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Yakface and Legoburner are pretty confident in the legal position of the site.

For a start it isn't dependant on GW stuff. A lot of the content is user generated although it relates to 40K and WHFB, also there is a lot of non-GW content too.

I think it's sad that that's how they deal with their fans. Poor form.
Not suprising though.

It's crap like this that makes people develop a great dislike of GW. Oh well, I feel better now that I make my Rhino's, Predators, Landraider (soon ork vehicles) out of bass wood. I buy one GW plastic kit, then make a bunch out of wood. No, I dont do tourneys or play at a store, so GW can suck it.

It is irritating that GW is so heavy handed in their methods.
But it is understandable for them to issue this to a site now that they have the computer game to protect.
This comes under the same area as the Vassal shutdown due to Dawn of War.

GW does seem to do everything in their power to kill anything they cannot control directly.
Especially if it is related to Specialist games.


We asked our local GW for a night to play BloodBowl at the store, to try and stir up interest. We were told "no Specialist Games in the shop".

At the Chaos Cup just this October at the Chicago Battle Bunker, we had to stand outside the shop for 30 minutes because they "forgot" to come open it early.
On top of that, they had a hiring session that same Sunday and crammed us in the front tables of the Bunker with no chairs, because they were using them.
Blood Bowl is still going just from the hard-core players that are willing to put on Tournaments.
A friend ordered some BB minis through Mail Order to the local GW and it took over a month for them to get them in.

GW has earned my disdain. I no longer look forward to their games, just the miniatures and scenery.

The whole "no specialist games in the shop" thing is so stupid.

Quick change the name of the site to "pew pew"!

I wonder if they are basing their demands on use of copyrighted material through the websit?e or use of a trademarked name in the domain name

from the IPO -http://www.ipo.gov.uk/types/tm/t-about/t-faq/t-faq-infringement.htm

What is trade mark infringement?

If you use an identical or similar trade mark for identical or similar goods and services to a registered trade mark - you may be infringing the registered mark if your use creates a likelihood of confusion on the part of the public.

This includes the case where because of the similarities between the marks the public are led to the mistaken belief that the trade marks, although different, identify the goods or services of one and the same trader.

Where the registered mark has a significant reputation, infringement may also arise from the use of the same or a similar mark which, although not causing confusion, damages or takes unfair advantage of the reputation of the registered mark.

This can occasionally arise from the use of the same or similar mark for goods or services which are dissimilar to those covered by the registration of the registered mark.

I am undecided whether the site falls foul of this or not.

The site has been up for 9 years and is just getting this letter now.... soon after a bloodbowl computer game was released. I would not be surprised if this was because of a contractual obligation with Cyanide or at their request.

Kilkrazy wrote:Yakface and Legoburner are pretty confident in the legal position of the site.

For a start it isn't dependant on GW stuff. A lot of the content is user generated although it relates to 40K and WHFB, also there is a lot of non-GW content too.

Note the TM next to the dakka logo - that is not for decoration, we own the legal US trademark for dakka dakka, so nobody can release a game or website named after our trademark without our express permission. Likewise we cant be shut down in that context for that reason.

legoburner wrote:

Kilkrazy wrote:Yakface and Legoburner are pretty confident in the legal position of the site.

For a start it isn't dependant on GW stuff. A lot of the content is user generated although it relates to 40K and WHFB, also there is a lot of non-GW content too.

Note the TM next to the dakka logo - that is not for decoration, we own the legal US trademark for dakka dakka, so nobody can release a game or website named after our trademark without our express permission. Likewise we cant be shut down in that context for that reason.

*eagerly awaits the C&D to GW from Yak'n'Burner on that fateful day...*

I'm not saying you SHOULD do this, but if it were me, I would make them sue. I would ignore them until such a time as I started receiving actual court dates and tangible, real threats, then I (acting pro se) would do everything to stall or postpone the process for as long as I could. This action dosn't cost you anything but a bit of time and some sad stories ( I can't be in court this day or that day because gramma is very ill, I spilled liquor in my underwear drawer, and my cat has clymidia,etc..) ; however your opponent will be paying several hundred dollars an hour to their attorney (or attorney's?) A more financialy powerful entity, even when not in the right, will often times drag you through court just because they know they can "out-spend" you. Even if stall tactics don't ultimately make them get tired of screwing with you, they will cost them money, and kicking them in their greasy little sacks (as in - sacks that they keep their money in) is better than just rolling over and complying. But then, thats just what I would do, and I only know the legal system from one perspective, and not usualy the one you want to be on.

MeanGreenStompa wrote:

legoburner wrote:

Kilkrazy wrote:Yakface and Legoburner are pretty confident in the legal position of the site.

For a start it isn't dependant on GW stuff. A lot of the content is user generated although it relates to 40K and WHFB, also there is a lot of non-GW content too.

Note the TM next to the dakka logo - that is not for decoration, we own the legal US trademark for dakka dakka, so nobody can release a game or website named after our trademark without our express permission. Likewise we cant be shut down in that context for that reason.

*eagerly awaits the C&D to GW from Yak'n'Burner on that fateful day...*

That's Mr. Face and Mr. Burner to you!

Naw, I think Yak'n'Burner Inc. has great potential...

Just like in the Rocky Horror Picture Show, Dr Yak'n'Burner I presume?

Just to let some people know... GW has probably gotten the exact same IP legal advice that my company has received....in fact I know they did at one time.

Basically it comes down to 3 things.....

1) They are legally allowed to make him change his name/stop taking donations on their IP....This is a basic tenant of law. (they would have to go and prove it, and he may be able to get out of it for any number of reasons ... ie gw designers helping before, flat income (no profit), etc.- but they could)

2) They do own Blood Bowl, and are still using it in mini sales (as slim and unrepresented as they may be.), and through licensing for a new xbox game.

3) The part of advice that they received, and I recently received in my office - (hey maybe they lied, but they cost $400/hr.) - basically comes down to this......

If you don't DEFEND your IP, then you can lose its "use" over time. In fact if you just let everybody off, then you'll have no legal recourse when you do WANT to challenge it.

In other words, when GW went after the company that was turning out badly done minis with GW bits cast out of horrible metal, they could not have won/had the molds seized unless they had been shown to be ACTIVELY DEFENDING their IP......

That is the facts as I know them from attorney's. Though of course, the whole system seems slanted to the attorney's don't it? Keep spending money/time on us or you might lose the ability to win..... But that is ANOTHER discussion.

Also, maybe they are just now re-planning on releasing blood bowl again, like space hulk. A combi- Bloodbowl/deathzone ltd edition with new plastics made in china....? and since they are now doing the planning, they then decided to send it out..... (this I don't know- maybe hoping?)

Yup. Sounds like we've got it summed at this point.

Active IP defense + used the trademarked name in the name of the site / web address + new computer game just came out = this letter.

If he cared enough to change over to a different-named web address, and remove any GW copyright images, he'd probably be all set. But from the sounds of it he lost real passion and interest in the site a while ago, and doesn't presently feel like it's worth the hassle.

pixelgeek wrote:

Chapterhouse wrote:I beg to differ, they cannot selectively prosecute one site and let others go, this leads to a legal precedent not in favor of GW.

What planet are you living on where lawyers only threaten legal action if and only if they have a valid case?

This industry, and most others, is rife with examples of large companies threatening legal action against private individuals and small companies in which they do not have a valid case but in which they threaten to sue to stop purported illegal usage of IP or copyrights.

You are right that they can't do this but clearly we are seeing this happen so they do in fact do it.

Not having legal justification for something has never stopped a company from doing this sort of thing.

Do a Google/wiki search for SLAAP lawsuits for a nice primer on the corporate history of this

I Agree. Copyrights have grown well past what they were originally meant for and are now used to as a means to threaten and abuse people. It's time we give them good long looking at and either put limits on what can be done with it or remove these powers all together.

Mannahnin wrote:Active IP defense + used the trademarked name in the name of the site / web address + new computer game just came out = this letter.

There are ways to protect your IP that don't involve you being a dick to your fans.

Just because you have the right to protect something doesn't mean that you need to step on someone's neck to do it.

however your opponent will be paying several hundred dollars an hour to their attorney (or attorney's?)

I would think most of them are on retainer.

I am not sure if any of you guys remember when VW decided to finally come out with a new version of the Bug. All the fan sites that had the VW symbol or a picture of an old air cooled bug or even something that resembled it were strong armed out of business. They strong armed many of their own fan sites out of existence and sued those that did not quit...and won most of those. You have to remember that some of these fan sites had been around for 30 years as posting club newsletters and such until the internet. The key was they went after everyone and not just nit picking some here and there.

In this instance GW really loses a lot of steam since it is provable that their own guys were contributing to the site. This shows some level of acceptance towards the site and puts GW on VERY shaky ground. Plus the fact that they seem to pick and choose whom they go after really weakens them as well. To show IP protection means across the board and not just the low hanging easy fruit.

GW has always been threatened by the interwebs.

I think the price increase has to deal with us people, who pay for CHEAP(er) prices on the net lol.

This kind of bs, along with their inability to write rules, is why I dont buy models anymore.

pixelgeek wrote:

Chapterhouse wrote:I beg to differ, they cannot selectively prosecute one site and let others go, this leads to a legal precedent not in favor of GW.

What planet are you living on where lawyers only threaten legal action if and only if they have a valid case?

This industry, and most others, is rife with examples of large companies threatening legal action against private individuals and small companies in which they do not have a valid case but in which they threaten to sue to stop purported illegal usage of IP or copyrights.

You are right that they can't do this but clearly we are seeing this happen so they do in fact do it.

Not having legal justification for something has never stopped a company from doing this sort of thing.

Do a Google/wiki search for SLAAP lawsuits for a nice primer on the corporate history of this

The documentary McLible is a good example.

theHandofGork wrote:The site has been up for 9 years and is just getting this letter now.... soon after a bloodbowl computer game was released. I would not be surprised if this was because of a contractual obligation with Cyanide or at their request.

this is most likely the case, especially in light of how Vassal was shut down. I'd bet an arbitrarily large amount of money that the developer of the video game wants google hits going to forums discussing the video game, not the table top game.

I also don't think that pointing out that all the owner had to do was change the name was a huge insult on his dedication. We get that he's tired from running the site, and appreciate his work, but it's not like the request was ridiculously arduous.

Polonius wrote:

theHandofGork wrote:The site has been up for 9 years and is just getting this letter now.... soon after a bloodbowl computer game was released. I would not be surprised if this was because of a contractual obligation with Cyanide or at their request.

this is most likely the case, especially in light of how Vassal was shut down. I'd bet an arbitrarily large amount of money that the developer of the video game wants google hits going to forums discussing the video game, not the table top game.
I also don't think that pointing out that all the owner had to do was change the name was a huge insult on his dedication. We get that he's tired from running the site, and appreciate his work, but it's not like the request was ridiculously arduous.

given that a lot of those forums are complaining about bugs in the game maybe not

Lol, possibly, although I still think that while GW could have done a better job of explaining why they did this, I'm not sure this is really the screw job it appears at first glance.

I don't care if GW is in the legal right, it makes no sense. IP laws are crap.

Cane wrote:Never heard of 'em but I don't play Blood Bowl either.

Can't say I like a big company going after its fans but one can understand why they do what they do.

Well I'm glad it makes sense to someone, because I sure as hell don't understand it...

Kane wrote:given that a lot of those forums are complaining about bugs in the game maybe not

And that is different from Dakka in what way?

I think most of the complaints are about differences between the game and the Tabletop version.
Especially wit hregards to hte kickoff table.
I have personally run into very few glitches or bugs.
It is a game that gets sluggish the longer you play though.

NAVARRO wrote:HyrbidNecro

No its just a question of using common sense, if the result of 9 year investment is a blind slap from those you promote pro bono then only a fool would continue the effort.

Something tells me people dont have a clue of what kind of investement maintaining a site is.
Believe me creating a site and keeping it updated is a fulltime job and drains much money if you are not carefull.

Don't get me wrong I completely understand maintaining and running a site is a huge effort and is a culmination of hard work and money out of pocket but my point I was trying to make is if it was such a huge thing to keep after it and update and such then why even start it? He willingly put a licensed GW name in his sites name, it's all legal mumbo jumbo but he should have had the common sense to give a different name that wouldn't bite him in the a*% later on. I dont care how comfortable the company gets with you, one day in the distant future, their legal department will shake their fist at you and give you a hassle. I've seen it so many times and I know it wont end with this one. And yes it is a slap to the gonads but GW is not a mom and pop business (at least not anymore) they've grown a thousand times more then most miniature companies. They are everywhere now and things change, legal departments evolve. It's the nature of the beast (a very large beast with little gnoblar lawyers who stab the fans in the groin when their not looking). Oh and he had a donations button on the site, HUGE bullseye for lawyers.

agnosto wrote:Quick change the name of the site to "pew pew"!

That's just silly. Wasn't Dakka the site responsible for Fzorgle? We should now be called Fzorglefzorgle.

pixelgeek wrote:

Mannahnin wrote:Active IP defense + used the trademarked name in the name of the site / web address + new computer game just came out = this letter.

There are ways to protect your IP that don't involve you being a dick to your fans.

Just because you have the right to protect something doesn't mean that you need to step on someone's neck to do it.

Welcome to the Internet Age.