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Chapterhouse wrote:I hope those owners realize that a C&D is in no way legal, and a company can put anything they want in it, regardless if its law or just stuff they are making up. Someone should point those owners to this thread.

It's not about being in the right legally; they just have a lot of money and aren't afraid to throw their weight around to make a point. They just want to put the frighteners into the little people with their little websites.

"Fear will keep the local systems in line."

Like I just posted in the other thread:

It doesn't seem to be tossing their weight around. The sites they're going after have trademarks of GW in their name(the bloodbowl sites and darkreign40k) or are linking directly to GW photos, etc without proper crediting.

Pyriel- wrote:

the painter software doesn't belong to gw and doesn't use their IP it uses an image which looks like a space marine but the link the actual page calls it the "Imperial amrine paint v5.0 beta"

Go ahead and sculpt a mini that looks exactly like a space marine, just call it an imperial marine and make money of it and we´ll see how legal that will be.

Enigma Miniatures tried, and failed. Although in all fairness, they never took it to court since they didn't have the funds.

Stupid, too. Their fantasy figures were relatively generic; anyone can sell elves, dwarves, and renaissance Germans.

If they had been honest, and stuck to producing generic stuff instead of GW rip-ffs, they could have been the next Reaper, or at least a solid third-party supplier.

--Chris
www.chrisvalera.com

Howard A Treesong wrote:

"Fear will keep the local systems in line."

Indeed mate... But it can also trigger a revolution, extreme actions to induce fear showed us many times that they are not "safe".
By safe I mean If a Big company attacks many small fan based sites just to induce general fear they may/will experience a very negative turnback.

I think its not in GW best interest to go this route because GW publicity system is based on word of mouth... fan sites pushing the GW stuff are a good thing! even if some are not 100% constructed according to GW IP wishes... THis blind goose chase will only benefict GW competition.

I would fire the legal company who is behind this...
This is foremost a hobby for 90% of the costumers and people dont need this kind of agravations on their hobby life.

I'm willing to bet if GW was POLITE to fans and asked if they could change sites most would do it gladly... but by doing the oposite they will get nothing more than pissed of people.

TGN just added an entry with GWs official response :

http://www.tabletopgamingnews.com/2009/11/09/31255#comments


To which I add:

Change the URL to what ? A name without “BloodBowl” in it ?? What’s the point if no one can find it ?

So, by GWs heavy-handed legal logic, I should change the name of my game club, where we play 40K and discuss rules, to something generic and non-40K related ??

Yet another ding to GWs rep as a company !!

So have they gone after NAF?

Crazy, really wierd call, when you have game with its bow so low in the water its almost gone under for ever.

Why in the nine hells would you want to kill off sites that where helping keeping it on life support and quite likely contributing to the slim sales of said game.

GW, mis-understanding the whole 'cut me own throat' style of sales-manship?

Myrthe wrote:Change the URL to what ? A name without “BloodBowl” in it ?? What’s the point if no one can find it ?

People don't seem to have too many problems finding Dakka. Or Bolter & Chainsword. Or Warseer.

So, by GWs heavy-handed legal logic, I should change the name of my game club, where we play 40K and discuss rules, to something generic and non-40K related ??

It can be 40K related. It just can't have GW-registered Trademarks in it.

Fuss about nothing

GW asks site owner to change site name

Owner can't be bothered as he's lost interest

Owner offers site to someone else

What's the problem ?

The easiest thing to do would just be to change the name. Not the fairest :( but the easiest to solve this issue!

Problem? They want the donations button removed which makes funding the site somewhat difficult. The name change is the least of the problems. Yes someone else could take it but how would they pay for it?

Morathi's Darkest Sin wrote:So have they gone after NAF?

Crazy, really wierd call, when you have game with its bow so low in the water its almost gone under for ever.

Why in the nine hells would you want to kill off sites that where helping keeping it on life support and quite likely contributing to the slim sales of said game.

GW, mis-understanding the whole 'cut me own throat' style of sales-manship?

The NAF changed their domain last weekend.

Ah, didn't know.

I have some of the dice and was once a member, but haven't been there in a while. Since my last PC died about a year ago.. still slowly building up my old links.

Pyriel- wrote:Tone down the holyer-then-thou attitude please.

I put a smiley with that comment that was there very much on purpose

Hi All,

Here is the form letter that has been forwarded to a number of people (and myself) in the BB community who expressed their concerns about the goings on.

Its nice to see that they could actually take the time to respond...but quite troubling that they have bothered to include the reference to challenging leagues (of any sort) bb or warhammer that include those words in their name.

Anyway the letter for people to read:

Our ref: 10761

Thank you for your email concerning the website www.talkbloodbowl.com.



We understand that you are unhappy about the decision by the people running www.talkbloodbowl.com to shut their site down. The Blood Bowl community is important to Games Workshop and we are also disappointed that they have felt it necessary to take such a step. Unfortunately, that decision is entirely one for them and we can have no influence over what action they choose to take.



Unlike many companies, Games Workshop usually only stops people from using our intellectual property if we must do so in order to protect it (provided that use is by and for hobbyists). For example, the law requires us to protect our trademarks in certain ways - and if we do not - we might lose them. As you can imagine, we do not want to lose our trademarks as we would no longer be able to create the great miniatures and table top hobby wargames that we pride ourselves on!

‘Blood Bowl’ is a trademark that belongs to Games Workshop. Therefore the use of it by third parties, without licence, is unlawful and an infringement of Games Workshop’s rights.

Guidance has been available for our fans for many years in our Intellectual Property Policy that can be found on the legal pages of our website legal.games-workshop.com This sets out how our hobbyists can use our intellectual property in such a way that Games Workshop is not likely to object. Within the policy there are some simple rules, such as:


1) Do not mention any Games Workshop Trademarks, such as “Blood Bowl” or “Warhammer” in your URL or league name; and

2) Do not screenscrape any content from official websites.


There are also a number of more general guidelines, setting out the spirit of the policy. If a fan follows the policy in spirit and letter, then it is highly unlikely that Games Workshop will take any action to prevent their use of Games Workshop’s IP.



Games Workshop has not specifically targeted any particular website but instead has taken a consistent approach to all sites that we are aware of that are using our ‘Blood Bowl’ trademark without our permission.



We have written to the owners or administrators of these sites detailing our concerns. In our letters, we gave the parties infringing our rights various options as to how they could address our concerns. At no time did Games Workshop demand that any website close down.



We trust that this clarifies the situation.


Group Legal Department
Games Workshop Group PLC

RiTides wrote:The easiest thing to do would just be to change the name. Not the fairest :( but the easiest to solve this issue!

GW does not deserve the publicity that these sites provide if GW wants to shut people down for the heinous crime of being supportive.

I'm not fooled by their letter either. GW is notorious for trying to make people think that they're acting out of necessity. But take a look at other miniatures companies. The ones that don't try to shut down their fans' websites and don't charge 50$ for 5 models. Is it by some miracle that they are flourishing? No, GW just treats their fans like trash.

jabbakahut wrote:Am I the only one who finds it completely ridiculous that if you website can't be distinguished as not gamesworkshop somehow it means your violating IP or Copyright? If the consumers of your product are so fething stupid that they don't know where they are, maybe your product just really isn't that good or unique.

Pretty much this. If I run a hobby site, and I have GW articles, PP articles, Warzone articles, SST articles, hobby articles, and articles GW doesn't like, will they come after me?

Come to think of it, drunkdwarves got hit with just this. They had "hot chick of the day" maxim magazine style photos on the site, and GW took them to task for it.

Sadly, they caved, but it would be interesting to see what would happen if they had fought the case.

--Chris
www.chrisvalera.com

warpcrafter wrote:If they come over Dakka, I will gladly volunteer my dirty fighting skills to the cause. I make a mean flaming bag of dog poop.

I totally agree with this statement. I dont really no spit about legal proceedings, apart from the random ticket and whatnot, but Id gladly help in any way possible. That would just piss me off to the core.

Gotta love how GW treats its customers. You KNOW everyone on that site paid for their products. This is when having the power to grow into a giant and hoe smack them would be awesome

I think I'm going to hold off on my next merchandise order, this totally channels my metallica vs. napster hate. Maybe its time to finally find a new game system.

NAVARRO wrote:

Howard A Treesong wrote:

"Fear will keep the local systems in line."

Indeed mate... But it can also trigger a revolution

Not in GW's fanbase.

We might grumble for a few days or weeks until the next shiny toy is revealed and then we forgive and forget just like Pavlov's dog.

And GW knows this...

CT GAMER wrote:

NAVARRO wrote:

Howard A Treesong wrote:

"Fear will keep the local systems in line."

Indeed mate... But it can also trigger a revolution

Not in GW's fanbase.

We might grumble for a few days or weeks until the next shiny toy is revealed and then we forgive and forget just like Pavlov's dog.

And GW knows this...

Hard to quantify both, I have no idea how many will close the door and how many will go along with the new shiny thing... or how many will chicken andclose sites... what do I know is a 9 year site, that pushed a game in trouble at GW HQ, closed... and that will piss off not the noobs that just got in the hobby but the hardcore vets... and that could be avoided IMO.


Reading the GW letter I read the following " We screwed big time and this letter is a lame atempt to save face"

Reading the GW letter I read the following " We screwed big time and this letter is a lame atempt to save face"

Interesting, that is not what I read at all. I read that they try/tried to work with sites to guide them in steps to keep operating. They also provide direction to fans who wish to create new sites or other "fan" based items. If GW allows Free use of their IP without license they risk losing it. This is the other side of IP law. If a company does not protest the use of their unlicensed IP the trademarks and brands they can become public domain. I think we can all agree that this is a certainly an allowable request by any company that has invested in it's IP over time.

insaniak wrote:

Myrthe wrote:Change the URL to what ? A name without “BloodBowl” in it ?? What’s the point if no one can find it ?

People don't seem to have too many problems finding Dakka. Or Bolter & Chainsword. Or Warseer.

So, by GWs heavy-handed legal logic, I should change the name of my game club, where we play 40K and discuss rules, to something generic and non-40K related ??

It can be 40K related. It just can't have GW-registered Trademarks in it.

I think Dakka, Warseer and B&C are large, all-encompasing sites that don't cater to a single specialist game like BloodBowl. How many here were even aware of the Blood Bowl site we're discussing? I don't play BB so I didn't know about it.

And what next from GW? I can buy their games but I can't talk about them? or, if I do, I can't reference them by name?

This is another example of GWs heavy-handed, over-the-top legal bullying that could have easily been resolved by manndating that fan sites clearly state, under their title, that they are just a fan site and are in no way affiliated with Games Workshop.

Legal interpretations aside, GW Legal has managed, yet again, to piss off the fans of their games.

Myrthe wrote:
TGN just added an entry with GWs official response :

http://www.tabletopgamingnews.com/2009/11/09/31255#comments

Incidentally, TTGN is down for me right now. Coincidence? Of course not.

CT GAMER wrote:
Not in GW's fanbase.

We might grumble for a few days or weeks until the next shiny toy is revealed and then we forgive and forget just like Pavlov's dog.

And GW knows this...

If you want to wallow in your perceived weakness, that's one thing, but I want no part of it. Real actions are easy to take. Instead of buying the new Hellhound kit, I'm converting one from a cheap resin kit. Instead of more plastic Cadians, I'm buying old squats and converting them up with pieces from my junkbox. Most of the models I'm adding to my collection at the moment are ancient pieces that've been making the rounds from one collector to another for about 20 years. There's nothing that GW can release that'd make me march to their store cash in hand.

Easy as pie.

If you read the GW intellectual property policy they are quite happy for people to run forums under certain conditions which are fairly liberal on the whole.

The key 'get-out clause' is the one about not allowing third parties to profit from GW IP. While this is used in the context of commercial services such as painting, it might be construed to apply to the acceptance of donations by a web site owner if the site is entirely based on GW stuff.

Good move by GW Legal to write a follow up letter. Again people blame GW when its the daemon spawns known as lawyers that are at fault here. Sure they're GW lawyers but company executives would be naive not to follow legal advice from legal professionals since they likely don't have any of their own. Not to mention that these sites are painfully small compared to the ones fans actually surf and that GW has given them clear guidelines on how to get back in the legal clear if they choose to do so.

But hey another opportunity to demonize GW is another opportunity I suppose.

Agamemnon2 wrote:
If you want to wallow in your perceived weakness, that's one thing, but I want no part of it. Real actions are easy to take. Instead of buying the new Hellhound kit, I'm converting one from a cheap resin kit. Instead of more plastic Cadians, I'm buying old squats and converting them up with pieces from my junkbox. Most of the models I'm adding to my collection at the moment are ancient pieces that've been making the rounds from one collector to another for about 20 years.

Nah, its much easier to buy the newer models than searching for old ones like Squats - the new Guardsmen are also excellent and FW stuff is even better. Easy as cake.

There's nothing that GW can release that'd make me march to their store cash in hand.

Okay? GW's new stuff has been excellent and their best models have come out in recent years.

jgemrich wrote:

Reading the GW letter I read the following " We screwed big time and this letter is a lame atempt to save face"

Interesting, that is not what I read at all. I read that they try/tried to work with sites to guide them in steps to keep operating.

So C&D and freaky judicial threats is now considered work something out and guidance?

Sure thing! hey mate trash your 9 year site url please, so no one o earth can find it, then trash any kind of donations... put your own money to support a BB comunity we kicked in the ass ok? And contract a professional designer and art guy to decorate your site... If you do all that then you can keep your site and promote us

They know that most will go belly up, so that 2nd letter is a insult to anyones intelect. Like always they didnt espect the noise their arrogant atitudes would eco on the net... to late for that I guess.

Frankly anyone defending GWs actions are defending the indefensable. The attitude and stance taken by GW is one of open hostility and should be met with an equal amount of derision and contempt.

Certain legal actions have to be taken. Having said that I am not sure what the issue for giving the site written permission to use the name.

I really can't understand why GW doesn't have a fan site development kit like every other company out there (specifically video games). By doing so, they could limit the amount of time their legal team spends on such nonsense. Believe me, even with an attorney on retainer, they are still charged for any services provided, on an hourly basis.

A fan-site kit would also create a list of acceptable images and other materials for use as well as setting expectations in regards to the protection of their IP.

Meh, whatever; I have rarely seen a company shoot themselves in the foot to this extent.

MeanGreenStompa wrote:Frankly anyone defending GWs actions are defending the indefensable. The attitude and stance taken by GW is one of open hostility and should be met with an equal amount of derision and contempt.

Frankly, you're full of yourself.