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Bla_Ze wrote:

MeanGreenStompa wrote:Frankly anyone defending GWs actions are defending the indefensable. The attitude and stance taken by GW is one of open hostility and should be met with an equal amount of derision and contempt.

Frankly, you're full of yourself.

The GW apologists are hard at work today.

Modquisition on:
Rule #1 remains in effect. lets tone it down. That includes calling people GW apologists, saying people are full of themselves, etc.

This is an official warning. I will hand out suspensions like Halloween candy. I kid not.

Cane wrote:Nah, its much easier to buy the newer models than searching for old ones like Squats - the new Guardsmen are also excellent and FW stuff is even better. Easy as cake.

Easy? I don't do these things because they're easy. I do these things because they're hard. I hunt bargains, strip horribly painted miniatures and sometimes scratchbuild entire bodyparts to replace broken or lost pieces. As a result, without any undue self-congratulation, my army is unique. There isn't one like it anywhere in the world. Literally unique, mind you. The precise combination of models and paintjobs isn't matched anywhere.

And really, if I didn't do this, I wouldn't be able to justify to myself my continued adherence to the hobby. Due in part to what I consider dislikeable GW business practices.

Cane wrote:

There's nothing that GW can release that'd make me march to their store cash in hand.

Okay? GW's new stuff has been excellent and their best models have come out in recent years.

The last one to come close was the Valkyrie, though after a bit of searching, I opted against it, due to the sheer impossibility of cleanly transporting it at present. The last two models I bought were the Demolisher and the IG Command Squad and really, had I not been able to acquire the former for ca. 70% off retail, I would've done without that as well.

This is not to say the models aren't good. They are, but for me there is a tradeoff, which is the company making them. I cannot change them, the least I can do is not to support them with the majority of my gaming dollar*.

* This caveat is necessary since I do buy GW paints in order to support my local GW store. Because I use their painting table to paint and chat with friends, because I use their gaming tables to play my retro Guard upon. I think it would be hypocritical and more than a little jerkish to take advantage of said facilities without buying anything.

Easier said than done... how can I not buy new bugs and that sweet new fortification?... My models are mostly sculpted though

To steer this back to topic :

TTGN just reported that "TalkBloodBowl" has a new domain name ... "TalkFantasyFootball"

http://www.tabletopgamingnews.com/2009/11/10/31288

This new domain name just reenforces my earlier point about a change in name to remove "Blood Bowl" from the title...

"Fantasy Football" is a well established "game" (pastime?) that is something entirely different from a miniatures game. I can see a lot of confused site visits but, who knows, it may draw some fantasay footballers into Blood Bowl.

Given that fantasy football in this country is about soccer and the guys at work who do it would most likely prefer gargling with live scorpions than playing a 'nerd game', likely not.

Instead they will probably have a swathe of 'WTF is this you sad geeks LULZ' messages every day.

agnosto wrote:Meh, whatever; I have rarely seen a company shoot themselves in the foot to this extent.

I think that most of GW's fans simply don't know or don't care about this, and of those few who do care enough about it to be upset, very few of them will quit buying GW products in protest. Whatever we may think about GW right now for going after seemingly harmless websites, it's probably doing the right thing by its shareholders in protecting its long-term interests as far as brand recognition and approved use of its material. It's a hobby to us, but it's a business to GW. The reason so many of us are fans of GW in the first place is because it acts like a business and keeps up some high standards of quality and artwork, and doesn't allow just anybody to use their IP. You don't have to like their attitude toward fan-sites, and I honestly don't like it, either. But I understand that it's the business model that successful companies are using and if GW quits acting like a big heartless corporation at times, then its fans are going to lose out on some really neat toy soldiers.

So I'm saying "hate the game, don't hate the player". Comparing GW to smaller hobby-game companies doesn't work because they're in different leagues.

I'll certainly be interested to see how GW fares if this sort of thing ever makes it to trial. I have a feeling that "ownership is nine-tenths of the law" will favor GW in cases of IP infringement, however.

MeanGreenStompa wrote:Instead they will probably have a swathe of 'WTF is this you sad geeks LULZ' messages every day.

At least they can take comfort in that they are not the sort of person that uses 'lulz' in a sentence...

Yeah, I'd be like all LOLWUT, SIF, ORLY.

Fantasy Football is a totally crap name for the site. UK people play Fantasy "soccer" and Americans play Fantasy American Football. I

I am sure he'll discover the error of his ways quickly. Fantasy football is a bit of a deal over here.

^ what he said.

Seriously, was www.talkbb.com (or something similar) taken?

I think the move was deliberately taken to make the site into more than simply Bloodbowl. If you make the site inclusive in a general way then GW will NEVER be able to take you down again.

Doing things this way also gives the community the flexibility to take a new "Fantasy Football" game that in no way resembles 'Bloodbowl' and run with that instead. (I'm not saying that is the case, just that it is possible under this decision).

Ironically, TalkFantasyFootball.org might make some non-Blood Bowlers aware of GW's games and actually increase business for them. Nah, probably not.

More likely the other way round. Go GW!

Frazzled wrote:Modquisition on:
Rule #1 remains in effect. lets tone it down. That includes calling people GW apologists, saying people are full of themselves, etc.

This is an official warning. I will hand out suspensions like Halloween candy. I kid not.

HAhahahahahah oooooooooh nooooooo....

DagobahDave wrote:

agnosto wrote:Meh, whatever; I have rarely seen a company shoot themselves in the foot to this extent.

I think that most of GW's fans simply don't know or don't care about this, and of those few who do care enough about it to be upset, very few of them will quit buying GW products in protest. Whatever we may think about GW right now for going after seemingly harmless websites, it's probably doing the right thing by its shareholders in protecting its long-term interests as far as brand recognition and approved use of its material. It's a hobby to us, but it's a business to GW. The reason so many of us are fans of GW in the first place is because it acts like a business and keeps up some high standards of quality and artwork, and doesn't allow just anybody to use their IP. You don't have to like their attitude toward fan-sites, and I honestly don't like it, either. But I understand that it's the business model that successful companies are using and if GW quits acting like a big heartless corporation at times, then its fans are going to lose out on some really neat toy soldiers.

So I'm saying "hate the game, don't hate the player". Comparing GW to smaller hobby-game companies doesn't work because they're in different leagues.

I'll certainly be interested to see how GW fares if this sort of thing ever makes it to trial. I have a feeling that "ownership is nine-tenths of the law" will favor GW in cases of IP infringement, however.

Well put. Although good luck getting more than a handful of the people posting in this thread to consider the perspective you've offered. Evidently, despite having benefitted from capitalism for their whole lives, a large proportion of the people who've posted here think that companies which behave like businesses are, like, y'know, evil, and that anyone who sets up a fan site is by definition a good guy (even if that site infringes a company's IP rights). The fact is that few of the people posting outraged comments here have the slightest idea of how IP law works in the real world or how much IP infringement costs busines. And precisely none of us know the factual context for GW's actions. I'm not saying it's good PR, or even that GW's actions are justified, but in my experience companies like GW which are faced with the need to take legal action often have to balance reputational issues against the need to take legal action to protect their business (or to be seen to be taking action - the perception is often more important than any result). Of course, none of that matters here - all that's important is to be part of yet another infantile contest to see who can post the angriest comment about evil/incompetent/insensitive GW is.

You also have to remember that there is a tendency for people who post a lot on websites like this to think that their opinions are very important. In many cases they have to think this, because otherwise they might question why they spend so much time here posting about something that they profess to despise. The reality is that, as you say, few of GW's customers really care about GW sending cease and desist letters to a bunch of fan sites (I bet noone who's posted here actually stops buying their products as a result). A number of them probably think it's not a bad thing if GW seeks to protect the IP rights that it asserts, because at the end of the day if enough shareholders decide that GW isn't doing enough then they'll bail, GW will fold and we won't get any more nice new toys every month. You'd hope that that would be seen as a bad thing, but from the amount of anti-GW posturing and empty vitriol that gets posted here you'd be forgiven for thinking otherwise.

Apologies to Frazzled if that runs counter to the warning.

Funny post

Your silly stab at all that post on a freaking miniatures forum for the fun of it is hilarious... how about reading what you just posted and look a bit in the mirror?
THis is not a pissing contest, people are being civil about all this mess and having a relaxed converstation about it... but dont worry your opinion is VERY important to me.

Tailgunner wrote:
Well put. Although good luck getting more than a handful of the people posting in this thread to consider the perspective you've offered. Evidently, despite having benefitted from capitalism for their whole lives, a large proportion of the people who've posted here think that companies which behave like businesses are, like, y'know, evil, and that anyone who sets up a fan site is by definition a good guy (even if that site infringes a company's IP rights). The fact is that few of the people posting outraged comments here have the slightest idea of how IP law works in the real world or how much IP infringement costs busines. And precisely none of us know the factual context for GW's actions. I'm not saying it's good PR, or even that GW's actions are justified, but in my experience companies like GW which are faced with the need to take legal action often have to balance reputational issues against the need to take legal action to protect their business (or to be seen to be taking action - the perception is often more important than any result). Of course, none of that matters here - all that's important is to be part of yet another infantile contest to see who can post the angriest comment about evil/incompetent/insensitive GW is.

You also have to remember that there is a tendency for people who post a lot on websites like this to think that their opinions are very important. In many cases they have to think this, because otherwise they might question why they spend so much time here posting about something that they profess to despise. The reality is that, as you say, few of GW's customers really care about GW sending cease and desist letters to a bunch of fan sites (I bet noone who's posted here actually stops buying their products as a result). A number of them probably think it's not a bad thing if GW seeks to protect the IP rights that it asserts, because at the end of the day if enough shareholders decide that GW isn't doing enough then they'll bail, GW will fold and we won't get any more nice new toys every month. You'd hope that that would be seen as a bad thing, but from the amount of anti-GW posturing and empty vitriol that gets posted here you'd be forgiven for thinking otherwise.

Apologies to Frazzled if that runs counter to the warning.

Speaking of vitriol...

A wide ranging attack at a number of people on the thread is still an attack and your particularly charming references to anyone in this thread who isn't down with the way GW conducted this make me wonder if you've ever tried out for the team. Still, cute soundbite, it may be long but it's tragically devoid of any reason or stance.

And this isn't a GW forum, it is a Wargaming Forum and you're posting in it's News and Rumours section. Learn about your surroundings before you leap in guns blazing.

Yet again someone chimes in with the 'if you don't like it, don't comment/purchase/look at it' bs. We are allowed to voice our disquiet about something conducted, as far as all evidence is currently pointing, in a poor and overly hostile manner to the fanbase.

I'd just counter with a 'if you don't like it, don't let us stop you going elsewhere and finding a forum where opposing views are not tolerated'.

Tailgunner wrote:

DagobahDave wrote:

agnosto wrote:Meh, whatever; I have rarely seen a company shoot themselves in the foot to this extent.

I think that most of GW's fans simply don't know or don't care about this, and of those few who do care enough about it to be upset, very few of them will quit buying GW products in protest. Whatever we may think about GW right now for going after seemingly harmless websites, it's probably doing the right thing by its shareholders in protecting its long-term interests as far as brand recognition and approved use of its material. It's a hobby to us, but it's a business to GW. The reason so many of us are fans of GW in the first place is because it acts like a business and keeps up some high standards of quality and artwork, and doesn't allow just anybody to use their IP. You don't have to like their attitude toward fan-sites, and I honestly don't like it, either. But I understand that it's the business model that successful companies are using and if GW quits acting like a big heartless corporation at times, then its fans are going to lose out on some really neat toy soldiers.

So I'm saying "hate the game, don't hate the player". Comparing GW to smaller hobby-game companies doesn't work because they're in different leagues.

I'll certainly be interested to see how GW fares if this sort of thing ever makes it to trial. I have a feeling that "ownership is nine-tenths of the law" will favor GW in cases of IP infringement, however.

Well put. Although good luck getting more than a handful of the people posting in this thread to consider the perspective you've offered. Evidently, despite having benefitted from capitalism for their whole lives, a large proportion of the people who've posted here think that companies which behave like businesses are, like, y'know, evil, and that anyone who sets up a fan site is by definition a good guy (even if that site infringes a company's IP rights). The fact is that few of the people posting outraged comments here have the slightest idea of how IP law works in the real world or how much IP infringement costs busines. And precisely none of us know the factual context for GW's actions. I'm not saying it's good PR, or even that GW's actions are justified, but in my experience companies like GW which are faced with the need to take legal action often have to balance reputational issues against the need to take legal action to protect their business (or to be seen to be taking action - the perception is often more important than any result). Of course, none of that matters here - all that's important is to be part of yet another infantile contest to see who can post the angriest comment about evil/incompetent/insensitive GW is.

You also have to remember that there is a tendency for people who post a lot on websites like this to think that their opinions are very important. In many cases they have to think this, because otherwise they might question why they spend so much time here posting about something that they profess to despise. The reality is that, as you say, few of GW's customers really care about GW sending cease and desist letters to a bunch of fan sites (I bet noone who's posted here actually stops buying their products as a result). A number of them probably think it's not a bad thing if GW seeks to protect the IP rights that it asserts, because at the end of the day if enough shareholders decide that GW isn't doing enough then they'll bail, GW will fold and we won't get any more nice new toys every month. You'd hope that that would be seen as a bad thing, but from the amount of anti-GW posturing and empty vitriol that gets posted here you'd be forgiven for thinking otherwise.

Apologies to Frazzled if that runs counter to the warning.

In reply this is my input from the other post that is covering this story:

Am I the only one to think that some DakkaDakka members are missing the point of some the posts in this debate? From what I've read, nobody is saying that GW are in the wrong for wanting to protect their Trademarks or IP.

The anger and confusion is about how they've gone about it and what they want done to fix it. If MGS is correct, and my feeling is he is due to other legal comments made, then a simple disclaimer provided by GW would of covered the whole IP mess. If the affected websites had been given this chance and not taken it, then a C&D order is a valid follow up. Bandwidth stealing is a seperate issue.

It would seem to me that either GW's legal team is 100% right over the IP issue (various comments make me think that they might not be), they don't really know and are being paranoid / over the top, it could be that they are getting ear ache from 3rd parties who are being paranoid / feel threatened or it simply could be GW having a control freak moment (is that really likely, given it's a handful of sites?)

I would now like to add something else to this to counter the GW fanboyz having a pop at us for moaning:

In the 80's I was introduced to the red box D&D and thus at the age of 14 my interest in gaming was started. Over the years I moved on to games such as Paranoia, Judge Dredd, Traveller, Space Crusade, then on to Space Marine, Titan Legions, 40k, Necromunda, BFG, Bloodbowl. This is a path that most gamers of my age probably followed.

We were there in the days that GW was two different company's, GDW & Citadel. We grew with them through the various systems that they brought out. Before vehicle kits, we used deodorant containers As time went by we introduced our mates to the hobby and our family members. When we grew up and had kids, we passed that interest on to them and some of us passed that interest onto our grandkids. GW was built on us and our passion.

In the late 90's and the new century GW decided that we weren't needed any more, they were big enough to stand on their own. Someone, somewhere decided that targetting the kids gave them a bigger hit money wise. They failed to understand that without our 20 years of support that they wouldn't be in this position. If starting today GW would have the same problem as all the other gaming company's out there.

So GW fanboy, let me clarify this to you. We understand they have to protect their IP / Copyright, we don't begrudge GW making money and we fully understand that they are a business not a charity. However given the support & money we have given them over the years, we feel entitled to moan about things we aren't happy with.

Well..it had a good run.

Locking due to flaming from..from..aahh...take your pick.