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Chapterhouse wrote:Ummm, question, if you believe they have no legal case (hopefully you have done the research) why are you caving in? Do you seriously think GW will spend the 100s of thousands to lose a case against a legitimate fan site?

I'm saddened to hear of yet another fan based site getting shut down. The reason that he is clearly chosing to pull the site is the "what if?" What if GW actually follows up and takes him to court? Can the average man afford to not goto work to get dragged into court by a warrant? No they cannot. The legal ramification are to great to risk for anyone that has a family. So you pull the site. You do it to protect yourself and your family. It sucks, its burns, but it happens.

The best message is hopefully GW actually does something useful instead of crapping on the common man.

Pyriel- wrote:

Bolter and Chainsword, Dakka and BoLS don't use GW IP in their names or domains and I don't think that Warseer is a GW trademark.

Ever seen the GW IP "space marine" painter software?

the painter software doesn't belong to gw and doesn't use their IP it uses an image which looks like a space marine but the link the actual page calls it the "Imperial amrine paint v5.0 beta"


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Kid_Kyoto wrote:

twistinthunder wrote:but he's not infringing their IP, and they can't make him remove the donations button when that helps him keep the site up.

To try and expain GW's case...

Blood Bowl is their trademark, naming something Blood Bowl infringes on it, just like writting a book called Ultramarines would. Dakka Dakka and Bell of Lost Souls are not sicne GW (AFAIK) never had a product with those names. A site called Gorkamorka or Necromunda would have problems.

There is no fair use for trademarks. Commenting on Blood Bowl (etc) is fine, but branding a product Blood Bowl is not.

Now I agree this is a dumb move on GW's part and there's no guarantee they would win a case but that's more or less how I see their logic.

so they could tell me to stop making a paint if i call it ultramarine blue? cause ive seen at least 9 different companies with that colour.

the army got its name from the color ultramarine blue not the other way around.

the painter software doesn't belong to gw and doesn't use their IP it uses an image which looks like a space marine but the link the actual page calls it the "Imperial amrine paint v5.0 beta"

Go ahead and sculpt a mini that looks exactly like a space marine, just call it an imperial marine and make money of it and we´ll see how legal that will be.

I can see why he's shutting down. This has to be demoralizing as hell. What would he be getting vs. what could he be putting at stake in the option of continuing? The whole scenario is ridiculous.

Pyriel- wrote:

the painter software doesn't belong to gw and doesn't use their IP it uses an image which looks like a space marine but the link the actual page calls it the "Imperial amrine paint v5.0 beta"

Go ahead and sculpt a mini that looks exactly like a space marine, just call it an imperial marine and make money of it and we´ll see how legal that will be.

See:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Space_marine

You know most of those movies and games have had toys made that where named space marines.

That could be very confusing to GWs customer base!

This may end up turning into a Monster Cable vs everything with the word monster in it (like a miniature golf course)
The current IP and patent system just doesnt work, and there is no downside to large companies doing things like this. Its going to keep happening until something changes, an for GW, it will be when people stop buying their products.

$20 says they will start suing people that sell their armies on Ebay for "redistributing their IP"

In related news Blood-bowl.net has received their cease and desist letter along with a list of demands to Impact miniatures that includes forbidding Impact from selling their figures at Bloodbowl tournaments.

The statement is to the effect of ALL bloodbowl tournaments meaning they are trying to restrict the sale of non GW models at non GW tournaments now. Talk about a bully overstepping the mark!

GW is within their right to do this to sites that infringe(ie directly name their product in a site name) on their IP, and moreso to folks that ask for donations (profit from their IP ). Its just how the trademark and copyright laws work, as far as I know. Its not a big bad super giant company trying to "crush its fanbase", its a company using its legal rights to protect its IP. Is it a dick move? From this fans perspective, yeah, but its something they are almost legally obligated to do.

Blizzard, of World of Warcraft fame, just recently did this to alot of add-on programmers that asked for donations at their addon sites. Another example, the NFL doesn't allow bars to charge to watch their games, nor are they allowed to even advertise "Super Bowl" parties at all. Its how the IP and trademark legal system works, not bullying.

Blizzard and the NFL are billion dollar companies and they've done the same thing GW is doing. Its the nature of the trademark/IP beast.

BeefyG wrote:The statement is to the effect of ALL bloodbowl tournaments meaning they are trying to restrict the sale of non GW models at non GW tournaments now.

Somehow I don't see them winning that argument.

Sad thing is most of those being affected will roll over and die rather then do a little research and see if there is even a case for GW.

People see a big company makeing threats and assume that they will win. Big money or not, if the plaintiff (company) does not have a real case, you can sue for legal fees and other penalties.

NELS1031 wrote:GW is within their right to do this to sites that infringe(ie directly name their product in a site name) on their IP, and moreso to folks that ask for donations (profit from their IP ). Its just how the trademark and copyright laws work, as far as I know. Its not a big bad super giant company trying to "crush its fanbase", its a company using its legal rights to protect its IP. Is it a dick move? From this fans perspective, yeah, but its something they are almost legally obligated to do.

Blizzard, of World of Warcraft fame, just recently did this to alot of add-on programmers that asked for donations at their addon sites. Another example, the NFL doesn't allow bars to charge to watch their games, nor are they allowed to even advertise "Super Bowl" parties at all. Its how the IP and trademark legal system works, not bullying.

Blizzard and the NFL are billion dollar companies and they've done the same thing GW is doing. Its the nature of the trademark/IP beast.

I don't care that they are obligated to protect their IP and I get the impression that the majority of fans aren't either. Its the actions involving a complete lack of respect and simple courtesy that have the people enraged.

I also don't see how making empty threats such as the one listed above recently here: GW forbidding a Non GW company from selling Non GW miniatures at Non GW Bloodbowl events. This is simply not legal and actually qualifies as restraintment of trade.

Say what you like about them "having to do this" but the way in which they are going about it is losing them a lot of fans and regular customers. Its pretty much time for flaming torches and pitchforks in terms of the BB community.

To quote something mentioned on another forum that was quite funny:
"Next Blood Bowl players won't be able to congregate in groups of more than two in fears that we will somehow violate the IP."


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To further stir up the hornets nest about where the lines exist a post taken from Dain at www.ausbowl.com:

Quote:
The admins of a french league BBARENA (www.bbarena.net) have received the same order to Cease and Desist their website.
there's no "bloodbowl" in the domain's name so what is it? They are "just" a league using Botocs/javabowl.

It doesn't matter. GW has never repected you. They don't care what you are, think, or believe. They only care if you buy. For every customer they lose, GW will replace them with two new 13 yr olds spending lots of their parent's money. Many of those complaining now will forget about this once they see the new shiney GW release. If you give GW money, you play by their rules.

BeefyG wrote:In related news Blood-bowl.net has received their cease and desist letter along with a list of demands to Impact miniatures that includes forbidding Impact from selling their figures at Bloodbowl tournaments.

The statement is to the effect of ALL bloodbowl tournaments meaning they are trying to restrict the sale of non GW models at non GW tournaments now. Talk about a bully overstepping the mark!

What the hell do they think gives them the right? Impact does not, to my knowledge, violate Games Workshop intellectual property, the general idea of "fantasy races playing football" being free game for anyone. Also, why should GW have any say over what goes on at Blood Bowl tournaments? They're events organized by private persons or clubs completely unaffiliated with the company.

In summary, to hell with Games Workshop legal. Protecting their property is one thing, violating third party companies via legal threats is completely different.

Crimson Devil wrote:It doesn't matter. GW has never repected you. They don't care what you are, think, or believe. They only care if you buy. For every customer they lose, GW will replace them with two new 13 yr olds spending lots of their parent's money. Many of those complaining now will forget about this once they see the new shiney GW release. If you give GW money, you play by their rules.

The right course of action is clear. Boycott Games Workshop. Doesn't even matter if nothing comes of it, you'd at the very least get the benefit of a clear conscience.

BeefyG wrote:In related news Blood-bowl.net has received their cease and desist letter along with a list of demands to Impact miniatures that includes forbidding Impact from selling their figures at Bloodbowl tournaments.

Ok, this one is clearly what the hell. I hope Impact takes their asses to court. I'm all for GW trying to protect their IP but this is just bs bullying now.

BeefyG wrote:Its pretty much time for flaming torches and pitchforks in terms of the BB community.

And I'm sure those six people can really make a ruckus outside GW HQ.

You may rightly criticise how GW is going about this, but the fans who are upset are blowing things out of proportion every bit as much. If you are angry enough to quit a hobby you enjoy because a company made a website change its name, you need to calm down. Seriously.

GW have to protect their registered trademark name of Blood Bowl, or they will lose it.

I doubt they can prevent a rival company from selling rival fantastic football figures are non-GW events. As someone said above, it would be restraint of trade.

JOHIRA wrote:

BeefyG wrote:Its pretty much time for flaming torches and pitchforks in terms of the BB community.

And I'm sure those six people can really make a ruckus outside GW HQ.

You may rightly criticise how GW is going about this, but the fans who are upset are blowing things out of proportion every bit as much. If you are angry enough to quit a hobby you enjoy because a company made a website change its name, you need to calm down. Seriously.

And all that is required for evil to triumph is that good men do nothing.

If you do not at least voice dissatisfaction with this type of behaviour, larger companies will run roughshod over smaller companies, individuals, consumers and any sense of business morality or fairness.

In the U.S. you can't "trade on someone's name" which is clearly what any for-profit site with "Blood Bowl" in the name is doing. I assume IP laws are about the same or stricter elsewhere. My question is, if it was a fan site without any profit/donation involved at all would it be legal. Could I start a site called "I love Blood Bowl" where I do nothing but gush about the game?

BeefyG wrote:The admins of a french league BBARENA (www.bbarena.net) have received the same order to Cease and Desist their website. there's no "bloodbowl" in the domain's name so what is it? They are "just" a league using Botocs/javabowl.

I can't find anything about this on the site you liked to. Do you have any more information?

MeanGreenStompa wrote:And all that is required for evil to triumph is that good men do nothing.

This is exactly what I'm talking about. GW isn't "crushing its fanbase". It's shutting down a website that infringes on one of its trademarks. That's not evil triumphing. That's a company being a bit annoying.

JOHIRA wrote:

MeanGreenStompa wrote:And all that is required for evil to triumph is that good men do nothing.

This is exactly what I'm talking about. GW isn't "crushing its fanbase". It's shutting down a website that infringes on one of its trademarks. That's not evil triumphing. That's a company being a bit annoying.

If you read the original post, they are doing that AND making the following demands:

Stop infringing GW's IP. (This wasn't defined and would be crucial in a court case.)
Stop taking donations.
Confirm you will not infringe GW's IP in the future.

Another site has reported being instructed not to sell their own figures at an event where Blood Bowl is played.

All this is pretty sweeping and could probably be contested in the courts, if the people involved wanted the trouble.

GW don't have the right to stop someone taking donations unless the donations are construed as payment for items in violation of copyright.

Discussion and review of products is allowed for by the Fair Use provisions of copyright.

To prevent a company from selling its products is restraint of trade unless those products infringe on the copyright.

The people could defend themselves with little expense, and cause a lot of trouble for GW, but who wants the hassle over a bunch of toy soldiers?

McLibel had a big cause and a newsworthy story at its heart.

JOHIRA wrote:

MeanGreenStompa wrote:And all that is required for evil to triumph is that good men do nothing.

This is exactly what I'm talking about. GW isn't "crushing its fanbase". It's shutting down a website that infringes on one of its trademarks. That's not evil triumphing. That's a company being a bit annoying.

Games Workshop is supposedly a hobby based company dumping on it's customer base. It's a company based around the sales of toy soldiers acting like it's Weyland Yutani.

If I start a Blood Bowl club and recruit 24 players for a league, set up a website for news and discussion with the URL www.londonbbclub.org, hire a church hall, accept fees from members to pay for the hall and the website fees, will I get closed down by GW?

JOHIRA wrote:It's shutting down a website that infringes on one of its trademarks.

And ordering another company to not sell its own products - that comes under the banner of 'protecting trademarks' now does it?

why wouldn't they think they're all powerful? they increase the price of minis yearly at 3x the cost of inflation regardless of whether their own material cost goes down and we still buy like crazy. orson wells said something about absolute power... and that's what GW has in the realm of little grimdark toy soldiers.

It is very easy for GW to use their attack squig lawyers to bully feckless gobshites with humble websites. However, some big blogs have successfully resisted such corporate bullying. For example, Ralph Lauren threated to sue boingboing.net for posting a picture of one of its models (not the plastic kind with a bolter, but the human kind). Boingboing to RL to go feth itself because the image was posted under "fair use" guidelines. RL backed down. The point is, you either need to hire a lawyer or have one in the family and then you can call their bluff.

Kilkrazy wrote:If I start a Blood Bowl club and recruit 24 players for a league, set up a website for news and discussion with the URL www.londonbbclub.org, hire a church hall, accept fees from members to pay for the hall and the website fees, will I get closed down by GW?

You probably would, I dont know laws and courts stuff but isnt there any kind of ridiculous precedent here? What I'm saying is... since when a IPcopyright law has precedent and anulates free associativism...etc?

All this talk makes me wanna start a bloodbowl site just so I get a C&D from GW. My response to the letter would be to return it wrapped around a fish.

It would be hilarious if this caused a sudden surge in Bloodbowl related websites to spring up.

MeanGreenStompa wrote:

JOHIRA wrote:

MeanGreenStompa wrote:And all that is required for evil to triumph is that good men do nothing.

This is exactly what I'm talking about. GW isn't "crushing its fanbase". It's shutting down a website that infringes on one of its trademarks. That's not evil triumphing. That's a company being a bit annoying.

Games Workshop is supposedly a hobby based company dumping on it's customer base. It's a company based around the sales of toy soldiers acting like it's Weyland Yutani.

Weyland Yutani!

Nice reference!

And it is odd the lengths to which GW will go to "protect" its IP at times.