middle of the table and my dev squad is on the table edge. This thing(named child by others) jumps on the table so he can pick up my custom chapter master . He scrapes some paint off it. His belly slew my dreadnought in two and my dev squad had been destroyed 30+ parts 5 models.

Same model. I finish doing some detail and green stuff fire. I go to qfc for some hot pockets and soda(10 mins tops) when i come back he is painted GREEN snot green. I saw some kid painting it. Im 14 and i wanted get khorne all over the 10 year olds face. I had to be civil and i asked him why he did it, he said: it looked stupid no green at all, so why not repaint it and take off his shield? It was my model and we all shared right. Kid wasnt there for a month.

grizgrin wrote:Bet if that kids dad had been in attendance he wouldn't have slapped that kid.

Oh, and thanks for making the internet tough guy call, squilverine and carmachu.

Maybe I could have been clearer in my post, I was not suggesting that I would ever hurt a child, in fact the idea of it sickens me.

However if an adult deliberatly damaged my property then yes I would stand up for myself. I was perhaps exagerating when I suggested "giving someone a kicking" but then again what would your reaction be if you saw someone keying your car or smashing a window on your house? Deliberate damage to anothers property is criminal damage, just because it is directed towards lead soldiers does not detract from the seriousness of the action.

I firmly believe that if people are allowed to get away with this sort of thing unchallenged then we leave the door open for it to become veiwed as acceptable. When I was younger and seriously misbehaved then I got a smacked arse. Subsequently I learn't that it is not cool to bully people, steal things or damage property.

squilverine wrote:

grizgrin wrote:Bet if that kids dad had been in attendance he wouldn't have slapped that kid.

Oh, and thanks for making the internet tough guy call, squilverine and carmachu.

Maybe I could have been clearer in my post, I was not suggesting that I would ever hurt a child, in fact the idea of it sickens me.

However if an adult deliberatly damaged my property then yes I would stand up for myself. I was perhaps exagerating when I suggested "giving someone a kicking" but then again what would your reaction be if you saw someone keying your car or smashing a window on your house? Deliberate damage to anothers property is criminal damage, just because it is directed towards lead soldiers does not detract from the seriousness of the action.

I firmly believe that if people are allowed to get away with this sort of thing unchallenged then we leave the door open for it to become veiwed as acceptable. When I was younger and seriously misbehaved then I got a smacked arse. Subsequently I learn't that it is not cool to bully people, steal things or damage property.

Do not forget society dictates acceptable behavior. Though recently it looks like it is finally going back to being ok to discipline your own child without social services coming to your door.

I can't think of the person who said this but the qoute goes, "Nothing is more dangerous then ignorance in action."

Its a grey, grey line.

Back on topic though: We had the driveway eat a box by force by attacking one of our players and eating its contents ie: he fell, the box opened up and chaos space marines deepstriked everywhere.

I had a mother of a small child walk up to me and comment on my painting. Mid Game. She picked up on of the Carnifexs.

I explained to her that we were in the middle of the game, she said she knew where it went. She looked at a few of the other players space marine figures, placing them back down in the general area of where they went. That was fine. She hung around at another table with her little son. The husband (I'm guessing) came in and was looking around as well with the son. (The son was maybe 14 or 15.) Everything was fine, me and my opponent continued the game. He was wearing a GT Baltimore shirt. This started the mother talking.

By far the most amusing conversation ever. The Mother was telling her son something along the lines of "When you get older like these other kids you can go to the big tournament in Baltimore. "It's like the final four in Pokemon." and a bunch of other kids go there. "It's a world wide event." I didn't comment on the conversation. My opponent did. He told her no, they had a few big tounramnets and they were around 150 people there and itwas more of an adult game.

She responded along the lines of "Don't ruin it for him, he's just a child!" "Don't tease him and knocked over one of my opponent's Dreadnaughts. Then leaving the store with the kid. My opponent was about 15. I was 17 at the time.....

She told the GW staffer who justed avoided doing anything. I thought it was funny.

Only major molestation of one of my models was done by myself...

I was painting a terminator Chaplain that was my first metal figure; I'd found him quite fiddly to put together (because of the triangular studs having to be lined up to fit his arms on)... Anyhoo, my friend was over and as I finished the last brush strokes I thrust him into the air exclaiming "He's finished!"

He flew out of my hand... clipped my metal desk, and his arm broke off; with the stud still inside his torso; now he's very fiddly to stick together... But hasn't broken in a long while (Thank God).

Buuuut my Techmarine is a different story; I accidentally warped one of the studs on his servo harness' plasma cutter (clumsy clipping on my part); this NEVER fails to break off whenever he is transported and has no grip on it at all :-/

I should try this "pinning" thing; but I have no idea how it works... hrm, NEW THREAD TIME!

squilverine wrote:

Maybe I could have been clearer in my post, I was not suggesting that I would ever hurt a child, in fact the idea of it sickens me.

I'm sure you werent, My point was being that criminal law the "he broke my model" isnt going to stand up in court.

However if an adult deliberatly damaged my property then yes I would stand up for myself. I was perhaps exagerating when I suggested "giving someone a kicking" but then again what would your reaction be if you saw someone keying your car or smashing a window on your house? Deliberate damage to anothers property is criminal damage, just because it is directed towards lead soldiers does not detract from the seriousness of the action.

I firmly believe that if people are allowed to get away with this sort of thing unchallenged then we leave the door open for it to become veiwed as acceptable. When I was younger and seriously misbehaved then I got a smacked arse. Subsequently I learn't that it is not cool to bully people, steal things or damage property.

Right. You should absolutely stand up for yourself whether its an adult or a child and you have to deal with their parents, if they broke your model.

Neither of those examples still gives you the right to slap someone. Granted you will WANT to, but legalisticly, you have no standing to hit them. Civilly you cant make them pay.

Personally I have ALOT less patience for adults then I do for kids. Kids geneally are curious, adults should and do know better.

Yes I got a swat n the bottom. But thats from my parents. No one else gets to do that.

Yes I got a swat n the bottom. But thats from my parents. No one else gets to do that.

Not what I've heard...

carmachu wrote:

squilverine wrote:

Maybe I could have been clearer in my post, I was not suggesting that I would ever hurt a child, in fact the idea of it sickens me.

I'm sure you werent, My point was being that criminal law the "he broke my model" isnt going to stand up in court.

However if an adult deliberatly damaged my property then yes I would stand up for myself. I was perhaps exagerating when I suggested "giving someone a kicking" but then again what would your reaction be if you saw someone keying your car or smashing a window on your house? Deliberate damage to anothers property is criminal damage, just because it is directed towards lead soldiers does not detract from the seriousness of the action.

I firmly believe that if people are allowed to get away with this sort of thing unchallenged then we leave the door open for it to become veiwed as acceptable. When I was younger and seriously misbehaved then I got a smacked arse. Subsequently I learn't that it is not cool to bully people, steal things or damage property.

Right. You should absolutely stand up for yourself whether its an adult or a child and you have to deal with their parents, if they broke your model.

Neither of those examples still gives you the right to slap someone. Granted you will WANT to, but legalisticly, you have no standing to hit them. Civilly you cant make them pay.

Personally I have ALOT less patience for adults then I do for kids. Kids geneally are curious, adults should and do know better.

Yes I got a swat n the bottom. But thats from my parents. No one else gets to do that.

I agree that in court using the excuse that someone broke my property would not excuse physical violence, however it would have a significant bearing on any case as it would be classed as severe provocation. A jury would most likely look in sympathy towards someone who had caught another damaging their property and would not be inclined to find against the defendant. This alone would probably mean that unless someone was significantly hurt (not what I was intending to potray myself as being capable of!) it is unlikely the Police would even charge you let alone the CPS considering taking it to court.

With regards to slaping children, I couldn't agree more, only a parent (or guardian) has the right to do this, and even then it should only be considered as a last resort in the most extreme of cases.
When I suggested hitting someone i.e. an adult, who was wantonely damaging my property. I wasn't trying to come across as some sort of internet Jean Claude Van Damme! I merely meant that, that would probably be the first reaction to go across my mind. Sadly the truth is that i am the direct opposite and the only thing that should feel threatened by me these days is a bacon roll!

squilverine wrote:

carmachu wrote:

squilverine wrote:


I agree that in court using the excuse that someone broke my property would not excuse physical violence

No but you can use force to prevent damage before it happens

squilverine wrote:

I agree that in court using the excuse that someone broke my property would not excuse physical violence, however it would have a significant bearing on any case as it would be classed as severe provocation. A jury would most likely look in sympathy towards someone who had caught another damaging their property and would not be inclined to find against the defendant. This alone would probably mean that unless someone was significantly hurt (not what I was intending to potray myself as being capable of!) it is unlikely the Police would even charge you let alone the CPS considering taking it to court.

mmmm, no. You're speculating. I can pretty much guarentee that if you slap someone for picking up your model, and then putting it back and it breaks, your not going to get much sympathy.

In my example of walmart, the 2 year old wasnt hurt for 4 slaps to the face by the 61 year old. YET he faces FELONY count of cruelty to children. How much are you willing to gamble jail time for slapping some kid or hitting some adult over your model?

Felony cruelty to children, by the way is 5-20 years.

http://wiki.answers.com/Q/Is_cruelty_to_children_in_GA_a_felony

How sure are you that a jury will see it your way over a broken model? You are speculating WAY to much that police wouldnt arresst you(CPS BTW is only for investigating families. You hit a stranger's kid, its the police all the way). If the parent wants to press charges, you will be in front of a judge.


Having said all that, again, you should stand for yourself over the model. Hitting? yeah thats goingto bring a world of crap upon your head.

With regards to slaping children, I couldn't agree more, only a parent (or guardian) has the right to do this, and even then it should only be considered as a last resort in the most extreme of cases.
When I suggested hitting someone i.e. an adult, who was wantonely damaging my property. I wasn't trying to come across as some sort of internet Jean Claude Van Damme! I merely meant that, that would probably be the first reaction to go across my mind. Sadly the truth is that i am the direct opposite and the only thing that should feel threatened by me these days is a bacon roll!

It may be your first inclination, but its still the wrong one.

Please be aware that I am speaking from a UK legal veiwpoint, A subject which i have studied. I was also not talking about hitting a child over dropping a miniature, I was talking about slapping an adult who deliberatly caused damage to property, not accidentaly.

However you are completely right, violence is not the right reaction, but sometimes it is the first one.

C'mon, guys! All this bickering over legality/morality of slapping other people's children is seriously derailing a fun and horrifying thread!

In an effort to get back on topic:

When I was first playing WHFB nigh on 12 years ago, my buddy and I had no gaming table and no Friendly Local with one, so we played on a green sheet on the floor in the basement. In addition to being hard on the knees, this had the additional peril of putting everything in range of the cat.

I had a Lizardman army with a converted Stegadon made from a really nice Museum replica of a Styracosaurus. The great thing about this, is it was mostly one piece, and made from a very dense, rubber-like plastic.

This was good as the cat would inevitably sneak past our guard during the course of our enormous floor battles, spring nimbly over all the units on the board (without touching or upsetting a single one), then whack the living daylights out of the poor stegadon before bolting out of the room like lightning.

It always amazed me that the Stegadon was the only target of his feline aggression.

Cats could be a whole nother thread!

My Cat is an agent of chaos who simultaneously all four of the chaos gods.

I have lost models to my kitty's bloodthirsty agression (khorne) disgusting litterbox filth (nurgle), found models horribly deformed and mutated (tzeentch). I think all of this is the result of the cat's prideful and hedonistic existence (slaanesh).

Probably the worst was the model he carried into the litterbox.... nothing like scooping out the box, some litter is sifting out of the scoop, and what you thought was a small turd is actually your raptor champion with a powersword...

I have also had an army suffer the ravages of the furry feline god of war, my house mates cat Oscar will quite hapily swipe miniatures from the table or window sill if they are in the way of him finding a comfortable spot to lick his balls.

I have heard of a case in Ohio, where an army was mauled by a 4 or 5 year old, who wasn't being supervised in a FLGS. The parent and owner of said models got into a heated argument and the police were called. After the officer arrived, listened to both sides, etc. he asked the value of the minis in question, time needed to replace them , etc. and promptly presented the proud father with a ticket for aggravated criminal damaging. Supposedly, the guy fought it in court, lost AND had to make restitution to the guy who owned the minis. Buddy of mine who is a cop has been telling that story for a LONGGGGG time, so, maybe there is a legal way to handle it! LOL!!!

There have been many cases of this with my army, friends armies etc but I have a story of the opposite nature.

I recently went to one of my closest friends houses. He had his orks on a not very high shelf during a party with lots of people walking in and out of his room, some trying to pic up his minis etc.

He knew I was a veteran but when I politely asked if I could pick up a mini he would basically say no, as if I'd break them, even the ones that were sturdly glued with minimal pieces, the fact he was drunk might of been a factor to his 'prissy-ness' as he told my girlfriend she couldnt pick them up but eventually let me and I was a lot more careful with them than him.

This brings up the case of people who're too over-protective or uptight with their miniatures. Now I don't blame my friend or scorn him for it but you do meet people who think there's a big chance of you breaking their mini even though they handle them properlly, many people encountered these types?

I have two horror stories. I'll save the best for last though.

First one was my very first Store Battle. It was Tyranids vs Space Marines, and I'd brought along some of my 'nids. Of course, I got asked to share out some of my models with people who hadn't brought any along. Most of the guys were fine, but this one guy kept picking up my Ravener Brood (5 Raveners, some of which were converted). The guy must've had butter fingers, because within 2 minutes he'd dropped one of them (totally annihilated it as it hit the store floor), and broken the Scything Talons off a 2nd one. It irritated me, but I fixed them up after the battle.

The worst time was when I'd bought a Bloodthirster. This was my first large Daemon, and I was having trouble with adding the wings. The staff member in GW suggested pinning the joint, and offered kindly to do the first wing for me. As he glues the first wing into place, he goes to serve a customer at the desk...but his sweater catches onto the clawed wing of the Bloodthirster, pulling it off a 3ft high table, again hitting the floor. The body, head, horns, one arm and the wing all came off. The staff member looked round and couldn't apologise enough (thankfully it wasn't painted or anything). He couldn't resist joking about it though:

As I walked out the shop after buying some stuff, he says 'Sorry about the 'Thirster, but you know how to pin the joints now!'

Wow - the kids in my FLGS are much better behaved than that...

They'll stick their snotty noses over the edge of the gaming table and LOOK, but they never try to touch.

Y'all have made me appreciate them a lot more!

I remember seeing a flying Forgeworld greater deamon of khorne, it caught good air, like 5 or 6 seconds of hang time, went like 20 feet. then hit a cement wall and shattered upon impact with it and the floor.

I dont know the circumstances of the beggining of hte flight, but I do know the aftermath. The parents of the kid responsible for the launch was out a few hundered bucks.

I shuddered inside reading some onf these.

Yes, I will be the first to admit that they are toys, but they are of course fairly fragile toys, and they often require plenty of work to assemble and paint.

Then there is of course the cost! I bet a lot of these parents would let their kids run amok in a store that sold paintings for £30+ each.
Yet someone's custom-converted, green-putty-extras sculpted, Master Painted Daemon Prince is fair game to smash?

Makes my blood boil.